102 replies to this topic

[Kushko]

Its been said many times and it will be said many times more until we get trough to PGI. The current buy 3 to master 1 system is horrible. Its not really a big deal for veteran players who have been playing for years but a new player (just recently had a friend experience this) coming in to the game buying their first mech and feeling a sense of accomplishment only to be told he has to buy 2 more variants of the same mech if he really wants to be competitive instead of buying a brand new chassis and keeping the fun and sense of progression going...well thats just soul sucking.

Something needs to change if this game ever wants proper new player retention especially when it launches on steam, because the current 3 mech system alone will just devastate all that untapped potential of new people coming in to the game.

So what to do? I suggest letting anyone who owns the 1 mech to be able to skill up all the way to master skill level with no restrictions (we could also mention the skill system is quite bad, with skills that apparently do nothing that are still in there even after 2 years, but that is a theme for another topic). Instead use the "buy and master 3 of the same mech chassis" for non competitive bonuses like a permanent 10% cbill bonus on any mech of that chassis, or some cosmetic stuff like a "hey look, i mastered this chassis so i get this skin" type of thing. With the release of CW we have even more incentive to buy more variants of the same chassis to bring inside our dropship. The buy 3 to master 1 is outdated and not needed anymore (actually in my opinion it was never needed, but thats debatable).

Speed boost, faster rate of fire, heat efficiency and other competitive bonuses SHOULD NOT be tied in to the 3 mech mechanic as they currently are and instead should be replaced with economic and/or cosmetic bonuses.

Thanks for reading. I hope you agree, if not please add your own suggestions and ideas.

*edit* Also my post wasnt meant to imply that PGI is greedy or that the 3 mech mechanics is a symptom of greed. Anyone can just spend more time and get 3 mechs to master, its not really a big deal (granted you might want to buy a mechlab or two but those are cheaper than 1 beer so i dont feel bad for people who complain about that). My point is that the mechanic is not fun and we play games for fun. And on top of that it brings almost nothing if not even a negative impact of PGIs ability to monetize their game.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 12:43 AM.

[PowerKill Necron]

So agree, that's what they call a paywall in the F2P genre, and that is uncool in any game. I don't begrudge PGI trying to make a dime--I already gave them a ton of money--but neutering people without deep pockets isn't very cool. Add to that the fact that they keep C-bill payouts extremely low to push MC for mech buying. And that the average mech costs probably close to 15 bucks, and I start to feel I am being nickle and dimed to death.

Of, course, we both have to prepare to get flamed for daring to say PGI was doing something disreputable.

Edited by PKNecron, 23 June 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[Kushko]

It is my opinion that even financially for PGI this mechanic hurts them more than it helps. I bet there are thousands of players that did not give the game a proper chance on the basis of this mechanic alone.

I have spent hundreds of € on this game and not a single one was because of the buy 3 mechanic. I would say i even play and pay less because of it. Over the past 2 years i have tried to bring 9 of my friends in to this game and i doubt it would shock anyone if i say that not a single one of them stuck with it and 8 out of 9 left it because of the buy 3 to master 1 mechanic (the 9th one just didnt like the gameplay all that much and didnt even get to the point of disliking the mechanic).

How many of your friends did not stick with the game with the mentioned mechanic taking the lions share of the blame for it? I would love to hear other players experience.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 12:42 AM.

[mailin]

Uh. Sorry, but it is entirely possible to grind as many mechs as you want without paying a cent to PGI. PKNecron, you can buy the vast majority of mechs with the c-bills that you earn from each drop. If you are seriously spending real money for mechs that is your decision. I have very few mechs that I have spent real money on.

Yes there is a grind to MWO. It can be lessened by spending real money at the players' discretion. If you feel like you are being nickel and dimed to death then stop paying real money: it's as simple as that.

To the OP, I don't have a problem with the current system. The system was established to keep the players playing the game. Want to get better efficiencies for your mech? Play more. Want to make the grind faster? Spend real money.

