39 replies to this topic

[mekabuser]

when?

Each new map is more cluttered than the next, especially CW maps and yet this game continues to not have working collision.

AT this point, I dont even care about anything fancy, hell I would be happy if I heard a bird fart fx everytime my mech came in contact with an object on the map.

Its been years.. and years.

It is quite frankly a joke akin to a racing game without drifting or drafting.. or COLLISION.

The only thing more insulting would see it depicted with all the other make believe gameplay features and mechanics I stare at on the forums every time I make a post.

[Revis Volek]

We had it....then Dragon bowling became a thing and they removed it.

PGI could not get it to work correctly and removed it.


Are you really crying about MAKE BELIEVE features in a game set 1000+ years in the future with walking robots and lasers?

Edited by DarthRevis, 22 June 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[Tombstoner]

The simple answer is never. Personal i think it should be implemented as a one shot consumable. Charging was a viable attack in TT. of course that means nothing.
Still if you could pay to turn your self solid for 5 seconds just as your about to hit a target then yes you should he able to take someone out. but the days of unlimited take downs had to go.

[Armored Yokai]

DarthRevis, on 22 June 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Are you really crying about MAKE BELIEVE features

How are collisions make believe?

[Mcgral18]

Collisions != Knockdown


Collisions are not running through people...which need some work. Knockdown is Dragon Bowling.

Edited by Mcgral18, 22 June 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Huh, that led me to look up bird farts on youtube and I'm not convinced any of those videos are real. Off to more research!

[Revis Volek]

mekabuser, on 22 June 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

The only thing more insulting would see it depicted with all the other make believe gameplay features and mechanics I stare at on the forums every time I make a post.

I was poking fun at this comment....

Obviously went over you head. Just jokes....not bad blood meant by it.

Armored Yokai, on 22 June 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

How are collisions make believe?

I never said they were.....dunno where you got it from.

Edited by DarthRevis, 22 June 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Can we also get a rear camera view? And an option to turn on glowing yellow amber lights with back up beeping noises?

Because I have a feeling when people are crammed in a tight spot like they usually always are, there's going to be a lot of "YOU'RE BLOCKING ME!" "STOP STANDING BEHIND ME!" dialogue happening.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 22 June 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 June 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Can we also get a rear camera view? And an option to turn on glowing yellow amber lights with back up beeping noises?

Because I have a feeling when people are crammed in a tight spot like they usually always are, there's going to be a lot of "YOU'RE BLOCKING ME!" "STOP STANDING BEHIND ME!" dialogue happening.

That already happens, and it gets REAL annoying sometimes when I'm in an Assault. I either can't fire because someone in a Light decided to run in front of me and STOP right as I get ready to fire at the Dire Wolf staring at my Executioner, OR I peek out, see half the enemy team, and try to get back in cover, only to find I can't because the entire Light lance is up my ass and I get to see exactly how long that kind of focus fire takes to kill a 95 ton Mech(under 10 seconds btw unless the idiots behind me fire back, then it's under 5 seconds..and they DO fire back despite me being between them and the enemy!).

We NEED collisions, with or without knockdown, because we have way too many people who pay NO attention at all to where they are and where their teammates are, so they are constantly blocking, hitting, getting fired on, or firing into teammates. Light pilots are some of the worst offenders by far, with many using the fact that they can hit an enemy Mech and warp through it as a 'valid tactic'.

[Kiiyor]

mekabuser, on 22 June 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

when?

Each new map is more cluttered than the next, especially CW maps and yet this game continues to not have working collision.

AT this point, I dont even care about anything fancy, hell I would be happy if I heard a bird fart fx everytime my mech came in contact with an object on the map.

Its been years.. and years.

It is quite frankly a joke akin to a racing game without drifting or drafting.. or COLLISION.

The only thing more insulting would see it depicted with all the other make believe gameplay features and mechanics I stare at on the forums every time I make a post.

We'll get it, eventually. The last PGI spoke of it, they said they wanted to get the implementation right - because the old system was a huge performance drain, and was completely vulnerable to exploitation. Dragon and Jenner bowling saw to that. Heck, in some of the 8 man streams, they had Jenners specifically devoted to keeping Atlai on the ground.

