111 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

I ran a unit here, for a while, known as Armageddon Unlimited; unfortunately, the people in that command -yes, I took it seriously- wanted to own the unit, when they hadn't earned the right to, and that -rather than CW or any element of MWO- is why the unit no longer functions. However, reading what I have been about CW, it seems as though running a unit would have been mostly useless in the first place, considering how badly PGI have borked it, and how players from the larger units are taking advantage of it. I agree with the OP that this is not just PGIs problem, but the community's problem, as well; however, as long as PGI allows the behavior to continue, and seeks to implement stupid-**** answers rather than listening to those of us in the community who understand BattleTech, understand the previous MechWarrior and MechCommander computer games OBVIOUSLY FAR BETTER than PGI does, we will continue to see these problems, until the servers shut down.

Perhaps, if enough of these threads are built, PGI will pull it's head out of its collective fourth-point-of-contact and start listening, put the brakes on, and do what needs to be done, and it's simple...

PGI, if you want CW to not only survive, but to thrive, you will introduce true Unit Management tools and true Contract tools ALREADY DEVELOPED FOR THE BATTLETECH UNIVERSE, and likely far more easily portable to MWO than you could possibly think, interstellar travel -even on a reduced time-scale-, intelligence gathering, strategic planning, strategic operational control, and objective-based warfare, and you will do it damn quick and in a hurry.

Stop playing with new cockpit items, new paint schemes, new 'Mechs, new competitions, and new fracking sales, and start doing the things that really need to be done, such as procedurally-generated HUGE maps, with objectives player-Commanders can designate to protect or attack, and that can interact with the maps you've already designed. You keep making BAD excuses for changing this game into something OTHER THAN BATTLETECH, when it doesn't NEED TO BE. Quirks on the 'Mechs... a really stupid decision, and a really nasty joke... rebuild the system to harness Battle Value. Let players have pilot and tech trees, like you promised us three years ago, now, that will allow us to build up skill in the game, and make our 'Mechs better, don't just give us the quirks and say, 'Hey, go have fun', because we're not.

You guys really have your heads up your asses, here, you do NOT understand that you are simply destroying a game that, with the time and energy and money you're putting into destroying it, you COULD BE perfecting it. It is so bad, now, that I am not even worried that anything I say, here, will get me banned from play. You ****** up... now, fix it!

Oh, and... I told you so!

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 23 June 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[kesmai]

The only reason to play cw is grinding for faction rank rewards. Where is the promised logistics part? Where is the value of the planets you conquer?
we have overstacked unit coffers filled with hundreds of millions cbills. For what?
i'm fed up with the fact that pgi does a lot of promises . at the end they just deliver a map here and there, or mechpacks.



this fRAnchise has a lot to offer, yet pgi is incapable of delivering or blind to see the possibilities at their Hand.

[CMetz]

The first thing I would do with CW is the following: Increase the rewards about 3x. Then Implement repair and rearm to offset some of the increased payout. This has to be done to truly motivate the majority of the player base to get involved with CW. I know it sounds steep, but if I know I'm going to be online for about 3-4 hours, shouldn't I want to be spending that period of time in CW, since it is "endgame" content?

Next: Revamp the payout an loyalty reward process. I run a loyalist unit. My members should be encouraged to stay loyal, not encouraged to bounce around factions and collect mechbays. Make repair/rearm cost less for loyalist units that have the backing of a government. Mercs pay more for repair/rearm, but they should get C-Bill bonuses based on their contracts. Give mechs to loyalists as they reach higher levels.

Along with that: DIFFERENTIATE THE FACTIONS. I can't emphasize this enough! More C-bills for some, cheaper repair/rearm for others, loyalty point buffs for others, vary mech prices according to lore, maybe even adjust quirks for mechs if they are played by their home faction (such as all quirks buffed 2.5% - 5% for using an Atlas as a Lyran)

Finally: Make every battle count for something. Maybe a conquest reduces repair/rearm with the resources harvested, etc.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

I like playing CW, but admit it can be really frustrating if played without a team (still grinding mechbays, man this can be a pain). That's why I usually play 1-3 games a day, unless I've got a decent team on my side. Helps not to get burned out.

Units vs Pugs - asking for separating queues is a wishful thinking given the current numbers. And tbh - I wouldn't even like that.

The problem with pugs getting stomped instead of at least loosing in a non-humiliating fashion is those 2-3 clueless players that loose their mechs within 5 minutes and do 200-300 dmg total. No idea how it's possible, but there's still quite a pool of new players just starting CW. At least at Davion I still often see people asking basic questions, and those guys are just a fraction, because most newbies don't ask questions...

