119 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Not to mention it would make stock mechs more viable.

Especially the Clan ones, like the Summoner or Kit Fox, with their 1 ton of LBX ammo.

Lots of reason here i like and agree with but this is number one....

[Lyoto Machida]

lordtzar, on 21 June 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

Okay. Ballistic/missile builds are FINE.

Don't need to be touched because they are perfect the way they are blah blah.

But why is laser vomit so prevalent? Why aren't these 6x LL stalkers packing any SRMs? Most people aren't packing backup weapons because of the tonnage requirements. Ease that back a bit with a measly 25% ammo buff and maybe people WILL.

Or...raise heat by 33% from TT values for all laser weapons like how the MLs went from 3 to 4 heat. Ammo stays the same and you'll see less laser vomit.

You may even see more PPCs/ERPPCs in CW. Not sure where all laser weapon heat levels are at in comparison to their TT counterparts currently...just throwing the idea out there.

[GRiPSViGiL]

To bad a good idea like this concerning balance will be ignored.

[STEF_]

Bush Hopper, on 22 June 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Just curious, Stefka, didn't people bring that up on Twitter in the past? And if so, how was Russ' reaction?

I don't have twitter, I only use the forum.
No idea if anyone wrote on twitter about this in the past.

I don't remember any dev writing or responding about convergence, though.

[Tombstoner]

GRiPSViGiL, on 22 June 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

To bad a good idea like this concerning balance will be ignored.

Agreed but for the love of BT/MW we troop on either as a white or black knight.

The real issue is PGI's management.

They chose to make a game with extremely high hit rates. TT used a 2D6 RND that makes a 7 the most common roll.
Mech design is the result of a cost function for defense speed/armor or damage balanced with heat or ammo.

PGI increased hit rates via player skill and lock on missiles but didn't change damage levels to compensate for the inflated damage that arrives from more hits. the solution was to double armor. A huge mistake because armor has synergy with speed.

The correct solution is to model the interactions between speed/armor and mech shape. This is a lot of work that make inter mech durability the same. I presume this was not done because its a lot of work when all you need is a ignorant set of players. not stupid/insulting simply doesn't know any better. BTW I'm a scientist who has optimized processes. I know my way around a DOE.

Over all thought you don't have to do any math or science simply because double armor / ghost heat / game play "feels right"

[Hotthedd]

Lugh, on 22 June 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Everyone complains that ammo is their big limiter on ACs, this would allow you to refill on the go. The downside is that you don't get another arty or artillery strike

How is that joking or hard to understand?

It isn't hard to understand at all.

I HOPED you were joking about a CONSUMABLE* that has no weight and no critical slots being able to instamagically reload several tons' worth of (possibly different types of) ammunition.


* consumable: N, a lazy, Band-Aid fix to a larger problem that has absolutely no rightful place in the BattleTech universe.

[Jman5]

I think at the very least most of us can agree that ammo/ton in Community Warfare is too low. Engagements last longer, there are a ton of NPC generators and turrets to shoot through, and general damage output per mech is higher than a regular match (at least for me).

We need some sort of mechanism to increase ammo in CW. There are several options mentioned here.
1. Re-arm station: You go to your little station and ammo gets reloaded over time. For balance sake you would probably want to limit it to once per mech and only to 50% capacity.

2. Ammo drop consumable. You can bring a consumable that replenishes ammo. Obviously you're limited to one.

3. Increases the ammo/ton for CW matches. Instead of 7 ac/20 rounds per ton, make it 10. I think a 50% (rounded down) increase to ammo per ton for CW is needed to make them competitive.

Edited by Jman5, 22 June 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 22 June 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

I think at the very least most of us can agree that ammo/ton in Community Warfare is too low. Engagements last longer, there are a ton of NPC generators and turrets to shoot through, and general damage output per mech is higher than a regular match (at least for me).

But...can we?

Not trying to harsh your mood, but I really have never felt that. Mechs in CW are essentially disposable, to be used up, then discarded. Same mechs I can get 800-1000 dmg with in Casual, I can usually do the same in CW. I do that dmg, and rack up 4-5 kills? That chassis has done it's job. Now I must decide if I have enough firepower left in my secondary weapons (and what shape I am still in) to keep fighting the next wave, or whether it's time to suicide scout.

