279 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

mogs01gt, on 22 June 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Its a direct contradiction. Its only acceptable if its a net win, if its not a win, then its not acceptable. The next line they say its ok to run and hide if you cant win.

That is the definition of a contradiction...

Read the words again. Nowhere is such a thing said. You're the one injecting the word "only", thus changing the original meaning.

[Big Tin Man]

Mystere, on 22 June 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

As per the CoC, you were in violation, no matter what your reason for doing so may have been. It's really as simple as that. There are no ands, ifs, ors, or buts.

Shrug.

I get it, I know I'm in violation in the strictest sense, but I'm not breaking the spirit of the team treason rule. When I'm calling it out, the game is completely and utterly lost, with no pilot on our side who would notice or be able to inflict 1 more point of damage, or even the base turrets being able to defend for the win. The practice of people giving away coordinates of the last disconnected mech has become so commonplace (since PGI can't/won't fix the issue) that maybe PGI should look into re-writing the CoC to fix this. Maybe it's too much work to write in the nuances and having a black and white rule is easier to 'enforce' (has anyone ever been reprimanded for team treason?). Either way, I'm going to help the other team find the last DC'd ecm mech on terra therma so the other 23 players can move on.

In other news of lawlessness and rulebreaking, I was once in a match long ago with a PGI dev, and one of our own team starting mouthing off in chat, using horrifically offensive language that was completely unprovoked. Dude just started spewing hate speech in the drop window. My teammates and I took it upon ourselves to TK the guy, and he was dead within the first 30 seconds. Then we apologized to the dev for the TK which was clearly coordinated and intentional, and the dev gave us the thumbs up for it and said he'd look into banning that account for flaming. I wish I could remember which dev that was.

Community enforcement of the rules can be a thing. People exercising good judgement should not be punished. There are shades of grey in everything.

[mogs01gt]

Mystere, on 22 June 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

Read the words again. Nowhere is such a thing said. You're the one injecting the word "only", thus changing the original meaning.

Im trying to help you understand your own quote. Obviously you are ignoring it or are just too stupid to read what you quoted.

I will make it simple for you to understand.

" if it'll net a win."

Edited by mogs01gt, 22 June 2015 - 03:16 PM.

[Moldur]

I feel like the logic behind this rule is so that rampant grieving doesn't take place. I've virtually never seen somebody call out a teammate unreasonably. I'd say in most of the situations I've witnessed, 23 people in the match are in favor of calling this person's position. It breaks the rules, sure. If there was a rule to only put your shoes on backwards, would you follow it? No. Why? Because it's a stupid rule (though I bet some of the people in this discussion would follow it). I highly doubt the point of the rule we're discussing is to make sure some ******* can waste 5 minutes of everyone's time.

As the saying goes (roughly): You don't need to use your brain to follow the rules. You need your brain to know when to break them.

Have you ever been somewhere and asked someone who works there "Hey, can I [blank]?" and they go "uhhh, uhhh, we have a rule *blah blah blah*"

Then you go to the manager or someone else in a slightly higher position and go "Hey, can I [blank]?" and they go "Let me think about that, hmm yeah, go ahead."

Why did this guy let me and why did the other guy not? Well, 1 reason might be that it's a service industry and the manager just caved to you, the customer, but the other reason could be that the manager knows the reasoning behind the rule and isn't blindly following it like his or her subordinate. They understand the 'Why' and can use their judgement to allow something that isn't listed or done normally.

Go ahead and throw the book at me all you want if it makes you happy.

[Mystere]

mogs01gt, on 22 June 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

Im trying to help you understand your own quote. Obviously you are ignoring it or are just too stupid to read what you quoted.

I will make it simple for you to understand.

" if it'll net a win."

Sigh! Resorting to insults.

What you did was: "only if it'll net a win". It was you who placed it there and thus changed the original meaning. The first quote was talking about "hiding" being a "sound strategy", not whether or not it was permitted.

