53 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

OK since Russ is going to look at jump jets post your best ideas to fix them.


--

My personal ideas...

1. Make them about adding very good agility.

2. Add a little bit of shake on the way down so they PGI does not have to worry about jump sniping and limit them because of it.

3. Make 1 -2 jump jets much less effective. Make 3+ jump jets much more effective. Like they were before the nerf.

I like this because it is simple and easy to add to the game. And it covers all of the problems with the current jump jets. The jump gets before the nerf worked fine. It was only the jump sniping that was really a problem.

[Gas Guzzler]

JUST FIX THE CLASS 1s. Don't distract it with others... the others are really not bad...

Its just the Class 1s that are terrible and extra heavy.

And for the love of god stop suggesting reticle shake on the way down, I don't want that idea in their head. I would literally rather leave all how they are then take away the ability to use JJs effectively in a brawl.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 June 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Ryokens leap]

Get an independent contractor to do a redesign.

[Hit the Deck]

Because people complaints seems to be about the "hovering" nature of JJs, it would make sense to buff the acceleration. I think the sluggishness is the main complaint although they didn't always explicitly state what's wrong with JJs. Personally I agree with this sentiment and I want jumping to be more forceful and done in huge burst.

I actually wish that they rework them and implement another mechanism for JJs but this should be easy to do relatively quick.

As for how much they should buff the acceleration, maybe about 20-30% for all classes? I'm not really sure about this and I can't test it out.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 18 June 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

As a baseline to start...

*Keep reticule shake

* Restore JJ height to original max heights before all the nerfing.

* The heavier the mech, the slower it accelerates upward. Lights stay agile and leapy, Assaults slowly ascend into the sky.

*The heavier the mech, the longer it takes for the JJ fuel to recharge. Lights recharge very fast (empty to full in about 3 seconds), Assaults recharge very slow (from empty to full in about 10 seconds).

[cSand]

If 2 happens I will quit the game


Reticle shake on the way down is stupid, and punishes non-poptarts, JJ brawlers, and basically everyone who uses JJ's, with a arbitrary and insanely mechtarded mechanic

sorry to the OP, I mean no offense to you personally


Sometimes I thank the good mech-lord that Russ doesn't come to the forums.... because of ideas like that one

Edited by cSand, 18 June 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

As a baseline to start...

*Keep reticule shake

* Restore JJ height to original max heights before all the nerfing.

* The heavier the mech, the slower it accelerates upward. Lights stay agile and leapy, Assaults slowly ascend into the sky.

*The heavier the mech, the longer it takes for the JJ fuel to recharge. Lights recharge very fast (empty to full in about 3 seconds), Assaults recharge very slow (from empty to full in about 10 seconds).

How quickly they ascend should be based on ratio of JJ weight to Mech weight. The 90-100 tonners have Jumpjets that weigh 4 times as much as lights, but the mechs themselves weigh less than 4 times the weight of say a Jenner or FS9. In all honesty, I have no complaints for how JJ perform with the exception of the Class 1s. They are so much worse then the rest but you have to sacrifice a higher percentage of weight. If they are going to buff anything, it should be those. Lights and mediums jump fine if you put enough jets in. The Mist Lynx is a rocket.

[XtremWarrior]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

*The heavier the mech, the longer it takes for the JJ fuel to recharge. Lights recharge very fast (empty to full in about 3 seconds), Assaults recharge very slow (from empty to full in about 10 seconds).

I think maybe the numbers of JJ should affect the rate at which they refill.
So 1-2 JJs can get you real jumps but a slow refill as a downside.
3-4 JJs get you bigger Jumps (ofc) and also a better refill so you can use them more.

I think 1 or 2 Jets should be usefull without negating the option to take max. Refill seems like a good value to toy with.

[Andi Nagasia]

I think what they should do is double your jump jet fuel,
Then make jump jets scale exponentially to how many you have,
Example, 1 = 1, 2 = 2.5, 3 = 4, 4 = 5.5, and so on,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 June 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[ozmodion]

Ryokens leap, on 18 June 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Get an independent contractor to do a redesign.

but it will take longer so they drag out the contract and get more money

[MeiSooHaityu]

XtremWarrior, on 18 June 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

I think maybe the numbers of JJ should affect the rate at which they refill.
So 1-2 JJs can get you real jumps but a slow refill as a downside.
3-4 JJs get you bigger Jumps (ofc) and also a better refill so you can use them more.

I think 1 or 2 Jets should be usefull without negating the option to take max. Refill seems like a good value to toy with.

Its more of a starting point and very high level.

The biggest thing in my mind is that Heavies and Assaults should have JJs for terrain navigation. If I have to get up on a plateau in Canyon Network with a Heavy or Assault, I should be able to reasonably, but I'm not going to be able to continually leap into the air and rip off shots.

Basically the heavier mechs accelerate upward slower so they stay exposed to fire longer before their arms clear the cover in front of them.

Secondly, they can't really maintain a constant rate if fire by JJing because the JJs won't recharge quick enough to maintain fire through jump sniping.

The numbers need to adjust depending on how many JJs are equipped, but the general theme highlighted above should stay intact.

Basically, big mechs can go vertical instead of hover, but they do it slower and less frequently so as not to be practical for good jump sniping performance.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 18 June 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

Class I seems to be the biggest problem. Executioner has 8 tons of JJ's, yet has trouble jumping up on platforms on the mining collective.

