143 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

it means that these rules don't forbid intentional non-accidental suicide if you don't join for the sole purpose of it

[Zordicron]

My thoughts:

if you want to play this out as tactical, it sounds to me like ROLE PLAY.

Good show, I wish we had more of that in MWO. We know PGI isnt going to be adding any remarkable amount of lore fluff to the game, at least not for a looong time, so it is up to the players.

that said, I do not think you should role play in this sense in a pug match. Role play, tactical etc, in a unit it is 100% good, even a positive IMO. get a big enough RP unit going, pass the hat, set up private matches, have some one keep track of materials, mechs, ammo, etc, you could, in theory, set up a repair and rearm of your own, along with tracking pilots etc. make campaigns and allow "in unit lances" a certain tonnage to drop in, give the lances a commander, and let them private match. A tactical retreat means the mech is saved, and can be used in the next "mission".

In a pug match, you can do ZERO of those things, and running out of bounds just makes you lose rewards, PLUS, gips the enemy players of rewards. It is simply good sport to "fight it out" when you are basically dropping in public "quickplay" or, "instant action" as some games put it.

Again, role play= super awesome. BUT, you need to set it up in a unit. bringing RP ideas into pug matches will just piss some players off, even if it isnt really trolling etc. it's instant action team deathmatch, drop hot and go out blazing. RP in a unit in private matches, get some record keepers.


You know, people really could go at this like a Dungeons and Dragons style with a "supreme commander"(DM) and do "at home" record keeping to set up battles in private matches to manage things.... you know, a "do it yourself" version of what all the dreamers wish CW could do for us.

[Novakaine]

The only real reason to run outta bounds kid.
Is when it's 3 minutes into a match and 3/4 of your team is already dead.
And the rest is disco'd.

[1453 R]

The issue you're running into, AP, is that the game mechanics actively reward you for going out in a blaze of glory rather than engaging in a retreat or withdraw. Every point of damage you do is another C-bill or point of XP, damage you take is utterly meaningless once the match is over. There's no R&R (for very, very good reasons, mind), and regular queue matches - or CW matches, for that matter - have no overarching economy in which 'preserving war materiel' is a primary factor.

Essentially? Your 'Mech is free, your teammates' 'Mechs are free, your enemies' 'Mechs are free. BattleMechs are, in fact, as cheap as they come. You get a brand new one for every match. Why not ride it into the ground and earn every bit of resource you can with it?

While I certainly understand, and in fact agree with, the desire for a tactical retreat option that isn't 'blow oneself up', people who're less into stories/roleplaying, or who were never soldiers, don't understand why someone would deny themselves those few extra points of C-bills/XP, and get frustrated when those few C-bills or XP are denied to them for what they perceive to be no good reason.

Oh well. We'll never get a proper 'Tac Withdraw' option in this game anyways, so do what you have to until Piranha specifically tells you otherwise.

[InspectorG]

Fenrisulvyn, on 16 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

2) conversely, on large maps like Tourmaline or Terra Therma, running out of bounds is legit because it saves the other team time trying to cover distance to get to you.

OR...

If a brawler build, go TOWARDS the enemy dragging one to death with you?

if a range or sniper you could, you know, snipe them at range and vulture their weak.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"a brawler build, go TOWARDS the enemy dragging one to death with you? if a range or sniper you could, you know, snipe them at range and vulture their weak."

Sure, that's what I always do. But I've spectated games where its a crit Firestarter vs a Dire/Crab/Crab lumbering their way across the map. I don' fault the pilot for bringing the game to a close. Its his decision on whether its worth drawing out.

[InspectorG]

Novakaine, on 16 June 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

The only real reason to run outta bounds kid.
Is when it's 3 minutes into a match and 3/4 of your team is already dead.
And the rest is disco'd.

I had a match in Conquest once where my 'team' neglected any caps and decided to brawl...rather poorly, downstairs in HPG.

I capped 2 caps in a Thunderbolt 5SS, all by myself and then realized i was last man standing.
So i went to the basement to die.

Good thing i did.

I solo'd 3 enemies(Timby, Firestarter, Thunderbolt) in my rather fresh Thunderwub and the remaining opponent ran and hid...

WE WON on caps.

Good thing i didnt go suicide out of bounds. Good thing the opponent got scared.(likely good for him/her, my Wubs was on that day)

'Tactical Retreat' would have cost the match.

[Fleeb the Mad]

If people could withdraw from matches, I think you'd see play quality deteriorate.

As soon as an enemy team picked up an early match advantage, I'd see at least a couple friendlies booking it and making it extremely difficult to attempt to recover. Snowball effect would largely sink the team.

There could be some great fighting retreats, But I don't think you'd get that by making retreat possible.

I do, however, think that you could change the mechanics to make games more fun for survivors in doomed games. I, personally, would trigger a Holdout Mode once the enemy gained sufficient advantage. Dramatically reduce the match timer, give a bonus to anyone who manages to survive to the end, or take an enemy with them.

[InspectorG]

Fleeb the Mad, on 16 June 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

If people could withdraw from matches, I think you'd see play quality deteriorate.

As soon as an enemy team picked up an early match advantage,...

EXACTLY.

Enemy gets a 3 mech lead?
Enemy has lots of LRM?

Im taking my ball and going home.

[Xmith]

Running out of bounds is more peaceful.

Not doing so is like facing a pack of lions tearing you limb from limb.

