48 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Ragtag soldier, on 19 June 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

by "Certain" you seem to mean "all". trying to pretend you're being moderate while demanding everything all the time?

Not all by any means. And if PGI would have balanced the tech bases properly instead of relying solely on quirks, this would't even be an issue.

Ragtag soldier, on 19 June 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

must be a republican.

Wrong, you must be a Democran with your bi-partisan assumptions. Explains why you only ever ***** on the forums instead of offering ideas.

[Mechteric]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 June 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Do you think the crits should be dynamic? as that would be a gigantic buff to clans, and would turn the hellbringer into something.. terrifying (~5 more tons to play with and literally zero cost as you end up forcing all the ES/FF crits into the arms with no weapons in)

An interesting question!

Perhaps it would be best then for any crit spaces it already has for Ferro/Endo would be filled up first, after that go into dynamic? This way you always have the option to remove them at the cost of losing that tonnage, but if swapping Ferro for Endo it would just put the new endo crits on top of where they were taking up space before.

[Water Bear]

cSand, on 19 June 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

Oh man


This kind of participation-trophy garbage, is also why I'm glad nobody at PGI really pays attention to these kind of ideas. A chasis that sucks from one player's POV is the golden jesus-mech in another player's POV.

God forbid you have to face some adversity to succeed. Well, this mech can't laser-vomit meta as well as my TBR, so it must be a sh*te chassis. Is it that hard to think for yourself, outside the [meta-]box, and find and excel in a chassis/build that works for you?


i will say this definitively and you can quote me on it (and I play IS pretty much solely):
- clan mechs are not OP, good pilots are OP
- having some chassis be easier or harder to manage is FINE


They should add in a bots only mode, so people can set it to "ultra-easy" and fight against an opponent that lets you win all the time. I feel that would satisfy the portion of the playerbase this kind of crap appeals to.

so, in theory, what would happen when all the chassis are watered-down enough that the carebears feel they have an equal chance? Complain that higher-elo players should have de-buffs so the playing field is even-more-equal? Wouldn't wanna hurt any feelings now!


That said I'd be down for letting clan mechs upgrade ff/endo.

Aside from a lot of anger I'm not even 100% sure what you're saying.

Let me define what it means for mech A to be "stronger" than mech B. We say that mech A is stronger than mech B if, given two players of equal skill, Player 1 using mech A beats player 2 using mech B more than 50% of the time.

An easy definition to understand, I think.

Most people in this thread (reasonably, based on analysis and experience) assume that Clan mechs which have endo and / or ferro tend to be stronger, in the sense defined just above, than ones which lack one or both of those things.

Since it won't change the state of IS vs. Clan balance to allow all Clan mechs to be as powerful as the small percentage that have endo / ferro, most people in this thread are advocating that we unlock those upgrades for all Clan mechs.

If you believe that some mechs should be stronger than others, then that's your preference. I personally think the world is a better place when everyone gets to use the mech they want and have it be at least decent. I can't really see a reason not to let people use what they want instead of just Timbers, Crows, and Dires. Who cares exactly which chassis they're using, anyway? Only the person using that chassis, that's who. Let them have their favorite mech, and let it be as good as they want.

If you want weaker mechs to exist in the game for the sake of it, then just put a derp build on your favorite mech, go your way, and sin no more. Or buy an Urbie.

[Strum Wealh]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

The thing is swapping ferro to endo on let's say the warhawk is canon,
It has happened before and been allowed by the TT game rules,
http://mwomercs.com/...chs-discussion/

What is your source (an actual sourcebook or novel, with page and/or chapter number) for this?

The closest there is to allowing this in the TT rules is the FrankenbMech construction rules found in Strategic Operations.
"Internal structure critical slot distribution is retained from the donor design or, if no critical slot of the appropriate internal structure type is present, the number of critical slots listed on the Internal Structure Distribution Table" - StratOps, pg. 189
"Any OmniMech components incorporated into a FrankenMech will lose all benefi ts and special abilities associated with OmniMechs. They cannot be reconfigured with alternate pod load-outs. A FrankenMech cannot carry Mechanized Battle Armor." - StratOps, pg. 190