To fix JJ's I'd suggest a speed based jumping mechanic as told by gifs:

1. If a mech is at a running speed and hits JJ's, 0-10% vertical bonus--hoverjets remain pretty much as is

Didn't jump high, jumped long

2. If a mech is at a walking speed and hits JJ's 50% of vertical jump bonus

Jumped higher, not as long

3. If a mech is stopped and hits JJ's, 100% of vertical jump bonus

Jump high, not long

4. If a mech is falling, no vertical bonus

Silly locust, you cannot fly

The jump bonus would need a slight delay and crouch from the mech as if it were actually leaping (yes, mechs can jump without jumpjets, they just don't stay off the ground very long). The vertical bonus would come as a bonus to vertical acceleration, instantly accelerating the mech to 3-5 m/s in the vertical direction (value to be tuned for balance).

I am for either reticule shake or lagging control response while falling, as the mech needs to remain balanced (see last gif for dude flailing arms to stay upright).

[Hit the Deck]

Big Tin Man, on 18 June 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

Class I seems to be the biggest problem. Executioner has 8 tons of JJ's, yet has trouble jumping up on platforms on the mining collective.
....

Sorry for going off tangent but EXE doesn't have this problem (this is also valid in the Mining Collective). Maybe you were too close from the wall when making the jump. About 40-60m away from the wall would give you no difficulty from reaching to the top.

[Almond Brown]

Ryokens leap, on 18 June 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Get an independent contractor to do a redesign.

Or any one of the myriad of Forum "Armchair Developers" could do it too, like in 10 minutes.

[Greenjulius]

While in the air, accuracy just needs to be very poor, then we can bring back jumpjets to where they've been in previous mechwarrior games.

[Krivvan]

Increase JJ impulse and have it scale more than linearly when adding more JJs. Done. Keep the acceleration slow, but allow for actual height if you hold it long enough.

Basically, get closer to how they used to jump in the poptart era, but require multiple JJs to get that performance. With how the meta is now, those poptart builds won't be nearly as dominant as they were then.

Remember that we didn't have quirks or clan mechs during the poptart era.

Edited by Krivvan, 18 June 2015 - 10:04 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

Hit the Deck, on 18 June 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Sorry for going off tangent but EXE doesn't have this problem (this is also valid in the Mining Collective). Maybe you were too close from the wall when making the jump. About 40-60m away from the wall would give you no difficulty from reaching to the top.

Maybe it was pilot error, I am new to jumping assaults, but I was 0 for 6 on making jumps last night in the EXE. Jumps that I easily have made in mechs which have less vertical capacity according to smurfy's. Something about this isn't right.

[Water Bear]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 June 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

I would literally rather leave all how they are then take away the ability to use JJs effectively in a brawl.

Ok wait. The only time I see jump jets used in a brawl are when a jumper is so close to his target that they jump high enough to prevent the target from getting torso weapons on the jumper. At those short ranges reticle shake won't prevent you from hitting the guy you're jumping over, it just makes your shots less accurate, which seems OK.

Other than that I can't think of a use for jump jets in a brawl other than tapping to abuse the animation. 99% of the time someone uses their jets at short range, it doesn't make them much more difficult to hit than twhen they were on the gorund.

[Krivvan]

Water Bear, on 18 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Other than that I can't think of a use for jump jets in a brawl other than tapping to abuse the animation. 99% of the time someone uses their jets at short range, it doesn't make them much more difficult to hit than twhen they were on the gorund.

JJs give you turn rate bonuses and allow for you to maintain a vector preserving momentum while still turning. It's much more apparent when you watch a Light mech fight as you need to keep a direction but you also need to prepare for a sudden course change or you hit your torso twist limit.

They're also crucial for taking terrain shortcuts and being able to disengage from fights easier. On other maps like Canyon it means getting into closer range much faster and, like you mentioned, allows you to take advantage of height differences against mechs that are mostly torso-based (like how the Urbanmech is able to be closely matched to a Firestarter even though it has less firepower on paper).

Pay attention to point blank duels like this one:



Then pay attention to the jump jet gauge throughout it. I am constantly using the jump jets for every little turn, for when I want to prolong my position at a certain height, when I want to move up the hill faster, exploit the lack of torso pitch on Firestarters, and etc. Without the JJs, there's no way my Urbanmech would win any close range fights against SPL Firestarters.

That video is also an example of a case where I put on more than 1 JJ.

If you're saying that this only applies to Light mechs then, well, you're somewhat right. The benefits of JJs on heavier mechs just aren't where they should be.

EDIT: Added video

Edited by Krivvan, 18 June 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Make class 1s follow the same rule as everything else.

Make JJs a straight up X height per jet linear relationship, rather than giving the first jet extra height.

In the vein of previous, I'd rather have acceleration and lift rate remain the same, regardless of number of jets. More jets just give more burn time from fuel gauge. Default flight time longer for higher classes of jets. Also make the full gauge recharge in the same amount of time regardless of number jets (for the same chassis). Quirks available: extra JJ thrust (%), extra JJ burn time (and thus height, %), extra JJ recharge rate (%).

Example (numbers extracted rectally):
1 class 5 gives 5m height over 1second maximum burn
1 class 3 gives 5m height over 2second maximum burn
1 class 1 gives 5m height over 3second maximum burn
2 class 1 gives 10m height over 6second maximum burn

This solution leaves 1 jet able to feel like it's actually giving you lift, while still giving large and tangible benefits from higher numbers of jets, and giving lights and mediums faster jumping than assaults.