102 replies to this topic

[Kushko]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 June 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

While you do make a point that a new player earns less and with the buy 3 mechanic they are either left with a choice of a very long mindless grind to master that 1 mech with no actual tangible reward in return (like a fun new chassis) or ignore the buy 3 mechanic and go for fun progression and have an even larger disadvantage in the game vs veteran players. Either way its a lose lose situation.

Having said that, i was hoping we could avoid toxic posts and keep the discussion and feedback as positive and constructive as possible.

[Joseph Mallan]

mailin, on 23 June 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

Uh. Sorry, but it is entirely possible to grind as many mechs as you want without paying a cent to PGI. PKNecron, you can buy the vast majority of mechs with the c-bills that you earn from each drop. If you are seriously spending real money for mechs that is your decision. I have very few mechs that I have spent real money on.

Yes there is a grind to MWO. It can be lessened by spending real money at the players' discretion. If you feel like you are being nickel and dimed to death then stop paying real money: it's as simple as that.

To the OP, I don't have a problem with the current system. The system was established to keep the players playing the game. Want to get better efficiencies for your mech? Play more. Want to make the grind faster? Spend real money.

Yes but there is no reason for me to get Elite in a Atlas-K to master the D-DC. Not to mention as a Lyran the idea that I have to drive a Kurita built Mech is disloyal.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2015 - 01:23 AM, said:

Yes but there is no reason for me to get Elite in a Atlas-K to master the D-DC. Not to mention as a Lyran the idea that I have to drive a Kurita built Mech is disloyal.

Eliting an Atlas-K. I've been there. The very definition of painful

[lshtaria]

The only problem I have with the current system is the lack of mechbays by default. Sure you can win a few more in Community Borefare but it really doesn't help free players who want to progress several mechs that much really. Mastering mechs is an essential part of this game and sadly it's the one major thing that's paywalled.

I do kind of support the 3 mech mastery system though because it at least has some kind of progression within this crappy arena game we have. The only issue is that it almost completely blocks out f2p players because of the mechbay issue.

Relaxing the 3 mech rule makes things a bit too quick and easy. I even think the XP > GXP conversion is fair because it is a money generator. Pay to win quicker is fine and I admit I've bought MC just to convert XP to master up mechs. At the end of the day you still have to balance things with an income that PGI can generate.

Perhaps the answer is to provide some more mech bays through regular competitions/events (which you're doing really good at PGI, don't listen to the haters).

Maybe mech mastery can be simplified on a per chassis basis instead of needing 3 mechs, but with higher XP requirements.

It's definitely an area that could use a bit of work. I have enough spare mech bays so that I never have to worry about it yet I understand the pain of those who don't.

[Ace Selin]

Khobai, on 23 June 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

I suggested this a while back.

Let people master a mech without owning 3 variants.

But each variant beyond the first that you master would give you a +5% cbill bonus.

So if you have three mastered Atlases, each one would get +10% cbill. Because youd have two Atlases beyond the first.



But IMO a large part of the problem is that the current "skill" system simply isnt fun. Im even hesitant to call what we have now a skill system.

I dont think I would mind having to own 3 mechs to master a mech if the skill system was a lot better. But right now its just a horrendously boring grind wall.

If we had a more modular skill system that let us swap out different skills and customize the role of the mech I think grinding would be A LOT more tolerable. Grinding would feel less like grinding because youd be able to experiment with different skill combinations to find what works.

Getting rid of the grind progression unlock tree in favor of an actual skill tree that requires players to make intelligent choices about what skills to take would be a MASSIVE improvement to the game.

I like what is suggested here, bravo

[CDLord HHGD]

The mastery packs are a good idea then if your friend doesn't have the time or patience needed to grind for cbills. The HBK pack is ~5500 MC which isn't bad, there are heroes out there that cost that much and more on their own. Plus it helps support the game so we can keep playing.

[LordBraxton]

MWO is more of a whalefunded community project than a traditional F2P title. This game's (lack of a) progression system, and ridiculous grind, compounded by horrific prices and low production values, will make it a non-starter on steam. Sure MWO has great core gameplay elements, but nobody will get to experience that because they'll all be turned off by bad graphics, UI without tooltips (lololol) and $120 mech packs.

[GeistHrafn]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

<snip>...and ridiculous grind...<snip>

Err what? The grind in MWO is a joke compared to most other F2P games...

[Destro1000]

I agree with the idea to allow new players to master their first mech, it seems like a simple enough concession that would at least give them a reason to feel like they are on equal competitive ground with their mastered chassis while they learn and grind away to obtain other mechs.

