35 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

So after having a bunch of fun with M.A.S.C. in the Executioner, I decided to bite the bullet with the heavy queue times and start grinding out the rest of my Summer Heat grab bags with my Cauldron-Born. I'd experimented with a few fits on it previously, onesy-twosy games to see how a given thing felt, but this was the first one I sat down and played like mad for a buncha games straight.

First of all - I am digging the hell out of that machine up there. It's so nice I spent two thirds of my remaining C-bill stock fully module-ing it up, and I'm a total weekend-warrior spacepoor.

Second of all - it gave rise to an idea for dealing with what most of the MWO community, including myself, feels is a bit of an oversight with the CBN's release - its Medium climb profile.

The Medium climb profile means the CBN clambers over terrain like a mountain goat, giving that extra bit of emphasis to the machine's natural hillhumper style and just making it feel much more nimble overall. Given the CBN's supremely excellent hardpoints and naturally well-balanced construction, most players feel - rightly, as it may be - that the Medium climb profile is just too much. I've said as much myself, and still fully expect Piranha to knock that on the head at some point if the CBN goes as hog-wild as everyone expects it to.

But then a thought occurred to me. The CBN is a weapons platform, more than any other Clan heavy. The TBR is an all-around super-generalist that does everything well, the Summoner is a mobile raider with excellent maneuverability but questionable firepower, the Hellbringer is a weapons platform as well but one configured more for laser vomit and electronics than the CBN, and the Doge is...a thing.

The Cauldron-Born is a purpose-built hull-down hitter with more firepower than anything we're likely to get between now and Night Gyr, and in my tests with it the machine was a blast to play and also felt rather unique, in significant part because of its vertical agility and how much its climb profile facilitated its peek-and-poke fighting style.

What I'm wondering is this - we all know its current mobility profile is a bit too much, especially for something this awesome at guns. BUT...rather than override it to Large, as everyone is figuring...what if we cut its top speed by 5% instead? Invert the Summoner +5% speed quirk and saddle all CBN CTs with a -5% speed quirk, cutting into the machine's overall ground mobility and giving it an extra little niche over the other Clan heavies - it climbs better than they do but they beat it in a footrace. To me, that's supposed to be the intent of the quirks system anyways - to better differentiate 'Mechs and give each unique little bits of flavor.

Now this is just a wild notion I had; I have no idea if 5% speed penalty is enough to offset a Medium climb profile or not, but I figured I'd throw this out there, see what people thought of trading a bit of groundspeed for some extra hill-climbing ability. Do folks figure that might be fair? Why or why not? Lemme know what you think, this idea intrigues me.

[Ultimax]

Honestly I don't see this as an issue with the EBJ, I see this as a terrain code issue where traversing terrain is way more ponderous and frustrating than it needs to be.


It's a physically short mech, that's why it got medium archtype by the way - much like the Cataphract.

[ScarecrowES]

EBJ is already extremely fragile... big ol' CT and can only turn 90-degrees to each side... pretty vulnerable mech in a straight up fight. Thing's not even been out a week. Let's give it a bit before we start looking at messing with it.

[1453 R]

I know why it got Medium archetype, yeah. Heh, I just also know that it's a thing the Spheroids are going to get salty over when they get back to snarfing off at Clan folks.

Scarecrow: I'm not advocating Piranha drop everything to nerfhammer the CBN. Heh, mostly just want to see what people think of this notion as an intellectual thing. We all know the subject's going to start coming up, why not see if we can take a calm, thought-experimental look at it first?

[Ultimax]

1453 R, on 20 June 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

I just also know that it's a thing the Spheroids are going to get salty over when they get back to snarfing off at Clan folks.

Then when that happens feel free to reference this list:

[Hit the Deck]

This 'mech will very likely get the same laser nerf treatment like the TBR/SCR if the population continues to be high. Now, I can live with 5% penalty to speed because it's got a medium climbing profile but I'd also ask a buff to something if it got the same TBR/SCR treatment. Some positive quirks to ballistics (e.g. jam chance) or ERPPC (heat or speed) would be good IMO. I hope a buff to this two could encourage people to bring them to the field more often.