There was talk at one stage of making it a part of a skill tree, where heavies could equip that perk and unlock a charge ability.

Not sure what we'll end up with though. I think we need to keep knockdowns as exceedingly rare, and have course deviations and damage instead. Something like a huge impulse impact to your mech, and around 2 seconds of control loss as your mech's gyro struggles to cope with keeping you upright.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

That already happens, and it gets REAL annoying sometimes when I'm in an Assault. I either can't fire because someone in a Light decided to run in front of me and STOP right as I get ready to fire at the Dire Wolf staring at my Executioner, OR I peek out, see half the enemy team, and try to get back in cover, only to find I can't because the entire Light lance is up my ass and I get to see exactly how long that kind of focus fire takes to kill a 95 ton Mech(under 10 seconds btw unless the idiots behind me fire back, then it's under 5 seconds..and they DO fire back despite me being between them and the enemy!).

We NEED collisions, with or without knockdown, because we have way too many people who pay NO attention at all to where they are and where their teammates are, so they are constantly blocking, hitting, getting fired on, or firing into teammates. Light pilots are some of the worst offenders by far, with many using the fact that they can hit an enemy Mech and warp through it as a 'valid tactic'.

Yeah. It gets pretty bad. What's worse though is when you're in the assault behind a medium and a heavy at the start of a game, and you're following them down a canal, and they stop dead and start backing up because the enemy is right there, and they all back up into you and you can only slow down and back up so fast. Then when we finally get cleared out and they took heavy damage, they both turn around and kill me lol. I thought it was funny, because they had the support of a 100ton weapons platform, but instead of letting me by to push the enemy away, they instead grab their balls and back up, and then feel the need to kill me because they took damage that "wasn't deserved". They were a 2-man group.

Oi.

But more interestingly, I was playing a timberwolf after a long break with them, and in canyon network i was peeking over the ridge and shooting down at the other team. One of their jenners makes their way around and stands behind me. When the other team started shooting at me I couldn't back up, quickly realized that there was an enemy behind me because of a UAV, but I had to lol. it was pretty funny and kind of interesting because I've never had an enemy mech deliberately put themselves behind me and stop me from backing up. It was pretty smart. It would have been really effective, I would have thought it was a rock.

I expect to see more of that in the future when collisions come online and you can do that more effectively. I wonder if collisions is going to cause heavy damage though... I would assume that would be the only way to stop people from butt-sniffing and light mechs from slicing through a pack of heavier ones.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 22 June 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[DaZur]

What you talking about?! We have collisions in game right now...

It's the ramifications of said collisions is what's missing.

Edited by DaZur, 22 June 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kiiyor, I like the 'shock' effect you describe as your gyro tries to compensate for the collision, but I actually want knockdowns to be possible. They shouldn't happen EVERY time you hit another Mech, but they should happen when you have serious imbalances in the masses, speeds and positions of the Mechs involved.

Jenner doing 150kph, getting airborn and hitting a stationary Atlas in the upper torso, both Mechs should hit the ground.

Jenner rounds a corner at 150kph and hits an Atlas in the legs, Jenner should fall down, Atlas shouldn't.

Atlas is hauling ass, as much as it can, rounds a corner and hits a Jenner, no one is going to be falling down.

Hunchback runs into an Atlas, no one is falling down.

Knockdowns should be possible, just not common, and that was on the biggest problems with how collisions worked in CB.


MoonUnitBeta I've used my Mechs to block enemy targets from moving many times when I'm out of guns, it's a great tactic.

As for damage from collisions, TT actually has very simple damage tables to base that off of, and it's not real massive, you won't be knocking holes in other Mechs, but you could, after a few collisions, find yourself with multiple armor breaches, maybe even a lost limb.

[stjobe]

Low-speed collisions should be more about pushing the lighter 'mech aside than dealing damage. No need to punish light 'mechs any more than they already are by having friendlies strip their armour. We have the enemy to do that just fine, thank you.

High-speed collisions should deal a lot of damage to both 'mechs, based off tonnage. By "a lot" I mean enough that you don't want to be involved in more than one or two high-speed collisions per match, tops.