[Mystere]

TWIAFU, on 16 June 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

Official PGI position, the ONLY one that matters, is;

Exploiting / Griefing / Non-Participation

Our definition of Exploiting / Griefing includes:

Wilfully or repeatedly destroying Teammate or Lancemate 'Mechs.
Wilfully or repeatedly self-destructing one's 'Mech by Overheating or going Out-of-Bounds
Wilfully or repeatedly disconnecting during a match.
Wilfully or repeatedly spamming in-game chat.
Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics.
Wilfully or repeatedly taking advantage of an issue for personal gain.

http://mwomercs.com/...nduct-expanded/

Willfully going out of bounds, at all, is Non-participation and reportable.

Enough reports, verified by PGI, and a warning is issued. Continued violations and banning.

People always miss, or conveniently ignore, one very important caveat: it only applies during instances of non-participation. In other words, you are in violation only if you did not participate in the fight.

Average Pilot, on 16 June 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

TWIAFU... Thank you for the link to the PGI COC. So, by letter of the "law", as it were, intentional or repeated self-destruction of a mech during a match, if reported, could result in drawing the ire of the game moderators. Understood - that's what I needed to know.

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 16 June 2015 - 08:40 PM.

[Average Pilot]

Eldagore, on 16 June 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

In a pug match, you can do ZERO of those things, and running out of bounds just makes you lose rewards, PLUS, gips the enemy players of rewards. It is simply good sport to "fight it out" when you are basically dropping in public "quickplay" or, "instant action" as some games put it.

I recall an earlier responder that also mentioned s/he felt it was unfair to deny the enemy player of reward for their actions. However, you could also argue that the point of warfare, in addition to destroying the enemy and their resources, is to deny him your own resources; in the case of out of bounds after participating in combat and your team is decimated, denying the enemy their last salvage c-bills because you were able to escape before being taken down. You could take that in a role-playing vein or a simple game mechanics one; both would be valid outcomes in my mind.

I actually had a last-man enemy player in a Firestarter retreat in match today on Frozen City where he was facing eight of our mechs, and I didn't blame him one bit for doing it.

Edited by Average Pilot, 16 June 2015 - 09:02 PM.

[Average Pilot]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

I solo'd 3 enemies(Timby, Firestarter, Thunderbolt) in my rather fresh Thunderwub and the remaining opponent ran and hid...

Good thing i didnt go suicide out of bounds. Good thing the opponent got scared.(likely good for him/her, my Wubs was on that day)

'Tactical Retreat' would have cost the match.

I've had those matches as well; it's always a judgement call to retreat (for me). There are two matches in particular, one in a Raven sniper (Canyon) and another in a 6xSPLSR Locust (Bog) where I've managed to snap up four enemy mechs after the rest of the team was taken down, in part because they had taken such a beating and in part because they had poor situational awareness (sniping with the Raven).

Edited by Average Pilot, 16 June 2015 - 08:59 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

you shouldn't justify yourself for denying, it's not a give away c-bill grind fest, if they want those c-bills they should earn them

[Alistair Winter]

I really wish tactical retreat was a part of this game. I know we can't have total realism, but it just feels very far removed from real warfare when your teammates are chanting for you to kill yourself so they can move on to the next match.

That being said, I'm not sure how you would be able to implement a tactical retreat in a game like this. It seems like getting the dropships to drop off mechs was a huge undertaking, so I can't imagine how many years it would take before we could actually board dropships and fly to safety, like the intro of MW2:Mercs.

You could just let people power down outside the boundaries of the map and then slowly fade them to invisibility, I suppose. It would suck if they just stood outside the boundaries of the map in full visibility, like the MWO equivalent of a 'free parking' spot in Monopoly.

Of course, some people would abuse it. Some people would just run off the map whenever they were losing. But that's an inevitable problem of 12v12 anyway. As soon as your team is down 0-4, people give up. They either suicide, run off to chase an isolated target or just go to hide and power down. At least we would have a lot fewer matches where 23 players are waiting because some Spider powered down somewhere.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Like I said I don't think people who always run out of bounds should get a pass but I reserve the option when the other team is being unsportsmanlike. Just watch the chat window. If you see bragging, put downs or the team acting like peacocks I am not giving them the score.

It's a two way street. If you want a good fair fight I am always game. If your into Steamrolls and put downs expect to be denied.

[Joseph Mallan]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Some fragile egos out there just cant handle someone else killing them.

These are the people you obviously want on your team.

Fragile? So admitting defeat and leaving the field of battle is a fragile Ego? Whats the saying about discretion and valor?

[627]

from a roleplaying standpoint, only the liaos are allowed to run away imho...

[GreyNovember]

bad arcade kitty, on 16 June 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

you shouldn't justify yourself for denying, it's not a give away c-bill grind fest, if they want those c-bills they should earn them

On the other side of the coin, if you've already clearly lost the match, why would you make it more difficult for someone else?

I like to be a horrible person as much as any of us, but there is a point wherein it isn't fun anymore.

[Raggedyman]

Average Pilot, on 16 June 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Also remembering the BT addage that "life is cheap; battlemechs aren't", it makes sense for a character in the game to want to retreat from a hopelessly outnumbered engagement and save his mech for another day rather than become dispossessed.

If there were upkeep costs for your mechs then it would be viable, as there aren't then running away is mostly just a daft thing to do unless you are worried about your stats. Get stuck in, get more damage, get more CBills IMO. Then again: your game, your plan, your play.