119 replies to this topic

[Rushmoar]

JagdFlanker, on 21 June 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

at the bare minimum even out the ammo amounts so that a full ton of AC20 ammo is an even number so the half ton isn't less than half

3 rounds for a half ton? what the hell is that?

make each ton of ammo worth 200 damage like SRM ammo:

AC20 10 rnds/t
AC10 20 rnds/t
AC5 40 rnds/t
AC2 100 rnds/t

Gauss 14 rnds/t, or 13 rnds/t and 6 rnds/half ton since it's often used as an inert crit buffer (13.333 rnds for 200dmg)

LRM 200 rnds/t
SRM same 100 rnds/t

I like this idea. Don't think its a deal breaker by any means. And i get it, you cannot shot a half of a bullet but 3 rounds for a half ton of AC20?

[PowerKill Necron]

Vlad Striker, on 21 June 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

7t of ammo total enough to complete round with success. 1ML = 1T of ammo etc.

You, Sir, are why we can't have nice things. And part of the problem. Pew Pew is far superior to boom boom.

Edited by PKNecron, 21 June 2015 - 10:39 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Increasing Ammo per ton from 150% TT value to 200% would not have as massive an effect on TTK as is being suggested. In some rare cases, the few tons saved is the tipping point that allows someone to load that extra support weapon, or reorganize their loadouts to something a little more desirable. In none of these instances, however, is the TTK drastically affected, if at all. Some people might gain a slight improvement in heat dissipation, others might gain a slight increase in alpha damage or just move slightly faster.

The biggest buff would be for LRM Mechs and their ability to carry adequate support weapons and heat management in tandem with sufficient ammo.

My King Crab is a fairly good example of this change on the most extreme level:

Standard build.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1f60b93b47bf1db

16 Tons devoted entirely to ammo. It has a Damage Potential of 2,400 and I've ejected in quite a few CW matches with it doing 2,200+ and empty bins. I've run out of ammo several times in normal games as well. Why? Probably because I use rapid-fire ACs (2, 5/Ultra 5) for suppression and I'm pulling the trigger on corners/hills before the enemy comes around or over them. They're excellent for pinning people down or turning them around.

I already have no issues with keeping Lights from getting behind me and my KGC's speed is more than adequate for getting around.

With that in mind, what would happen if we had 200% TT Ammo values instead of 150%? Well, AC5/Ultra5 ammo goes from 30/ton to 40/ton. You get something like these:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9db96bf0f1087f5
520 Rounds instead of 480, 350XL instead of 325XL. It's faster and carries slightly more ammo. Not game breaking.

Or this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...67478bfbc22ab47
A variation of my STD300 build with 520 rounds instead of 450 and 2 extra heat sinks. Not game breaking.

Then there's this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1dfc2818b4af17d
440 Rounds instead of 330 and because zoom zoom!

These are examples on the absolute extreme end of the spectrum with a Mech that has a mass amount of its tonnage devoted to Ammo. Yeah... Increasing ammo per ton isnt remotely as scary as some of you are portraying it to be.

Maybe I'm doing this wrong... Let's try it out on something else:

Before
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...56f054ed0f752ac

After
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fff2e4e410776f0

OMG! - WATCH OUT FOR THAT PPC!

[Joseph Mallan]

I use 3-5 tons of ammo for any AC and 2-3 for Missiles and I rarely run out. I don't see a need for more ammo per ton.

[km1710]

I support OP proposal.

With laser spam builds, if you aim badly, you are not penalized and just have to wait the cd end, accordingly to heat scale which also is not penalizing in this game.

With ballistics, if you aim badly, you have wasted one of your limited chances to bring damage to the enemy.

They say "so aim better with them next time". What? are balllistic weapons some kind of elitist skill-check equipment? While with lazors I just wait few seconds and fire again and again, and who cares about supply?

At least increasing the ammo per ton will allow the players to afford some more aiming errors (or wasted shots due to enemy twisting); not at the laser level, but better than now at least.

Or, make the player PAY for energy weapons bad shots as well, decreasing heat cap. So the claim to "aim better and make them count" will be valid also for the laser vomit builds.

[Joseph Mallan]

km1710, on 22 June 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

I support OP proposal.

With laser spam builds, if you aim badly, you are not penalized and just have to wait the cd end, accordingly to heat scale which also is not penalizing in this game.

With ballistics, if you aim badly, you have wasted one of your limited chances to bring damage to the enemy.

They say "so aim better with them next time". What? are balllistic weapons some kind of elitist skill-check equipment? While with lazors I just wait few seconds and fire again and again, and who cares about supply?

At least increasing the ammo per ton will allow the players to afford some more aiming errors (or wasted shots due to enemy twisting); not at the laser level, but better than now at least.

Or, make the player PAY for energy weapons bad shots as well, decreasing heat cap. So the claim to "aim better and make them count" will be valid also for the laser vomit builds.