But almost all my drop decks are predominantly Ammo Dependant, and while I don't claim to be dropping at top tier Comp levels with any regularity, they have alway worked fine.

Usually by the time I am out of ammo, my mech is pretty chewed up anyways. By the time I lay out similar energy Damage, I tend to be at least as chewed up. Yeah, If I can get ignored, I can run the whole match with a single LaserVomit. But that's the exception, not the rule.

[Jman5]

For counter attack kill count matters and ejecting out of a mech that is healthy but weaponless gives your opponents +1 kill. While I'll readily admit your mileage may vary on survival time, I don't agree that it's balanced. I can build an energy boat that's just as powerful in regular matches as it is in CW matches. I don't have to change anything. For missile and ballistic builds I have to strip my mechs down for more ammo space.

My hunchback 4J for example brings 10 tons of ammo for regular matches and I don't usually go through it all. In CW I have to make some very tough decisions to fit another 4 tons of ammo and I almost always run out. My energy boat thunderbolts on the other hand are interchangeable without any sacrifice.

The ammo/ton numbers were balanced around regular play and I think they're in pretty good shape there. I just don't think it's where it should be for community warfare.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 22 June 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

For counter attack kill count matters and ejecting out of a mech that is healthy but weaponless gives your opponents +1 kill. While I'll readily admit your mileage may vary on survival time, I don't agree that it's balanced. I can build an energy boat that's just as powerful in regular matches as it is in CW matches. I don't have to change anything. For missile and ballistic builds I have to strip my mechs down for more ammo space.

My hunchback 4J for example brings 10 tons of ammo for regular matches and I don't usually go through it all. In CW I have to make some very tough decisions to fit another 4 tons of ammo and I almost always run out. My energy boat thunderbolts on the other hand are interchangeable without any sacrifice.

The ammo/ton numbers were balanced around regular play and I think they're in pretty good shape there. I just don't think it's where it should be for community warfare.

Understood, but on average how many kills/how much damage doe sthat 4J do in CW?

[Jman5]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Understood, but on average how many kills/how much damage doe sthat 4J do in CW?

My 4J is in the middle of my drop deck so by the time it dies, I don't usually remember how much damage the mech(s) before it did. All I know for sure is that I almost always have to eject out of it due to loss of ammo. However, Next time my contract is IS, I'll pay attention to its damage specifically. As for kills its all over the place. You know how random those can be. Sometimes you get lucky and get all the killshots, sometimes you get none. Likely its on the low-end because LRMs are like that and I do make an attempt to pull my shots when I think a mech is about to die. Mechs like the 4J fire so quickly if you aren't careful you'll have 60-100 wasted LRMs in the air heading toward a dead mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 22 June 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

My 4J is in the middle of my drop deck so by the time it dies, I don't usually remember how much damage the mech(s) before it did. All I know for sure is that I almost always have to eject out of it due to loss of ammo. However, Next time my contract is IS, I'll pay attention to its damage specifically. As for kills its all over the place. You know how random those can be. Sometimes you get lucky and get all the killshots, sometimes you get none. Likely its on the low-end because LRMs are like that and I do make an attempt to pull my shots when I think a mech is about to die. Mechs like the 4J fire so quickly if you aren't careful you'll have 60-100 wasted LRMs in the air heading toward a dead mech.

Very true, using LRMboats in CW is as much art as science. I will have to track my 4J and on my alt account my MDD 6xLRM5. I unless we just get face rushed I usually do yeoman work with both, but the exact numbers, and compared to rest of my Deck? Do need more info, for science!

[Escef]

mogs01gt, on 22 June 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Love the idea for increased LRM ammo. Now those damn LRM assaults can have som real backup weapons.

The folks that bring no backup weapons on LRM boats will STILL bring no backup weapons. They'll just shryug, be happy for the higher ammo count, and continue on thier merry way. It never occurs to them that they have 5 or 6 tons of unused ammo at the end of almost every game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Not to mention it would make stock mechs more viable.

