48 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

With the release of the ebon, Clans have hit a new low in terms of internal balance. Clan mechs with FF\Endo rule the roost, while the rest hover between solid and mediocre. Most of my IS stable has the same issue, but for clans, the ability to unlock these upgrades would make a huge difference. Fixing internal balance on IS side will simply take a dozen more quirk passes, since PGI refuses to rescale any of the drastically oversized IS mediums\heavies.

EDIT: Just unlock Clan upgrades, give it a month, and give IS several more quirk passes.

Edited by LordBraxton, 19 June 2015 - 08:40 AM.

[Ultimax]

Not being able to remove ferro won't help a lot of the mechs that need to swap it for endo, like the Warhawk, for example.

[Widowmaker1981]

Id kind of agree, except something would need to be done about how the crits allocate. A huge and overlooked balancing feature caused by locked ES and FF on clans is the immovable crits - take a Banshee 3E with ES for example - all the ES crits will be in the expendable shield arms, with ammo stored in the legs. Clan mechs tend to force you to put ammo in bad places (legs are ideal because the ammo gets used last in leg locations)

[LordBraxton]

I mean I'd be ok with unlocking them in general. If someone can come up with a build that makes the Ebon far more powerful WITHOUT ferro Id be surprised. The issue is that clan ferro+endo is amazing due to tiny slot requirement. IS will never be able to touch that, but leaving it locked only on the best clan mechs leaves clans with internal balance, and PGI forced to balance IS by using the hellbie\twolf\scrow\ebon\etc as the metric, and leave mechs like the summoner in the trash heap with victors etc.

[Juodas Varnas]

I say unlock it for all Clan mechs.

It's not going to change the Clan vs IS balance *much* anyway.
It'd mostly change the balance between different Clan chassis, which is (currently) pretty darn bad. (Though to be honest, intra-IS balance isn't much better)

[Andi Nagasia]

The thing is swapping ferro to endo on let's say the warhawk is canon,
It has happened before and been allowed by the TT game rules before,
(Ferro To Endo Upgrade Swapping For Omni-Mechs! Discussion!)
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 20 June 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I agree with unlocking it in general, I was just throwing an idea out to come to a compromise since PGI doesnt seem to like the idea of unlocking clan upgrades.

My favorite clan mechs are summoner n gargles... who would both be helped greatly. My new EXE could use endo as well.

IS internal balance is going to take another quirk pass. (or 10) Ill never understand why PGI buffed mechs like the Thud so hard, but left already trash tier mechs like the kintaro in the dirt.

Edited by LordBraxton, 19 June 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[Water Bear]

You know, yea. I don't play clans, but if all their mechs were equally powerful that wouldn't make the current situation (of IS vs clan balance) any worse since the top would stay the top.

[LordBraxton]

Exactly Water Bear! I know my fellow Lyrans would rather have more variety in what we face against organized clan groups.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Give all clan mechs access to all upgrades (except engines), then change IS XLs to be the same as Clan XLs, and then once all mechs have been brought up to a level playing field (clan mechs to their brothers via endo/FF and IS mechs to clan mechs via quirks and XL changes), armor values will get increased to keep TTK reasonable.

Edited by Kristian Radoulov, 19 June 2015 - 09:00 AM.

[Mechteric]

Ultimatum X, on 19 June 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Not being able to remove ferro won't help a lot of the mechs that need to swap it for endo, like the Warhawk, for example.

I think he's saying (or should be saying if not), that clan mechs should be allowed to put on and take off endo and ferro as desired. This is because of the mechs like the Warhawk, Nova, Summoner, who are at a disadvantage because they have ferro but no endo.

As a primarily IS player, I support this.

[DarthHias]

+1

[Jabilac]

I never understood why they didn't put different rated engines in the different variants. One "Standard", One "Slower", and One "faster" would allow some versatility in builds and have the CT for each variant matter. Now its just omni-pod your mechs the same while you master them.. At least then there would be some customization.

[Mcgral18]

Mr Gargles can easily fit both, giving him +4 tons.

PeaceDove and Gladiator can get +1.5 to +2 tons from simply swapping them, retaining the same crit slots.