TBR will still be the agile monster (higher speed, can jump, better twisting capability) and EBJ could be the archetypal hull down gunner (slower speed, no arm actuator, cannot twist as far, but can climb better and prefers to shoot from a distance due to its shape).

Edited by Hit the Deck, 20 June 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[Sable]

I don't think they will nerf the energy points on the EBJ. It already does not run as cool as a timberwolf or stormcrow with similar loadouts. It's missing a few engine heatsinks and although on paper that may not be a big deal, in actual gameplay it becomes a huge factor.

At first i felt like the Timberwolf and EBJ should switch agility stats as it doesn't feel quite as responsive as the timberwolf while being 10 tons lighter. But now that i've had more time to play them i feel like it's a decent tradeoff. You sacrifice agility and armor to be able to pack in a similar amount of weapons. But it still is a smaller and lighter mech and the little benefit on hill climbing just seems a good fit. I'm not sure it should get any quirks really as it feels pretty good as is.

I still feel like the timberwolf was a victim of lack of variety rather then actually being better. When the EBJ was originally announced i had always planned to use them in community warfare over the timberwolf as their tonnage savings allows for greater versatility in dropdeck choices.

Edited by Sable, 20 June 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Sable, on 20 June 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

I don't think they will nerf the energy points on the EBJ. It already does not run as cool as a timberwolf or stormcrow with similar loadouts. It's missing a few engine heatsinks and although on paper that may not be a big deal, in actual gameplay it becomes a huge factor.
....

Well, it depends on what common loadout people bring (to CW). Could someone tell me how many EBJs are in CW currently? And with what kind of build? Maybe it's still too early to tell.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 20 June 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[ChapeL]

ScarecrowES, on 20 June 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

EBJ is already extremely fragile... big ol' CT and can only turn 90-degrees to each side... pretty vulnerable mech in a straight up fight. Thing's not even been out a week. Let's give it a bit before we start looking at messing with it.

It's painfull to level as well, that thing feels like a bathtub on legs... of course, I am expecting that to change once they are elited but in the mean time it's a chore. On top of that, people underestimate the use of lower arm actuators on a mech with that kind of torso twist restriction.

[Templar Dane]

HBR is more survivable. I end up lasting longer and doing more damage with it.

[1453 R]

The Hellbringer does seem to soak damage better, as do the Summoner and Timber Wolf. The CBN is better than the Doge, but what isn't? I have been noticing, now that I'm deep-diving on this machine, that I have to baby my CT pretty carefully or it tends to vanish quick. Forces me to pick my fights a bit more carefully than I generally have to with a TBR, though being able to hose someone down with a hex-set of cERML and get a hefty jump on the DPS race before cooling off with cUAC/5 fire has won me a few fights I would not have figured were mine to win.

[Templar Dane]

I think it's got some convergence issues when it comes to multiple uacs. I've gone through two more tons than I usually do in the HBR and come out with LESS damage, even though I have more heat sinks and more lasers.......it's really strange.

Edited by lordtzar, 20 June 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[Mr Hunter]

Hey pal the EBJ is already a bit two slow stock, technically its suppose to go 86 as well as the TBR oh and these

• http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Griffin
  
• http://www.sarna.net...ad_Dog_(Vulture)
  
• http://www.sarna.net...e_(Man_O%27_War)
  
• http://www.sarna.net...llbringer_(Loki)
  
• http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk

Need I say more? Slowing it down is pure stupidity! Adapt and overcome. Really not that hard. If an EBJ is camping a hill then you FLANK HIM. Does anyone here know tactics? I have to say that's the most effective way to inhibit my ability to kill you by being behind me, cause I cant shoot you. And I'm in a rock and a hard place here either I engage you in cqc with my sniper weapons or I crest the hill and expose myself to your (very pissedoff) team.