Yesterday I got a match when our pug (with one or two two-mans) had a very balanced game against a 9-man. It ended up with few minutes on the timer and a score of 38-38. They've got the gens, bacause we had not enough players left to stop their last rush. But on this match even those going "DEAD" early at least pulled some damage. GG close.

Few days ago my pug team won against a premade (10-man or 12-man). Main reason - no clueless players on our side. Some were better, some were worse, but everybody put out at least mediocre damage and people cared for their last mechs.

So - tutorial is a must.
--------
About counterattack spawncamping - there should be no gen there, just a big capture zone in the base. No need to camp then. Plus the winners get xp and c-bills for each enemy mech that was not destroyed yet. Plus - there would be a lore-friendly objective - you have to physically push the defenders out of their base, not destroy some poor generator.

Or, if you REALLY want to avoid spawncamping in this mode - three cap zones. One big in the base and two smaller on the way to the def dropzones, so (almost) nobody can pass them. Capping the base zone wins the match, entering the small zone (meaning attackers are coming for the dropzone) starts a cap timer - one of defenders have to stand on any of the cap zones to reset it, or the match will end within a minute. This way game ends almost automatically when the defenders are pushed back to their dropzone for good. Yeah, the attackers could use the jump-jetted mechs to avoid the field, but that would require them to have a special deck "for spawncamping purposes", what can make them loose against equally skilled team that took the average 'meta'.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Hoffburger, on 21 June 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Also, telling solo players to join a unit isn't a solution. Some of us don't have the time to dedicate to that, but still enjoy the CW aspect of the game and just want to play PUG vs PUG to not get curbstomped constantly.

Dedicate to what? There are groups out there for all different play styles. Some require a certain amount of time put in and others are just a group of people dropping together somewhat consistently. Even the least strenuous of these vastly improves you chances of winning.

Edited by Rouken, 21 June 2015 - 11:04 PM.

[Varvar86]

Poor Map architecture:

Maps designed for FPS, not for MechWarrior.

Line based maps provides strong concentration of “no brain” action. All “super advanced secret tactics” are actually : run tight 12 man groups – all shoot the same target – repeat – profit. This is bad from the ground. Planned for action, and build without any fantasy for limited action only. Yes design are good , but the basis, the core and idea, are broken. This broken core gave us:

1- stomping, because maps are BUILD for no brakes 12-man trains running through the tunnels of death;

2 – limited brainless tactics, because maps are BUILD to limit ppl maneuvers

3 – camping, because maps are BUILD in lines and/or with "bottle necks" keypoints, so where is no other way to flank, camping is inevitable

4- spawn ******, because maps are BUILD such way that spawning ppl has 3 limited wall on their backs and sides, and got only 2 exits in 1 direction – spawn ****** is OBVIOUS to exist.

This is not community problem. People are FORCED to play in such environment. And this environment DICATES limited variant of behavior.

Would you camp same place forever on round based “Canyon network” or “Caustic valley”, if there Lots of ways for you being flanked and shot from your back? - no, you wont, other way you will lose. That’s the example, how environment can change ppl’s behavior. Will not copy here, bit here is my post with CW map redesign proposition

http://mwomercs.com/...29#entry4510529

Get rid of “sausage” design maps - and all CW demons will gone.

Edited by Varvar86, 22 June 2015 - 01:51 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Hoffburger, on 21 June 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Also, telling solo players to join a unit isn't a solution. Some of us don't have the time to dedicate to that, but still enjoy the CW aspect of the game and just want to play PUG vs PUG to not get curbstomped constantly.

Rouken, on 21 June 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

Dedicate to what? There are groups out there for all different play styles. Some require a certain amount of time put in and others are just a group of people dropping together somewhat consistently. Even the least strenuous of these vastly improves you chances of winning.

Exactly im in a really relaxed, chill, come with what mechs you like and play group that on occasion will get people who want to play hardcore, metamech style too and they will form a separate group and try to arrange drops v other 12 man groups, but its not obligatory.

And yes joining a group or getting on the Faction TS server is the answer.

Edited by Ace Selin, 22 June 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[TWIAFU]

madhermit, on 21 June 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Completely missing the point. I don't know if youre doing it on purpose or are you just so oblivious. I wonder why you think playing a game should be a chore.

You really seem to hate players. Oh well. Enjoy your 30-60 minute queues. :^)

New to reading comprehension? The point of the post I was replying to was/is joining a Unit and the time it may take, since you missed it.

I have not had a wait that long forever, I don't play solo in the group game.

Enjoy your rolfstomps.

[bootae]

Lots of valid points made.

My main gripe and this is something I have heard a lot of people talking about, particularly those who are new to CW in MWO (and this matters because it's turning them away) is the counter attack mode is awful. It's far too in favour of the team defending omega (though essentially they can ignore it) who essentially can set up defensive position and farm a choke point.