Do you even see what the giveaway was? It was this:

Quote

If someone does this repeatedly to the point where it starts griefing other players, we will investigate further of course.

suggesting a grey area that needed further looking into.

<smh>

[Mystere]

Moldur, on 22 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

I feel like the logic behind this rule is so that rampant grieving doesn't take place.

You're on to something there.

Moldur, on 22 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

I've virtually never seen somebody call out a teammate unreasonably. I'd say in most of the situations I've witnessed, 23 people in the match are in favor of calling this person's position.

I, on the other hand, see it often enough to notice, especially during "tournaments"/"events". This weekend was no exception. It's a whole bunch of impatient people harassing the last player.

Moldur, on 22 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

It breaks the rules, sure. If there was a rule to only put your shoes on backwards, would you follow it? No. Why? Because it's a stupid rule (though I bet some of the people in this discussion would follow it). I highly doubt the point of the rule we're discussing is to make sure some ******* can waste 5 minutes of everyone's time.

The underlined part is the point of contention. It always has been. Then tie that to my last statement above.

Moldur, on 22 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

As the saying goes (roughly): You don't need to use your brain to follow the rules. You need your brain to know when to break them.

Have you broken any laws which you think are so terribly unjust they should not be followed, but the penalty for violating them is death or a long prison term? If you haven't yet, will you?

Moldur, on 22 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Have you ever been somewhere and asked someone who works there "Hey, can I [blank]?" and they go "uhhh, uhhh, we have a rule *blah blah blah*"

Then you go to the manager or someone else in a slightly higher position and go "Hey, can I [blank]?" and they go "Let me think about that, hmm yeah, go ahead."

Why did this guy let me and why did the other guy not? Well, 1 reason might be that it's a service industry and the manager just caved to you, the customer, but the other reason could be that the manager knows the reasoning behind the rule and isn't blindly following it like his or her subordinate. They understand the 'Why' and can use their judgement to allow something that isn't listed or done normally.

PGI is the manager in this situation, not you.

Moldur, on 22 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Go ahead and throw the book at me all you want if it makes you happy.

Instead of throwing the book at you, I'll just throw this one: Should there be laws against euthanasia and assisted suicide?

Take your time.

Edited by Mystere, 22 June 2015 - 03:49 PM.

[Slepnir]

The "wasting time" argument is invalid-
you're time(dead guy) is no more important than the time of the live guy still playing the match as they see fit. in fact it is LESS important for all the dead players since they have no further impact on the match


If you're ADD feel free to go play a game with a respawn mechanic.
If you feel the need to drop again immediately there are a couple game mechanics options for you-
1. leave match, 2. select a different mech and drop again, only one mech in you're hanger? we have 8+ shiny trial mechs ready for you.

The rest of us who are mature enough to realise the match can go a full 15 minutes, and we agreed to the terms by installing the game, will choose one of the options above or wait the extra 2-5 minutes for the match to end because we understand those few minutes are not an apocalyptic world ending event. it also allows time for a run to the kitchen or bathroom.

In short, if wasting time is you're argument, UN-INSTALL THE GAME AND GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE YOU'RE ACTING LIKE A SPOILED BABY!!!

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Slepnir, on 22 June 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

The &quot;wasting time&quot; argument is invalid-
you're time(dead guy) is no more important than the time of the live guy still playing the match as they see fit. in fact it is LESS important for all the dead players since they have no further impact on

First. No individual player is more important than another, and even if they were I would be much more important than you because I have spent far more money per hour played, so be thankful your foolish statement isn't true. Secondly, you dismiss the value of the time of the 12 players on the opposing team.

You griefers need to quit trying to bully and intimidate players,if you think someone has done you wrong report them, but we both know that the number of players disciplined for giving out location is the same as the number disciplined for non-participation. So suck it up, and deal

[Nightmare1]

Lordhammer, on 19 June 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

you should be ashamed if u powered down, i hate it when ppl does that unnecesserily prolonging the match not accomplishing anything.