Especially the Clan ones, like the Summoner or Kit Fox, with their 1 ton of LBX ammo.

Clanners don't fight the way you want them to. They fight duels. So they only need enough Ammo to bring down 1 or 2 Mechs and their part of the battle is done. Play your faction man!

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

Clanners don't fight the way you want them to. They fight duels. So they only need enough Ammo to bring down 1 or 2 Mechs and their part of the battle is done. Play your faction man!

So... if they take out 2 mechs and the fighting is still going on, they just take their ball and go home?

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 23 June 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

So... if they take out 2 mechs and the fighting is still going on, they just take their ball and go home?

They sit back and watch their allies fight. Its known as a circle of equals.

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2015 - 02:05 AM, said:

They sit back and watch their allies fight. Its known as a circle of equals.

And if their allies die, then they join the fight again and challenge people to duels? And thus... they will need ammo?

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 23 June 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

And if their allies die, then they join the fight again and challenge people to duels? And thus... they will need ammo?

Or they need big ballz cause they would be fighting handicapped and that gains more glory so more ammo not really a necessity.

[Weeny Machine]

Escef, on 23 June 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

The folks that bring no backup weapons on LRM boats will STILL bring no backup weapons. They'll just shryug, be happy for the higher ammo count, and continue on thier merry way. It never occurs to them that they have 5 or 6 tons of unused ammo at the end of almost every game.

Play a Trebuchet-7M. Mine carries about 1400 missiles and I have to consider when to fire and when not (or go all out) or I run dry in no time.

[Nightshade24]

The thing is they increased armour and not ammo that much for a reason...

This would also make missile builds very um... light on ammo to work? you only need like 4 rounds for any LRM build in the assaults, 4 x LRM 15 with cooldown module? no worries 4 / 4.5 / 5 is enough...
Got 2 LRm 15's? 1 or 2 is good enough.

Got a single LRM 20 or a total LRM count of 20 or less? 1 or a half ton..


I think instead we should have a system along the lines of...

1) for every light mech, give a modifier for ammo increase overall on all weapons. This will support IS ammo dependent builds such as LRM builds, SRM builds, or AC builds or mg.
or for clan mechs just make them better overall then they are now...

2) for every clan mech which does not have endo steel, get a little bonus to ammo.
for every mech who has no ES or FF, that's a bit of a larger ammo buff...

3) For mechs that are hindered due to hard wiring specificly and can not peform what would be in lore a good build or in TT (Mad dog C, Timberwolfs with LRM's, Gargoyles, etc) then a minor ammo buff. (Note: I think this should be weapon specific... just to prevent OP timberwolf builds coming... you can't have an OP LRM timberwolf right?...)



These are the 3 main points I got for additional ammo... I think some certain key medium, heavies, and (rarely) assaults should get this ammo quirk but I do not want some freak of nature like...

"AC 5 + 25% cooldown, AC 5 range +20%, AC 5 heat -10%, AC 5 ammo + 20%, AC 5 Velocity +40%" on the Dragon 1N. I hate how some mechs simply have rather A) stupid 50% quirk, or B)Spammed all the quirks for that weapon as a 'nerf'.

I can think of a dragon rocking something like 10% veloctiy, 30% more range, 5% cooldown penalty. and then something more focused for E and M but I am getting of topic here... in short: I do not want ammo to be another bandaid in a spam quirk for a 'nerf'...

I want it to be something special kinda. and a minor buff to light mechs as they struggle with ammo the most...

you LRM light players, Ballistic light players, locusts and spiders...commandoes too... and who can forget the urbanmech... all these wouldn't mind from a light ammo quirk.



I suggest the best way to fix this 'overall' is allow the IS to switch regular (not UAC, not LBX, just normal...) AC ammo for caseless.

Doubles your ammo per tonnage with a jam chance...

Risk / reward factor... I think the UAC jam chance quirk should have 50% of the quirk on Caseless ammo... so if you got say UAc jam chance 30% reduction... and got a caselss ammo AC 10...
it has a 15% reduced chance to jam instead of 30.