Edited by Destro1000, 23 June 2015 - 04:54 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Rhazien, on 23 June 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

Err what? The grind in MWO is a joke compared to most other F2P games...

I can master a tank in Warthunder in one evening. You can master all of the tier 1 tanks in a single day. It would take me weeks to grind out, equip, and master a single IS heavy.

[Kushko]

cdlord, on 23 June 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

The mastery packs are a good idea then if your friend doesn't have the time or patience needed to grind for cbills. The HBK pack is ~5500 MC which isn't bad, there are heroes out there that cost that much and more on their own. Plus it helps support the game so we can keep playing.

F2P done right: I enjoy this game and have fun. I will spend money to get more stuff faster and/or get cosmetics.

F2P done wrong: I just started this game and while i initially had fun its clear that my arm is twisted to spend money if i want to continue having fun. If/when i spend money on a game i will feel like i was taken advantage of and will feel bad about myself and the game.

The buy 3 to master 1 mechanic and spending money to circumvent it definitely falls in the category of the done wrong. You do not spend money or time on getting something new and exciting, you spend it to get more of the same to make what you already have viable and that is a bad mechanic. Especially since several mech chassis dont even have 2 unique and/or viable variants let alone 3.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 05:57 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

well, IF they reduce the grind from 3 chassis in to 1, it will completely destroy their packages money grab x3 politics.....

[Mystere]

Building a game to make life easy for the new or 100% free player will just spell doom for the game if that is all you are asking for. So better also suggest money-making ideas that will guarantee more income for PGI. Not doing so will just kill the game even faster. PGI employees all have mouths to feed.

That is the hard truth.

Edited by Mystere, 23 June 2015 - 07:52 AM.

[El Bandito]

Yeah 3 for 1 is idiotic, and is forcing down variants that we do not want to pilot. If I must grind to elite/master skill tree then so be it--but at least let me grind it in my favorite variant!

[Tombstoner]

I agree completely. it is soul sucking being forced to grind out mastery on crappy variant you don't want to play.

I would rather have xp increased 3x and lift the restriction. Let me play what i want to play.
does this mean i will spend less on mechs and equipment.... yes it does.

whats better for the game... players having fun or enduring not just an xp grind but a cb grind on top of it.

[Tombstoner]

Mystere, on 23 June 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Building a game to make life easy for the new or 100% free player will just spell doom for the game if that is all you are asking for. So better also suggest money-making ideas that will guarantee more income for PGI. Not doing so will just kill the game even faster. PGI employees all have mouths to feed.

That is the hard truth.

All very true, but the chances a person will spend money should increase with play time/enjoyment/satisfaction. player retention increases the changes for income. storage being one of the easiest to implement. Why force me to get 2 extra mech bays for mechs and equipment i don't want to play.

Part of the F2P model is having people to shoot. Even if they pay nothing they are still providing value to the game.

[Revis Volek]

Titannium, on 23 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

increasing CB + XP doesnt solve the PAIN, to buy 3 chasis, from which 1 or max 2 are good to ride. 3rd chassis in 90% not functional, no matter loadout.
Im selling 3rd always, keeping only 2 chassis (for change, when im bored with one combo).

That sounds like more of a problem with you and not the mechs....

I can make all of my mechs viable...even had some 2 kill games last night in a Spider with 1er large and 4 mg's which is the worst of the bunch.

Anecdotal evidence wont support this case, you need to bring something worthwhile to the table if you are gonna comment on things like this.

But to the OP,

This is the paywall and without it PGI would have went under already. They make money on mech packs...thats it. I dont see enough people buying MC or anything else to make this game lucrative, If it wasnt for this system im pretty sure this game WOULD have flopped already because most of us would have left with literally NOTHING to do....not even new mechs to master.

But i am also not against making the skill tree real and getting rid of the stupid place holders and things like that.

In a perfect world the light skill tree would have the option to go pure scout with skills like speed tweak, target range increase, targeting time decrese, NARC and TAG boosts (range, Target time, length) or go Brawly with a Twist Speed boost, Speed Tweak, maybe some laser cooldowns (achievable through the skill tree) and then some over lap skills of Twist X, Cool Run, yada yada...

But being able to make the mech into a more role oriented fighter via the skill tree would be amazing! and would give each mech a identity once you mastered them.

Tombstoner, on 23 June 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

I agree completely. it is soul sucking being forced to grind out mastery on crappy variant you don't want to play.

I would rather have xp increased 3x and lift the restriction. Let me play what i want to play.
does this mean i will spend less on mechs and equipment.... yes it does.

whats better for the game... players having fun or enduring not just an xp grind but a cb grind on top of it.