Charging should be its own special attack where the attacker takes less damage than the target, proportional to speed and tonnage. The rationale is that the attacker knows when to brace for impact, tries to hit the enemy where it hurts, and tries to shield his 'mech as well as possible. Compare two NFL players colliding vs one shoulder-tackling the other.

DFA, same as charging; special attack, It would need working jump jets though, so perhaps just forget about that one...

Punching/kicking; again, just map a couple of buttons for them, when pressed the 'mech executes a punch/kick. If it hits anything, it does damage. If not, nothing happens. Damage as per TT rules (including melee weapons doing damage as kicks).

Knockdowns then... Well, if we must have them, they should be something you can actively avoid, e.g. by turning into the hit. Miss the turn, fall down. Make it, remain standing. But most importantly, falling down and getting up should be rather quick, at the absolute maximum three seconds from start to finish. Because having the other team sacrifice a 'mech to knock one of yours down so the rest of them can alpha several times into your defenseless 'mech got old really, really fast.

[Kristov Kerensky]

stjobe, on 22 June 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Low-speed collisions should be more about pushing the lighter 'mech aside than dealing damage. No need to punish light 'mechs any more than they already are by having friendlies strip their armour. We have the enemy to do that just fine, thank you.

High-speed collisions should deal a lot of damage to both 'mechs, based off tonnage. By "a lot" I mean enough that you don't want to be involved in more than one or two high-speed collisions per match, tops.

Charging should be its own special attack where the attacker takes less damage than the target, proportional to speed and tonnage. The rationale is that the attacker knows when to brace for impact, tries to hit the enemy where it hurts, and tries to shield his 'mech as well as possible. Compare two NFL players colliding vs one shoulder-tackling the other.

DFA, same as charging; special attack, It would need working jump jets though, so perhaps just forget about that one...

Punching/kicking; again, just map a couple of buttons for them, when pressed the 'mech executes a punch/kick. If it hits anything, it does damage. If not, nothing happens. Damage as per TT rules (including melee weapons doing damage as kicks).

Knockdowns then... Well, if we must have them, they should be something you can actively avoid, e.g. by turning into the hit. Miss the turn, fall down. Make it, remain standing. But most importantly, falling down and getting up should be rather quick, at the absolute maximum three seconds from start to finish. Because having the other team sacrifice a 'mech to knock one of yours down so the rest of them can alpha several times into your defenseless 'mech got old really, really fast.

RE : Knockdowns,

That's why I said knockdowns should be possible, just not common. A Light shouldn't be able to knock down anything but another Light unless it's moving really fast, 130kph+, and hits the larger Mech above it's center of balance, so it'll need to be airborn. And it's going to end up on the ground as well, and take damage from the collision AND the fall, which in a Light isn't something you'll be big on doing repeatedly.

10 pts of damage on the surface that makes contact first for each Mech for a full speed collision, which is going to vary Mech to Mech, so we'd need a set 'full speed' number. Considering the masses involved, that speed doesn't need to be high to cause damage, so 45+kph? Key words here, surface that makes contact FIRST, so you only take damage to 1 specific location, not all over the Mech as they collide.

I'd love to see charging and melee, but that's probably not in the cards any time soon, if ever.

I'd just love to see collisions have an actual reason to be avoided right now, with or without knockdowns, so that when those little tryhards in their Firestarters ram my King Crab, they won't warp through me, they'll be standing right there where they hit me at, hurting, as I put dual 20s into their stunned asses.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 22 June 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 June 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Can we also get a rear camera view? And an option to turn on glowing yellow amber lights with back up beeping noises?

Because I have a feeling when people are crammed in a tight spot like they usually always are, there's going to be a lot of "YOU'RE BLOCKING ME!" "STOP STANDING BEHIND ME!" dialogue happening.

Yeah, collision exists now, of course, but it's somewhat loose and honestly this is a good thing.

Otherwise, due to latency you'd have all kinds of issues about colliding with people who - to you - look like they aren't there at all.

That is why "collision" as people want it isn't in the game right now. It would have to be determined server side, so you'd have collisions happening between people who aren't colliding.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Wintersdark, on 22 June 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yeah, collision exists now, of course, but it's somewhat loose and honestly this is a good thing.