In the normal gamemode if the defender is guarding chokepoints well, then the attackers can use the objectives to force the defenders to react and potentially swing the balance. The attacker has options. However, in counter attack there are no objectives for the defender, since omega is basically irrelevant to them, they in effect have free choice to set up firing lines and crossfires where ever they want and then just farm the kills. The attacker has no choice but to go into the fire.

Assuming all things are even, the team defending in counter attack should never, ever lose. That of course is not the case, but that's due to the other issues with team balance, etc already mentioned. The game mode though is utterly flawed and only serves to annoy people and turn away new players, as it puts emphasis on other perceived imbalances when they walk into clan/quirked/whatever gun lines. CW needs to be enticing new players, not annoying them.


If counter attack had real objectives or mechanics that made it more balanced it would also be a lot more interesting. There's loads of things that could be done. Capture points that would let drop ships deploy players in other positions (forward base style), re-activation of defensive turret networks, or simply things to destroy that would make it not just a lop-sided kill mission.

Actually that's something needed in general. Variety with missions. New maps are all great, invasion mode is great, but more things to do that support strategic play, yes please.

[Kin3ticX]

slide, on 21 June 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

I suggest that units be rated by their win loss percentage, not unit ELO, just simple numbers. Using the MRBC scale from lore.

Rating Win%
A 90+
B 80-90
C 70-80
D 50-70
E 30-50
F <30
All non tagged players (lone wolves) are rated F irrespective of how good or bad they are. Obviously some sort of formula for rating mixed units/pugs would be required but that wouldn't be hard to work out.

The general concern most often brouht up so far are the roflstomps. After that the next concern seems to be an entry requirement for CW(like 100 drops in regular queues or even higher). There are numerous other concerns like map design, lack of planetary map depth(coffer uses, expenses/upgrades), but I have seen a CW tutorial brought up a couple times. I think if PGI even made the most basic integrated CW tutorial it would do lots of good.

We need a balancing system that can work with a low population to slowly start to deal with 48-12 stomps. Populations would have to be really high to split group and solo players into different pools. Really digging the idea of a simple tonnage handicap system.

Handicap system could be part of a solution. PGI did use the 10 ton handicap for IS-Clan in the past. Why not use it instead for a unit tier system based on WL or something? Tier-1 230, Tier-2 240, Tier-3 250.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 22 June 2015 - 04:38 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Okay, another thing I keep reading about is reinforcing the game modes being played. There should be ONE game, not multiple modes of play. That ONE game should include all of the possibilities, especially in an objective-warfare based climate. This is not a hard thing to do, and scoring shouldn't even be a part of it, at all. A unit commander defending a world gets to distribute the forces -both that belong to their unit, AND any AI units that belong/are assigned on a planet- how they see fit, BEFORE any attacker comes in. The attacking commander knows the contract that has been made, the type that it is, and determines from that contract what has to be done. Is everything objective-based, then that's what the commander needs to accomplish; the defending commander has NO clue what's going on, except through the intelligence they are able to gather against the incoming forces, but their forces are out there ready to defend on a large planetary map. The objectives-based Raid contract has to be planned out so the attacking force has minimal exposure to the enemy -even if the attacking commander doesn't know where all of the defending forces are, at least without good intelligence, anyway- while accomplishing the goals of the contract, and any extraneous goals the attacking commander might have.

Forgive me, but I'm not seeing why this is so damned difficult to achieve?! The only answer I come across is that PGI just wants to have us play a MOBA, and screw ANYTHING ELSE related to the BattleTech universe at all. But, then, why create Community Warfare AT ALL!!!

It's not the best constructed document in the world, but here's my Compiled Mission Types Catalog! PGI, so many of us are trying to understand why you are self-destructing, like this!?!?!

[sdsnowbum]

I don't think anybody mentioned how these days call to arms seems to result in nothing but long waits and mismatches. Sometimes both.

Clicking on this has got to be beyond frustrating.

Edited by sdsnowbum, 22 June 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[Kyrie]

What I hoped for in CW is a gradual implementation of the BT universe. What we got is something else entirely.
My wishlist: Houses, command structures, supplies, supply lines, strategic choices behind attacks and defenses, assets such as personal and unit mechs having actual locations in the map with corresponding logistical opportunity-costs.

[Revis Volek]

Hoffburger, on 20 June 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

No solo queue = I'm not playing it ever again once the current event is over.

There is a solo queue....its the same as the group queue.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The two things I really want to see in CW are some benefit to owning planets and more game modes.