[Sir Wulfrick]

I agree completely. I feel quite privileged to have come out of closed beta with a fair amount of C bills in the bank. I can only imagine how soul destroying it must be to finish the cadet period having scraped together enough to buy a shiny new mech, only to find that I'd need almost the same amount again to make the build viable, not including the ridiculously priced modules, and then to find that I needed to buy another 2 variants of the same chassis!

Were I not a hard-core battletech fan I'd give serious consideration as to whether the game was worth the time input at that point.

Very obviously the early game experience is absolutely vital for player retention. This, I feel, needs quite a lot of work by PGI prior to them even thinking about releasing MWO on steam...

[Khobai]

Quote

nstead use the "buy and master 3 of the same mech chassis" for non competitive bonuses like a permanent 10% cbill bonus on any mech of that chassis

I suggested this a while back.

Let people master a mech without owning 3 variants.

But each variant beyond the first that you master would give you a +5% cbill bonus.

So if you have three mastered Atlases, each one would get +10% cbill. Because youd have two Atlases beyond the first.



But IMO a large part of the problem is that the current "skill" system simply isnt fun. Im even hesitant to call what we have now a skill system.

I dont think I would mind having to own 3 mechs to master a mech if the skill system was a lot better. But right now its just a horrendously boring grind wall.

If we had a more modular skill system that let us swap out different skills and customize the role of the mech I think grinding would be A LOT more tolerable. Grinding would feel less like grinding because youd be able to experiment with different skill combinations to find what works.

Getting rid of the grind progression unlock tree in favor of an actual skill tree that requires players to make intelligent choices about what skills to take would be a MASSIVE improvement to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2015 - 12:54 AM.

[Kushko]

Sir Wulfrick, on 23 June 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Were I not a hard-core battletech fan I'd give serious consideration as to whether the game was worth the time input at that point.

Very obviously the early game experience is absolutely vital for player retention. This, I feel, needs quite a lot of work by PGI prior to them even thinking about releasing MWO on steam...

Could not agree more. Hardcore battletech fans will stick with the game as is. Players that love the gameplay and dont mind the grind will mostly stick with it as well. But the average Joe that just wants to have fun is very likely to abandon the game as soon as he learns about the buy 3 master 1 mechanic and as such will never really learn to play and start to have fun, let alone get hooked on the mech packs and other stuff to spend money.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 12:50 AM.

[mailin]

You guys are talking about fundamentally changing the way experience works. Ain't gonna happen. Something for you to think about is, is this the most pressing problem with this game? If you honestly feel that it is then by all means go ahead and try to get PGI to change the game structure. Otherwise focus your energies elsewhere.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

already made topic about this.... dunno, if someone listening...

[Sir Wulfrick]

Khobai, on 23 June 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

I suggested this a while back.

Let people master a mech without owning 3 variants.

But each variant beyond the first that you master would give you a +5% cbill bonus.

So if you have three mastered Atlases, each one would get +10% cbill. Because youd have two Atlases beyond the first.

Damned good idea! My 8 Atlases would make me a fortune

In all seriousness, this is a good idea. It would still give the player something to aspire to without making the grind quite as silly as it currently is. As an aside, I've often thought that there ought to be a very high-end bonus that would only be purchaseable with mech XP (not general XP) in order to reflect players who chose to get huge experience using a certain chassis.

For example, prior to one of the recent conversion sales I had 500K XP on my bog-standard founders' Atlas-D. As the game is that amount of XP sitting on any one chassis is pointless. I'd propose being able to spend say 200K XP to acquire one of a number of possible small but significant bonuses. There could even be fluff to go with them:

1. You have fought thousands of battles across numberless different worlds in your [insert mech type]. This allows you to get the very best from your sensor systems. +10% sensor range.

2. Your huge experience in [insert mech type] has given you the ability to fine-tune the engine system to achieve maximum possible power. +5% top speed.

3. Your experience in [insert mech type] against thousands of varying foes has taught you to get the very best out of the protection your armour offers. +5% to maximum armour.

Etc. Etc.

Pick 1, you can only ever have 1, and that will cost 200K mech XP. GXP cannot be used to purchase this.

[Xetelian]

A more robust system of mastery for a chassis would be ideal.