Powering down is a viable tactic:

[White Bear 84]

Mystere, on 21 June 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

But I am the new clan champion <and the same as the old one>!

That look in his eyes.. ..sends shivers down my spine, like when you are piloting a locust and run around a corner to come face to face with a splatcrow...

[Mystere]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 22 June 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

First. No individual player is more important than another, and even if they were I would be much more important than you because I have spent far more money per hour played, so be thankful your foolish statement isn't true. Secondly, you dismiss the value of the time of the 12 players on the opposing team.

You griefers need to quit trying to bully and intimidate players,if you think someone has done you wrong report them, but we both know that the number of players disciplined for giving out location is the same as the number disciplined for non-participation. So suck it up, and deal

The only ones obviously griefing are those revealing locations. As per the rules, there is no legitimate reason to do so. There is no "subject to interpretation" for this particular rule.

On the other hand, the ones shutting down and hiding might be doing so for legitimate reasons. So your one and only course of action is to report such players and PGI will determine any violations.

One is black and white. The other is not. So, using your own words, go suck it up and deal.

Edited by Mystere, 22 June 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[Mystere]

White Bear 84, on 22 June 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

That look in his eyes.. ..sends shivers down my spine, like when you are piloting a locust and run around a corner to come face to face with a splatcrow...

I'm not inclined to go anywhere near such a behemoth, especially with that greatsword! No siree! I'd be using a bow, from far far away, and not with a puny spear like that dead guy.

Edited by Mystere, 22 June 2015 - 08:12 PM.

[Stonefalcon]

Lunatic_Asylum, on 19 June 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

We had a match where the outcome was not in our favor. As the last 'Mech, I found a sweet spot where my LRMs could reach people below me, and people above me could not see me well. I powered down, and then 1 person in my team revealed my position. The other one called me "duh", "coward", and the other one kept shouting out my position. Eventually, the enemy came from the side, where I was more vulnerable, thanks to the coordinates.
Is that a normal behavior? Was I doing something wrong? Is Power Down button there for a reason?!

The term is Ghosting and it is against PGI's toc to rat you out but on one condition, that you have participated in the match to some degree.

Mystere, on 22 June 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

I'm not inclined to go anywhere near such a behemoth, especially with that greatsword! No siree! I'd be using a bow, from far far away, and not with a puny spear like that dead guy.

Everyone knows that whale got lucky with a leg crit and stopped the light in it's tracks.

[Rushin Roulette]

Lunatic_Asylum, on 22 June 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

I was really interested on how GMs would resolve such issues. I am talking to a GM now (the replies are very slow).
What he basically said so far is that saying that you are hiding is violation of rules of conduct (even if you are ambushing others), which definitely means nonparticipation, in his opinion, and it can be freely followed by any team treason occurrences(!)). At the same time, asking your member to "die" is completely acceptable, This is... weird. I'm sending him another message to ascertain the validity of his words.

My thought is that GMs have too little time and resources (a screenshot or two). That means that the other disconnected guy from this topic (2 pages ago) would get punished too if he were reported. :-(

I am befuddled a bit now. I'll keep you updated.

Im calling BS to this ahead and no matter what this "GM" says is completely irrelevant.

The developers (including Russ) have already stated, that it is not against the rules to power down or even run from the enemy if you are facing an overwhelming opposition. Non participation only applies if you do not fight or intend to fight from the start to the end of the whole match. If the player in question is fighting at any point during the match, then he/she is participating

[Lunatic_Asylum]

Rushin, that is why I think GMs have too little time and resources on their hands to process any such reports (they cannot even check the "perpetrator's" damage if there is no screenshot, and might assume that it was nil). This is a big problem in our game.
Unfortunately, I deleted the quoted message in your post, as I thought that I would get all answers from the GM first (it takes 3 days to get one sometimes!)