Nova is in a different boat, Endo lets him take a ballistic...but Endo and upgrading to a 300XL would only cost him a half ton and a single crit slot...TT construction wasn't kind to him (as the 300 follows TT construction rules)

[Widowmaker1981]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 June 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think he's saying (or should be saying if not), that clan mechs should be allowed to put on and take off endo and ferro as desired. This is because of the mechs like the Warhawk, Nova, Summoner, who are at a disadvantage because they have ferro but no endo.

As a primarily IS player, I support this.

Do you think the crits should be dynamic? as that would be a gigantic buff to clans, and would turn the hellbringer into something.. terrifying (~5 more tons to play with and literally zero cost as you end up forcing all the ES/FF crits into the arms with no weapons in)

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Certain locked equipment needs to be unlocked.

Two of the top three already have ferro and endo, the upcoming top Clan light will already have ferro and endo and the Direwhale already has 50.5 tons of space for guns without the need for ferro or endo.

If mechs like the Summoner, Nova, Gargoyle, and Executioner had unlocked JJs, ferro, and endo they wouldn't be the Clans red-headed step children.

[Water Bear]

Kristian Radoulov, on 19 June 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Give all clan mechs access to all upgrades (except engines), then change IS XLs to be the same as Clan XLs, and then once all mechs have been brought up to a level playing field (clan mechs to their brothers via endo/FF and IS mechs to clan mechs via quirks and XL changes), armor values will get increased to keep TTK reasonable.

While that would put everything on a level playing field, it would also imply that certain clan chassis have been noticeably OP for quite a long time.

[LordBraxton]

Im going to need to meditate on the dynamic nature of the slots... Im thinking some of the slots should be floating, but atleast 1 should be locked to each side torso and arm, maybe 2 for each side torso. It would make it a pretty big decision on some mechs.

[cSand]

Kristian Radoulov, on 19 June 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Give all clan mechs access to all upgrades (except engines), then change IS XLs to be the same as Clan XLs, and then once all mechs have been brought up to a level playing field (clan mechs to their brothers via endo/FF and IS mechs to clan mechs via quirks and XL changes), armor values will get increased to keep TTK reasonable.

Oh man


This kind of participation-trophy garbage, is also why I'm glad nobody at PGI really pays attention to these kind of ideas. A chasis that sucks from one player's POV is the golden jesus-mech in another player's POV.

God forbid you have to face some adversity to succeed. Well, this mech can't laser-vomit meta as well as my TBR, so it must be a sh*te chassis. Is it that hard to think for yourself, outside the [meta-]box, and find and excel in a chassis/build that works for you?


i will say this definitively and you can quote me on it (and I play IS pretty much solely):
- clan mechs are not OP, good pilots are OP
- having some chassis be easier or harder to manage is FINE


They should add in a bots only mode, so people can set it to "ultra-easy" and fight against an opponent that lets you win all the time. I feel that would satisfy the portion of the playerbase this kind of crap appeals to.

so, in theory, what would happen when all the chassis are watered-down enough that the carebears feel they have an equal chance? Complain that higher-elo players should have de-buffs so the playing field is even-more-equal? Wouldn't wanna hurt any feelings now!


That said I'd be down for letting clan mechs upgrade ff/endo.

Edited by cSand, 19 June 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Ragtag soldier]

the solution of "unlock Clan upgrades, give it a month, and give IS several more quirk passes. " is pretty much everything wrong with this game's balance problems in one sentence. people demand the omnis get unlocked because they only try to force their mechs into the meta, and quirking 'mechs to balance them has been a massive crapshoot making many 'mechs useless and a handful stupidly imbalanced.

Jabilac, on 19 June 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

I never understood why they didn't put different rated engines in the different variants. One "Standard", One "Slower", and One "faster" would allow some versatility in builds and have the CT for each variant matter. Now its just omni-pod your mechs the same while you master them.. At least then there would be some customization.

for the clan omnimechs you aren't looking at variants, that's why. the A,B,S, ect. configs are pod mountings of the same chassis. the game's experience system wasn't made with omnimechs in mind so they halfassed this lame compromise.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 19 June 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Certain locked equipment needs to be unlocked.

Two of the top three already have ferro and endo, the upcoming top Clan light will already have ferro and endo and the Direwhale already has 50.5 tons of space for guns without the need for ferro or endo.

If mechs like the Summoner, Nova, Gargoyle, and Executioner had unlocked JJs, ferro, and endo they wouldn't be the Clans red-headed step children.

by "Certain" you seem to mean "all". trying to pretend you're being moderate while demanding everything all the time? must be a republican.