I am interested to see what the phase 3 logistics will add, but I suspect it will be cbill rewards or discounts on mechs/equipment. Neither of which really entices me. I dream of things like managing mechs, supplies, salvage, etc. However, that implies these things can be exhausted and being locked out of my favorite mech because I don't have the part to repair it sounds interesting on paper but also probably sucks in practice.

We are learning right now that objective based gameplay is tricky when one of the objectives is much easier to perform and ends the game. In particular, the balance between gen destruction and kills in CW. Some future objective based game modes may need to remove kill count as a win condition, have objectives that can be recaptured/repaired, or feature a ticket system where more tickets are added upon completing objectives. Complete with big set pieces, AI, radio commands concerning the current objectives, etc.

The next bit is asking for the Moon, but let me dream, ok?

I would love to see a game mode where the players take part in a battle for a city. The invading force gets a set number of mechs to take and hold defensive positions around the landing zone. After holding these points for a set time Overlord drop ships arrive and the invaders are granted more tickets.

From there the invaders move on to lay siege to a city. The city could have defensive turrets that are powered by a generator just inside the city. These things can all be destroyed by weapons fire and also repaired by a mech standing in a control zone "guarding" them while they are repaired. Convoys could arrive at the city to grant the defenders more tickets and these would also be susceptible to weapons fire. So cutting off supply lines would be important. Not sure what the end objective of all that would be.

On the other hand, if the invaders did not successfully secure a landing zone one of the Overlords could go down and the game could shift into a fighting retreat and eventual last stand at the drop ship to defend it while it is repaired or another drop ship arrives for extraction.

[Peter2k]

Hoffburger, on 21 June 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Also, telling solo players to join a unit isn't a solution. Some of us don't have the time to dedicate to that, but still enjoy the CW aspect of the game and just want to play PUG vs PUG to not get curbstomped constantly.

It's sometimes really hard to tell if you're actually really against a 12 man
I played last 6 matches in CW as a solo

5 of those matches we stomped them back to they're drop sight
last of those 6 we won close

Just cobbled together players, biggest pre made group size was 4

Edit: I guess because there's no groups actually playing any more, or not that much

Edited by Peter2k, 22 June 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Eider]

Low population, wait times, pools, empty planets, shortage of IS players
Seems like CW is slowing down bigtime and people are quitting for various reasons. Could be burnout, frustration, or just waiting for new features. Empty queues and wait times are a big one I suppose.

for me its map designs, despite what some people say brawling is pretty useless. Yes yes there are a few points in maps where it can be handy. The rest is purely a long range game and clans still have a decided edge on that with their lasers. Yes there are IS erll but other than a few quirked out mechs that i dont find fun you are likely going to die as IS in pugland. Grouped and organized? Sure you can fight back but that just serves to make it less casual friendly. I wont even touch it unless there is an event for such reasons. And that is more of a munitions issue than a teamwork issue. Pugs may insist on brawling with them med lasers only to die easy to those dual guass or erlls, then wonder why their scores are bad.

[Felix7007]

The biggest problem are absolutely the maps. Just like you stated, the lane tactics and moba style gameplay just baffles me as to why PGI went this rout. I mean really, the third time round should tell you something. We had turrets defending omega and because of map design, that was too easy to kill so they added generators to help dampen the effects of the bad map design. Well the generators were too easy to kill so now we will put more protection on them to further dampen the effects of bad map design. I'm no doctor but putting 3 bandages on a cut that needs stitches isn't as good as stitches.

Edited by Felix7007, 22 June 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I like the matches themselves, two coordinated teams against each other is a lot of fun and there is quite a few tactics that work. Brawling decks work just fine, especially for IS, in the 1st hussars we brawl all the time. It's not hard at all to force a close range fight, L2Brawl guys, there's no excuse.

Maps are ok, but a bit samey, make some more with different kind of layout to mix it up and it'll be fine.

But there is no macro level, no context of meaning to the battles. No opportunity to reach any form of endgame for your unit or faction, no way to build a sphere of military and political influence.

So far it's just another form of deathmatch, a fun deathmatch, but not the simulation of galactic warfare we are waiting for. That's the big thing, the real kicker, the bees knees, the problem in the first place. Factions and units need a macro level game, with and engame that you can actually win. "change the course of history", that was the pitch was it not. Well, if we are to do that there must be a way to conquer and defeat another faction, a way to build influence, a political game, a way to establish new centres of power and influence, PGI needs to let go of their control over the map for starters, and then add a ton of complexity in strategy, diplomacy, politics and logistics.

[Eider]

Yea learn to brawl while being hit by ranges over 1k as you try to reach a choke point up ahead that would actually give you cover to brawl. Meanwhile have your armor stripped, yea pugs are great at that.