Edited by Lunatic_Asylum, 22 June 2015 - 11:35 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Rushin Roulette, on 22 June 2015 - 11:26 PM, said:

Im calling BS to this ahead and no matter what this "GM" says is completely irrelevant.

The developers (including Russ) have already stated, that it is not against the rules to power down or even run from the enemy if you are facing an overwhelming opposition. Non participation only applies if you do not fight or intend to fight from the start to the end of the whole match. If the player in question is fighting at any point during the match, then he/she is participating

This is right. Players know that giving allies position away to the other team is bad sportsmanship unless its a disconnected mech.

Yes this is a common thing to see in matches.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 June 2015 - 11:40 PM.

[Johnny Z]

cdlord, on 19 June 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Both sides should report each other and let the mods sort it out.

Mechwarrior Online has problems with their mods. I have seen them side with cheats over legit players before. Although this was recently and since closed beta they have appeared good on these forums and in game.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 June 2015 - 11:45 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Meh, I can't sympathize with the OP considering his response, unless it was obvious from his actions that he was powering down as a combat tactic (i.e. powering down immediately after firing in order to avoid detection). His response sounds like a glib acknowledgement/taunt that he didn't intend to fight. That tends to piss off teammates.

And you can say it's fine under PGI rules until your face turns blue, but there are also unwritten rules about acceptable and unacceptable behavior. These unwritten rules very much exist, as evidenced by opinions in this thread, and by what I've seen over thousands of matches. Hiding or running with no intention to fight (in skirmish) will bring out very vocal and loud disapproval by the 20+ people who are forced to endure it. You'd best placate your teammates with a declaration that you intend to fight (or show it in your actions), otherwise prepare to get ratted out.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Kubernetes, on 23 June 2015 - 12:48 AM, said:

Meh, I can't sympathize with the OP considering his response, unless it was obvious from his actions that he was powering down as a combat tactic (i.e. powering down immediately after firing in order to avoid detection). His response sounds like a glib acknowledgement/taunt that he didn't intend to fight. That tends to piss off teammates.

And you can say it's fine under PGI rules until your face turns blue, but there are also unwritten rules about acceptable and unacceptable behavior. These unwritten rules very much exist, as evidenced by opinions in this thread, and by what I've seen over thousands of matches. Hiding or running with no intention to fight (in skirmish) will bring out very vocal and loud disapproval by the 20+ people who are forced to endure it. You'd best placate your teammates with a declaration that you intend to fight (or show it in your actions), otherwise prepare to get ratted out.

No one is "Forced to endure it" So your premise is bunk.

I disco all the time after I died and drop into another mech.

We have to understand in solo new players are feeling out their mech, tactics and strategy. We are going to see silly things.
Having no room for going outside the norms means over time gameplay will become stale and uninteresting.

Watching an ambush work is epic in my view even if they don't win the match. Of course I like to win but I enjoy the fight more so I can tolerate the noob making a mistake in his approach.

This thread is about tolerance over anything else. If you can't tolerate new players or people trying out new tactics (for them) then roll into group or CW.

For now I will still use the shut down ambush tactic when its called for. It makes sense when one is out manned and out gunned.

If you team treason be assured I will report you in a heartbeat. I hope everyone else does the same. Seen way to many chances at a good fight denied by some idiot who thinks the match is theirs even though they are dead.

[GeistHrafn]

Mudhutwarrior, on 23 June 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

Watching an ambush work is epic in my view even if they don't win the match. Of course I like to win but I enjoy the fight more so I can tolerate the noob making a mistake in his approach.

Some of the most nail-biting games were from tactics like this. Terra Therma last night, we were down to one Ember, they still had 5 mechs. He ran off (someone MAY have thought he was running away), but instead flanked. Managed to down 3 of 5 mechs before dying, and was perhaps 1 alpha away from the 4th. Sure, we lost, but it was an epic battle.
(Ember pilot, I forget your name, but if you're reading this, a big <o!)