Otherwise, due to latency you'd have all kinds of issues about colliding with people who - to you - look like they aren't there at all.

That is why "collision" as people want it isn't in the game right now. It would have to be determined server side, so you'd have collisions happening between people who aren't colliding.

Collisions got removed because the clientside auth that this game has natively combined with someone's really brilliant collision/knockdown system caused all kinds of hell and the warping upon knockdown that you describe, NOT the serverside auth it uses now. They haven't been put back in because it's not a priority, there are really too many other issues and features that need to be fixed/finished before they can put time into collisions.

And if your latency is so high that you collide with objects you think are somewhere else, why are you even trying to play the game? Half a second ping, 500ms, is what you would need to be THAT far out of place from what you see at the speeds we travel in MWO. Unless you are constantly riding up someone's ass that is, in which case, you are exactly the kind of person we're talking about.

Russ has repeatedly stated collisions WILL be put back in, once they have the time to devote to doing them correctly. Some of us just wish it was sooner, like last year sooner, because we're tired of the bs from people exploiting the halfassed collision system currently in place.

[Wintersdark]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Collisions got removed because the clientside auth that this game has natively combined with someone's really brilliant collision/knockdown system caused all kinds of hell and the warping upon knockdown that you describe, NOT the serverside auth it uses now. They haven't been put back in because it's not a priority, there are really too many other issues and features that need to be fixed/finished before they can put time into collisions.

This game has always been server authoritative. From the very beginning.

Quote

And if your latency is so high that you collide with objects you think are somewhere else, why are you even trying to play the game? Half a second ping, 500ms, is what you would need to be THAT far out of place from what you see at the speeds we travel in MWO. Unless you are constantly riding up someone's ass that is, in which case, you are exactly the kind of person we're talking about.

My latency is fine. I'm in central Canada on a major backbone.

But it isn't just your latency, it's your latency AND the other players latency, the sum of both. You don't need a lot of latency to have strange things happen with me he moving at high speeds. Consider: a friendly light at 170kph turning and ideally coming up parallel to you... But due to latency, his turn is delayed and he collides with you. He's a dead man now, if knockdown is a thing, despite doing nothing wrong.

On his screen, he's turned in front of you, yet the two of you have now collided.

It's NOT simple. These things are fixable, but it's not a simple process of switching old collision and knockdown back on. We DO have collision as it stands now, but it's loose.

Quote

Russ has repeatedly stated collisions WILL be put back in, once they have the time to devote to doing them correctly. Some of us just wish it was sooner, like last year sooner, because we're tired of the bs from people exploiting the halfassed collision system currently in place.

exploiting it? How? It IS a half-assed solution currently, but at least it's one that errs on the side of not causing problems.

I know Russ has talked about re implementing "proper" collision, but things happen when they happen. *shrugs* I'm just not seeing why it's such an important thing that has to happen now.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Wintersdark, this game was clientside auth when CB started, using the native CryEngine netcode. CryTek only does clientside netcode, and it's not even good netcode. It took a while to get the game to a serverside auth system, and it was a royal PITA because they had to refactor it in because the original netcode is part of the core engine. They are still working on the netcode and probably always will be. Hell even the devs over at Star Citizen have talked about the native CryEngine netcode being clientside and how they are working to make it serverside, because it can't handle more than 16 players before everything goes to hell and it's just not very good to begin with.

If your ping is under 500ms, unless you are up someone's ass at 150+kph, you won't be hitting them due to positional issues. This is far from the first game to have collisions, and with pings under 500ms, especially at the speeds we hit in MWO, you won't be THAT far out of position. Even when we had knockdowns and collisions, Mechs that got knocked down weren't WAY over there, they were a few meters off from where we thought they were, and that was due to a mixture of the badly done collision/knockdown system which bounced you off what you hit combined with the horrible clientside auth netcode the engine came with, it wasn't designed to handle the PLAYERS being knocked around.

[stjobe]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

RE : Knockdowns [snip]

Your irrational hatred for lights is shining through there, Kristov.

Try suggesting something that's fair for all weight classes instead of something that's obviously and blatantly designed to make your assault benefit from the mechanics.