[FupDup]

B8hunter, on 20 June 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hey pal the EBJ is already a bit two slow stock, technically its suppose to go 86 as well as the TBR oh and these

• http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Griffin
  
• http://www.sarna.net...ad_Dog_(Vulture)
  
• http://www.sarna.net...e_(Man_O%27_War)
  
• http://www.sarna.net...llbringer_(Loki)
  
• http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shadow_Hawk

Need I say more? Slowing it down is pure stupidity! Adapt and overcome. Really not that hard. If an EBJ is camping a hill then you FLANK HIM. Does anyone here know tactics? I have to say that's the most effective way to inhibit my ability to kill you by being behind me, cause I cant shoot you. And I'm in a rock and a hard place here either I engage you in cqc with my sniper weapons or I crest the hill and expose myself to your (very pissedoff) team.

The speed issue you're seeing there is because TT had to round speeds up.

Normally, a mech's running MP was walking MP * 1.5. However, when you had an odd number of walking MP, this led to a decimal for running MP... The Cauldron Born for example had 5 walking MP and 7.5 running MP, which had to be rounded up to 8 running MP. This is why the Sarna speed is listed as 86 kph.

However, when we don't round the numbers, MWO's value of 81 kph is the "correct" raw value.

[Lightfoot]

The Ebon Jaguar is clumsy with a big center torso and not as tough as the Mad Cat or Summoner. It's so wide it has trouble negotiating city structure maps that other mechs do not. That's probably why giving it a Large movement profile was not reasonable. I don't see it as overpowered since most mechs are capable of taking it out quickly.

[Templar Dane]

Lightfoot, on 20 June 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

The Ebon Jaguar is clumsy with a big center torso and not as tough as the Mad Cat or Summoner. It's so wide it has trouble negotiating city structure maps that other mechs do not. That's probably why giving it a Large movement profile was not reasonable. I don't see it as overpowered since most mechs are capable of taking it out quickly.

And much like a crab/whale LRMs wreck it's CT from pretty much any direction.

[Sable]

i always felt like the Hellbringer melted pretty easily and it's only real advantage was the ECM personally. I find the EBJ's superior in every way outside of ECM. The Timberwolf still wins out though because of more armor and it's arms are closer to the center of the mech. But being able to take 3 EBJ's into CW is the winning factor in my opinion. It used to be 2 good mechs and then it fizzled out from there but now it's 3 good mechs and a spare.

[Eyepop]

I've had no trouble with the Cauldron Borns. They actually seem decently balanced to me. They're certainly not going to dethrone the TBR.

[Light-Speed]

1453 R, on 20 June 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

So after having a bunch of fun with M.A.S.C. in the Executioner, I decided to bite the bullet with the heavy queue times and start grinding out the rest of my Summer Heat grab bags with my Cauldron-Born. I'd experimented with a few fits on it previously, onesy-twosy games to see how a given thing felt, but this was the first one I sat down and played like mad for a buncha games straight.

First of all - I am digging the hell out of that machine up there. It's so nice I spent two thirds of my remaining C-bill stock fully module-ing it up, and I'm a total weekend-warrior spacepoor.

Are you sure that's the build you are having a blast in?... hard to believe with that heat... I guess you are just taking shots from the med-long... them medium lasers seem pretty useless to me with the heat and spread dmg, and weapons too hot to use just gets in the way of efficiency. Which kind of just makes it just run on pure UAC 5 and 2 UAC5 = dps of 6 or so.
So I am kind of confused by the build.
Just curious, what were you trying to achieve when you made that build?

Edited by Nightingale27, 20 June 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Great Pumpkin]

EBJs are just fine the way they are. Whatever advantages it have are counterbalanced by disadvantages.

The Omni pods are versatile but no matter what build you use, the EBR does not tank damage well.

Weapon hard points are great, but the same hard points also tell the enemy where to shoot if they want to pick you apart.

Low height is counterbalanced by wide girth and anyway what makes a good hill humper is shoulder mounts rather than being short.

Overall, the mech is capable but there really isn't a fear factor attached to it.

I'd rather buff underwhelming mechs rather than proactively proposing nerfs before the QQ brigade has even started.