Having to use 3 chassis to master the chassis is frustrating, especially when only 1 or 2 of the chassis is worth driving (in some cases none).

[Khobai]

Quote

Something for you to think about is, is this the most pressing problem with this game?

Lack of role warfare is actually one of the most pressing problems with the game. And a complete redo of the skill system helps address that.

Quote

Damned good idea! My 8 Atlases would make me a fortune

Having duplicate variants obviously wouldnt stack.

So if theres 6 different atlas variants the most you could get is a +25%. But maybe cap it at 15% if 25% is too much. You could have diminishing returns.

For example:
2 mechs = +5%
3 mechs = +9%
4 mechs = +12%
5 mechs = +14%
6 mechs = +15%

But the point is they need to do something to make the game feel like less of a grind. Either get rid of the grind or make the grind more fun by having a more compelling skill system. Like I said before, Id probably be okay with having to own 3 mechs to master one if the skill system wasnt so terrible.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2015 - 01:03 AM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Khobai, on 23 June 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Lack of role warfare is actually one of the most pressing problems with the game. And a complete redo of the skill system helps address that.



Having duplicate variants obviously wouldnt stack.

So if theres 6 different atlas variants the most you could get is a +25%.

But maybe cap it at 15% if 25% is too much.

I know, I know. One can but dream

[Kushko]

mailin, on 23 June 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

You guys are talking about fundamentally changing the way experience works. Ain't gonna happen. Something for you to think about is, is this the most pressing problem with this game? If you honestly feel that it is then by all means go ahead and try to get PGI to change the game structure. Otherwise focus your energies elsewhere.

I think this is one of the most pressing problems with the game, yes. In F2P games the sense of fun progression makes or breaks the game and in the case of MWO and new player experience it mostly just breaks it.

And on top of that, the fact that even though the fundamental idea would drastically change, it wouldnt really take all that much in terms of programming and designing manpower. Unless their coding is a mess (which it might as well be), but they'll have to untangle and improve that eventually, so why not start now and fix it for new player retention before anyone and everyone that would potentially be interested in a robot shooter already shelves it because of the horrible progression system.

Sir Wulfrick, on 23 June 2015 - 12:55 AM, said:

1. You have fought thousands of battles across numberless different worlds in your [insert mech type]. This allows you to get the very best from your sensor systems. +10% sensor range.

2. Your huge experience in [insert mech type] has given you the ability to fine-tune the engine system to achieve maximum possible power. +5% top speed.

3. Your experience in [insert mech type] against thousands of varying foes has taught you to get the very best out of the protection your armour offers. +5% to maximum armour.

Etc. Etc.

Pick 1, you can only ever have 1, and that will cost 200K mech XP. GXP cannot be used to purchase this.

While its a good enough idea, i dont think it would work very well for 2 reasons. First is that PGI shouldnt really want you to focus on 1 mech alone since they make most of their money selling mechs. They want you to buy and play as many mechs as possible.

Second is from a players perspective and that is that it would be much better if it gave you a cosmetic bonus instead of actual combat bonuses (you want combat to be based on skill not how many hours a player spent on the game). Like for example you spent so much time battling with that 1 mech its like your life companion at this point instead of just a piece of machine. As such you personalized it, like add a decal with lines noting how many kills (wouldnt actually reflect ur actual ingame stats unless u want thousands of lines on it ) or you put some extra cosmetic armor on it or a shining eye like the Atlai of old had. Stuff like that.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 01:06 AM.

[Khobai]

If they want this game to do well on Steam they need to redo the skill system.

Warframe had a VERY similar problem earlier in its development where the skill system was absolutely atrocious. So they redid it to the current mod system which still has his flaws but in general was a great improvement.

[Herr Vorragend]

increase CBill and XP income. That reduces the pain

[Kushko]

Herr Vorragend, on 23 June 2015 - 01:05 AM, said:

increase CBill and XP income. That reduces the pain

The point isnt that its too hard to do, but that its not fun. Making it slightly easier wont fix anything. Cure the disease not the symptoms.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

mailin, on 23 June 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

Uh. Sorry, but it is entirely possible to grind as many mechs as you want without paying a cent to PGI.