Even the advanced customization rules (also found in Strategic Operations) don't seem to allow for this:
"Generally, players must follow Classic BattleTech construction rules when customizing a unit. A player cannot simply strap a couple of new medium lasers onto an existing design, as this would make the unit two tons too heavy. Other components must be removed or changed to make the appropriate space and weight available for new systems. However, players need not observe the standard construction prohibition against mixing technology bases when customizing units. Clan parts can be installed in Inner Sphere units and vice versa, though such modifications may be a bit more difficult than standard replacements. All other standard construction rules still apply." - StratOps, pg. 189

Even on a "standard" (that is, non-OmniTech) BattleMech, replacing the structure would be a Class F refit ("a long and involved process that requires a production facility capable of producing the unit in question"; see page 188-189 of StratOps).

Moreover, neither Master Unit List nor BattleTech Engineer has any listing for a special configuration attributed to Ranna Kerensky, which would indicate that her 'Mech was built on one of the standarized configurations.

So, it is highly unlikely (to say the least ) that Ranna's Masakari had an Endo-Steel internal structure.

[Ragtag soldier]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 19 June 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Not all by any means. And if PGI would have balanced the tech bases properly instead of relying solely on quirks, this would't even be an issue.

trying to push them goalposts back, eh little boy? alright, since you've already stated you want jumpjets, ferro and endo unlocked what is it you think needs to remained locked to an omni chassis to maintain balance? what's your solution here?

[cSand]

Water Bear, on 19 June 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Aside from a lot of anger I'm not even 100% sure what you're saying.

Let me define what it means for mech A to be "stronger" than mech B. We say that mech A is stronger than mech B if, given two players of equal skill, Player 1 using mech A beats player 2 using mech B more than 50% of the time.

An easy definition to understand, I think.

Most people in this thread (reasonably, based on analysis and experience) assume that Clan mechs which have endo and / or ferro tend to be stronger, in the sense defined just above, than ones which lack one or both of those things.

Since it won't change the state of IS vs. Clan balance to allow all Clan mechs to be as powerful as the small percentage that have endo / ferro, most people in this thread are advocating that we unlock those upgrades for all Clan mechs.

If you believe that some mechs should be stronger than others, then that's your preference. I personally think the world is a better place when everyone gets to use the mech they want and have it be at least decent. I can't really see a reason not to let people use what they want instead of just Timbers, Crows, and Dires. Who cares exactly which chassis they're using, anyway? Only the person using that chassis, that's who. Let them have their favorite mech, and let it be as good as they want.

If you want weaker mechs to exist in the game for the sake of it, then just put a derp build on your favorite mech, go your way, and sin no more. Or buy an Urbie.

uh yea, I didn't really mean to have you quoted in there, sorry.



all of my points still stand though.

Anyways, both sides have strengths and weaknesses as is. Watering down everything so the subset of players who simply can't do it right anyways is pointless. You will not achieve a perfect balance in this game becuase of the nature of the game. Embrace all the differences of all the chassis, and instead of trying to get uncle PGI to sandbag for you, pick your favourite mech, grow a pair, and get better in it. All the "balance" issues that are apparently holding you down will disappear

Catering to the lowest common denominator, in any situation, simply enables and perpetuates mediocrity

Edited by cSand, 19 June 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Would you also support locking IS Battlemech customization instead, or rather, follow actual TT rules and add risk of breaking stuff, need for expert techs, money and time expenses, instead of breaking even more rules and making Omnies the same as Battlemechs?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Ragtag soldier, on 19 June 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

trying to push them goalposts back, eh little boy? alright, since you've already stated you want jumpjets, ferro and endo unlocked what is it you think needs to remained locked to an omni chassis to maintain balance? what's your solution here?

Yep, you're a low information individual. Not in the mood to entertain a low information individual such as yourself, feel free to get back with me one you learn a little courtesy.

[Mr Ezzquizo]

yes!

[Widowmaker1981]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 June 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

An interesting question!

Perhaps it would be best then for any crit spaces it already has for Ferro/Endo would be filled up first, after that go into dynamic? This way you always have the option to remove them at the cost of losing that tonnage, but if swapping Ferro for Endo it would just put the new endo crits on top of where they were taking up space before.