Actually you spending LESS money is bad for the game....if they dont make money the servers shut down. This is Free to play only because others pay your way. If you spend less on mechs and equipment you will spend less on MC. less on mech packs, less time in game and less money to cut down the grind and PGI will end up being the losers while we win but then they close the servers.

So what did ya get?

It pretty simple, i know everyone wants stuff for free but servers, internet, pass through cost and all the other cost to run a business is what you are paying for and if you stop the game stops....

So be careful what you wish for....

Edited by DarthRevis, 23 June 2015 - 08:11 AM.

[Wronka]

I like this thread and hope it gets some attention. I understand a game that is free needs to make money by selling in game things, but I think they went a little over the top to make things overly difficult to do. And though I am not complaining about that, it does bug me that this severely drives away new players. I have tried to get many of my friends to play, and all run into the same problem. They try for a couple battles and get completely destroyed, and just quit. I try to tell them to stick it out but none want to get destroyed for a few weeks before they can play. You might say they just suck, but really you simply do not get enough as a brand new player to be able to play and actually have a positive outcome in a match and have fun. I think this problem of new players quitting is driven off a few main issues:

- Matchmaker. A brand new player that is still trying to understand the 2 cross hairs and how to fire his 5th weapon group on his trial mech, will get matched up against someone like me who has played for years, and I will just completely roll that player 10/10 times, destroying his experience in this game (I am not even that good). I know there is ELO to help balance this but since there aren't that many players in this game to begin with, they can and will get matched up vs pros to keep wait times lower. This is probably the toughest point to fix, but one that can be helped if we grow the new player base. Also a 1 player campaign of any kind could help here too.

- Cbil earnings. A new player does get cadet bonus, but lets be realistic, it isn't squat. I think you get almost 8M cbils from cadet bonus, but that isn't even enough to buy and outfit a single variant. You could combo it with premium time, but that costs real money and will only drive away new players if they have to pay from day 1. A new player needs a way to get more cbils faster so they can try a couple different mechs and not just 1, that or they should get a mech of each weight class "on the house" so they can experience more of the game early on in their very own mech they can customize.

- Trial mechs. They are simply flat out bad. I'll be honest I have not looked at trial mechs in a long time, but when I first started there was not a single well outfitted trial mech, further making it difficult to play as a new player. We need better trial mechs with better loadouts for new players so they can at least have the tools to experience the game the way veterans get to, at least for a short time.

- The last point ties back into this discussion, Skills - Exp as a new player can be insanely hard to get. Even now as an experienced player I can get anywhere from 200 exp in a match (a very bad loss) to over 6000 exp with premium time, first win of the day bonus, and a very good game. However as a new player with a crappy mech, tough match ups every game, no premium time, and just general steep learning curve of the game, you are likely not making anything over 500 exp a match, and that can be a very long grind just to even basic a mech.

These things just need to be looked at for new players only and not forever changes so that a player isn't handed everything. However I do think premium time should be increased so that players that do stick to the game that want more have a way to quickly get more all the while PGI can make money off them. If they can make premium time something about $10-15 a month (about what it costs now), with solid boosts (more than the 50% they have now), I would always be on premium time as im sure would most. Players get more things faster, PGI gets monthly income, win/win? Maybe.

Edited by Wronka, 23 June 2015 - 08:17 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Tombstoner, on 23 June 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

All very true, but the chances a person will spend money should increase with play time/enjoyment/satisfaction. player retention increases the changes for income. storage being one of the easiest to implement. Why force me to get 2 extra mech bays for mechs and equipment i don't want to play.

Part of the F2P model is having people to shoot. Even if they pay nothing they are still providing value to the game.

By the numbers, when players are in game the chances of them making a MICRO TRANSACTION ($10 or less) goes up A LOT! But that really isn't what PGI makes its money on, we dont have some huge player base all making $5 or $10 dollar purchases a day. Mech packs are their bread and butter and like others have said without them the game is dead.

PGI needs players doing both, micro transactions are great but fun game play alone does not always make a whale....

[Piddles]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 June 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

This game is bad, it is super bad for new players and it will fail horribly if it ever makes its way to Steam just the same way it failed during the "official release". To every person working on MWO, I thank you sincerely for ruining everything "MW" and "BT" stands for and I hope you'll never be able to find another job anywhere in the game industry.

Yet you've made over 2500 posts and played for three years, i'm guessing you still play now (if not get off these forums and get a life!). The combination of those things just made me not take your complaints seriously.