There is a difference tho between a reasonable amount of grinding and a simply ret*rded payouts and prices.

When you start from scratch it takes about 20-30m c-bills to build one IS mech into a competitive machine, ~40-50m c-bills to master one chassis. In a non-founder, non-hero mech without premium time it takes me an entire day of playing (~10 hours) to earn enough c-bills to buy one weapon module (2.5-3m c-bills, an equivalent of a ES-DHS combo or a set of weapons for your mech). We are talking about making c-bills in an already mastered top-notch clan mech etc. Yes, I am searching matches for 5-6 mins, and yes I play in higher Elo zones where opposition doesn't exactly let you "farm" them, but I also have the three years of experience and all the equipment I need, unlike a new player.

How much does a new player earn per match? 40k? 50k? You can easily calculate just how many matches will he need to master a single mech.

I had a match yesterday where I did ~1400 damage, practically single handedly (nobody else had more than 400) dispatched almost and entire enemy team and couldn't finish off the last opponent so we lost 11:12 ... earned 120k c-bills from that. Less than two medium lasers. Yes, not even two fkn IS medium lasers.

And please, don't even start about cadet bonus, which new players know nothing about, don't have the knowledge or means to use properly anyway.

You can say whatever you want, the economy we have is here for one and only one purpose, to frustrate people and to force them to spend real money. People who play casually (like, an hour a day or couple hours during the weekend) have no options whatsoever and are either forced to pay real money or play in absolute sh!t mechs all the time.

This game is bad, it is super bad for new players and it will fail horribly if it ever makes its way to Steam just the same way it failed during the "official release". To every person working on MWO, I thank you sincerely for ruining everything "MW" and "BT" stands for and I hope you'll never be able to find another job anywhere in the game industry.

Edit:grammar

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 23 June 2015 - 01:16 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

increasing CB + XP doesnt solve the PAIN, to buy 3 chasis, from which 1 or max 2 are good to ride. 3rd chassis in 90% not functional, no matter loadout.
Im selling 3rd always, keeping only 2 chassis (for change, when im bored with one combo).

[Pjwned]

mailin, on 23 June 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

To the OP, I don't have a problem with the current system. The system was established to keep the players playing the game. Want to get better efficiencies for your mech? Play more. Want to make the grind faster? Spend real money.

I'm not going to speak for everybody when I say this, but I imagine I speak for at least some people based on how these topics come up.

I'm not going to pay money to make a terrible shitfest grind a little bit less bad for a multitude of reasons, and not the least of which is that premium time has dogshit value for how much it costs and the MC cost of (hero) mechs is atrocious; the only reason I've had any premium time all this time is because of giveaways, which are nice for sure but they don't make me spend money either.

Because I'm not going to spend money to alleviate the shitfest grind, I need to deal with said shitfest grind and it makes me play considerably less than I might otherwise because it completely interferes with the part of the game I find most fun, which is messing around in the mech lab and finding new builds to play with.

Because I'm not going to play as much due to not spending money on grind boosters, I am absolutely not going to spend (more beyond the paltry amount of) money (that I've already spent and have no plans of adding onto), and in my case as a customer it's a lose-lose situation because PGI doesn't get money and I'm not satisfied enough with the game to play it outside of the occasional weekend event or short burst of playtime out of severe boredom with other games.

I'm sure this is not the case for everybody, but here you have at the very least 1 example (I'm sure there's more) of a customer who is disgusted with PGI's business practices and would likely spend more money if it changed; this doesn't even include the people who see this mech tree grinding shitfest and think "this is garbage" while quitting and not looking back.

Kushko, on 23 June 2015 - 01:12 AM, said:

The point isnt that its too hard to do, but that its not fun. Making it slightly easier wont fix anything. Cure the disease not the symptoms.

While I do agree for sure, if c-bills & XP were simply increased enough then it wouldn't really be nearly as much of an issue. In a very hypothetical situation where earnings of both were increased by some huge amount like x10, I still wouldn't like the underlying system very much but it would require so little grinding that I wouldn't even care.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 June 2015 - 03:59 AM.