That doesnt solve the problem of the Hellbringer going from very good to best mech in the game because it has neither to start with, so all crits would be dyamic (dire wolf is also smiling but he doesnt benefit as much, only real thing it gets are 5xUAC10 and quad gauss builds becoming viable)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 June 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I think the logical next step is IF you have Ferro but no Endo, and want to swap them, you can swap to Endo and have it take up the same crit slots that the Ferro did. Least impact to build rules and crit slot allocations, and basically just gives a few mechs a free ton or so.

Executioner, Gargoyle, and Summoner would be happy for sure!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 June 2015 - 12:32 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 June 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I think the logical next step is IF you have Ferro but no Endo, and want to swap them, you can swap to Endo and have it take up the same crit slots that the Ferro did. Least impact to build rules and crit slot allocations, and basically just gives a few mechs a free ton or so.

Executioner, Gargoyle, and Summoner would be happy for sure!

That i can definitely get behind, i dont see it causing any balance issues, because all it would do is help out weaker mechs.

[LordBraxton]

so many good ideas, someone use twitter etc.

[SkyHammyr]

You know...
The attempt at TT adherence is almost ludicrous at this point.
Reduce the Endo/FF crit usage on IS and unlock it for Clans and call it a day.

[Ragtag soldier]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 19 June 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Yep, you're a low information individual. Not in the mood to entertain a low information individual such as yourself, feel free to get back with me one you learn a little courtesy.

knew it, you're a crybaby that wants everything unlocked. why you scrubs bother suggesting this crap is beyond me, your opinion is worthless.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Ragtag soldier, on 19 June 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

knew it, you're a crybaby that wants everything unlocked. why you scrubs bother suggesting this crap is beyond me, your opinion is worthless.

K.

[Pjwned]

How about just making it so that mechs without Endo Steel don't suck so much?

[Andi Nagasia]

From my Topic on Ferro to Endo Swapping,
(Ferro To Endo Upgrade Swapping For Omni-Mechs! Discussion!)

Andi Nagasia, on 29 April 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

=Story of Canon=
Ranna Kerensky had a WHK named Lupus which had Endo instead of Ferro,
her Death= A freak strike to the cockpit of her 'Mech killed Ranna Kerensky.
-
in TT a OmniMechs cant change how much armor they have,
in this case a WHK has 14Tons of Armor but with Ferro it also Gains 10% more,
as her had Endo Instead of Ferro she had 10% less armor than that Standard WHK,
which her GM allowed, it was this and a Crit that lead to the Pilots death,
(as this was a Choice allowed in TT, it should be allowed here)

so Rannas WHK was said to have more Tonnage then a Normal WHK giving her an Edge in battle,
so a WHK having less Armor but more Tonnage, would point to the WHKs Ferro being Swapped with Endo,
it still remained and was referred to as being an OmniMech, so we have to assume that it was still one,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 June 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

From my Topic on Ferro to Endo Swapping,
(Ferro To Endo Upgrade Swapping For Omni-Mechs! Discussion!)


so Rannas WHK was said to have more Tonnage then a Normal WHK giving her an Edge in battle,
so a WHK having less Armor but more Tonnage, would point to the WHKs Ferro being Swapped with Endo,
it still remained and was referred to as being an OmniMech, so we have to assume that it was still one,
Edit-

Did you read that link to Ranna Kerensky? All it states is that she had a Warhawk she named lupus, there is nothing there stating that it was a customized mech in any way. If you go to the Warhawk page on the same sarna wiki, it lists only one know custom Warhawk, and it isn't Ranna's, and the only 'cusomization' was replacing the LRM's in its prime configuration with more heat sinks (something easily done with it being an omnimech).

[Andi Nagasia]

Tincan Nightmare, on 19 June 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Did you read that link to Ranna Kerensky? All it states is that she had a Warhawk she named lupus, there is nothing there stating that it was a customized mech in any way. If you go to the Warhawk page on the same sarna wiki, it lists only one know custom Warhawk, and it isn't Ranna's, and the only 'cusomization' was replacing the LRM's in its prime configuration with more heat sinks (something easily done with it being an omnimech).

the link is to Sarna is just about her basic info,
Sarna is a good wiki but it doesnt have all the info, as no Wiki does,
Lupus in one of the books(cant remember which one, i have all so ill have to look),
says that Ranna's WHK Omni had Less armor but more Internal space than the Standard,
so based on that and how FASA constructed and wrote the Novels i made my conclusions,