For the record, Mercs in the CBT universe also preferred lasers over Ballistics due to lower overhead cost due to less expendable costs. Ammo is supposed to be spend... wisely because it is in limited supply in the field.

[Kotzi]

The weapons are balanced. Stop making stupid changes and fix the hitreg. Lasers are hotter, it takes more time to do damage but they have unlimited ammo. Ballistics shoot faster, run cooler and dont spread damage as much but are limited in shots. Now you asked them to have less drawbacks? Make boating guns even more tempting? Fix the most important thing first then tweak from there on.

[Hotthedd]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

yo uknow "hitscan" just means instantaneous hit, yes? So "hitscan" can be PP-FLD, for the record. You might be looking for "DoT2, "Burst Fire", etc?

Burst-fire, thanks.

[mogs01gt]

Love the idea for increased LRM ammo. Now those damn LRM assaults can have som real backup weapons.

[Y E O N N E]

Kotzi, on 22 June 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

The weapons are balanced. Stop making stupid changes and fix the hitreg. Lasers are hotter, it takes more time to do damage but they have unlimited ammo. Ballistics shoot faster, run cooler and dont spread damage as much but are limited in shots. Now you asked them to have less drawbacks? Make boating guns even more tempting? Fix the most important thing first then tweak from there on.

You left weight and size out of your considerations. The weight eaten up by ballistic weapons in MWO far outweighs the amount you'd have to spend on heat-sinks to get several energy weapons into a usable heat range, and that's before factoring in ammo. More realistic weights for the weapons given their current utility would be 4/6/9/12 for AC/2/5/10/20 and the slots should be 1/2/6/8. I would point out that that is in the ballpark for what the Clan equipment weighs with the exception of the AC/10, which is over-weighted no matter which tech set we're talking about.

Weight and size are very much a part of the balancing act.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 June 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Lugh]

MUCH MUCH SIMPLER TO FIX.

Ammo Refill Consumable.

Done.

[Hotthedd]

Lugh, on 22 June 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

MUCH MUCH SIMPLER TO FIX.

Ammo Refill Consumable.

Done.

PLEASE tell me you are joking...

[Eyepop]

How is that simpler to fix, anyway?

[CDLord HHGD]

[Y E O N N E]

30 rounds in an HBK-4G for 3 tons would be amazing.

[cSand]

Since CW is the only place where runnning out of ammo is an issue, I would say rather than double the ammo, they have a little reloading platform where you can sit for a short amount of time while a truck loads you up again. No repairs - just reloading

[Y E O N N E]

I like to think using your opponent's armor and ammo resources against them is part of CW play. With reloading, you remove the ammo part of the equation. It's similar to how being able to lay ambushes for enemies you wounded in Halo multiplayer was removed as an option when regenerating health was added in Halo 2.

[Lugh]

Hotthedd, on 22 June 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

PLEASE tell me you are joking...

Everyone complains that ammo is their big limiter on ACs, this would allow you to refill on the go. The downside is that you don't get another arty or artillery strike

How is that joking or hard to understand?

[Weeny Machine]

Stefka Kerensky, on 21 June 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

NOPE again!

Let's talk about solving the instant convergence/pinpoint damage.
That is the issue.

But, anyway, pgi will never want to solve it.
I wrote countless thread about that issue since 2012.....

Removing instant convergene to some degree would solve so many problems. However, I have given up hope, too.

Just curious, Stefka, didn't people bring that up on Twitter in the past? And if so, how was Russ' reaction?

Lugh, on 22 June 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

MUCH MUCH SIMPLER TO FIX.

Ammo Refill Consumable.

Done.

Let me guess...40k per piece, right?

Edited by Bush Hopper, 22 June 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Lugh]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Because Lasers are hitscan, and take little talent to be marginally effective with. Because they are Light for effectiveness, even with their heat, and oh yeah, because the GH was upped to 3, instead of 2. And because in MWO, Tryhards always boat, instead of mixing loadouts. Synchronized weapon tend to be most effective. Also, you have to be able to actually AIM with Ballistics, as it's all or nothing, no DoT beam duration to let bads drag their laser on target to register SOME dmg. LRMs are too situation dependent...common in the Underhive, unsee in higher Elos. And SRMs don't fit the mid range peek style that most of the hide and peek wusses in MWO favor, currently.

With Clans it's easy.... their LRMs are Mediocre, light but stream fire means even more situational than IS LRMs. SRMs, are not uncommon on Clan mechs, but again the range is an issue, and their ballistics kind of suck. Not because of Ammo, but because of DoT mechanic.

And Gauss is quite common, but avoided by BADs, because aiming AND using a Charge Mechanic is too hard for most people who seem unable to tie their own shoes.

Addressing Laser Vomit would be nice. But to actually do that, one needs to accurately address the real problems. Not just throw out ideas to see what sticks. Paul did that to stop Poptarting, and it took 6 months, and nerfed everything BUT poptarting first.

I'd prefer to avoid a repeat.

Hint for the Bads.. A Backup laser you lead with when the cursor turns red...THEN fire your ballistics.