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Need For Faster Balance Changes.


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#1 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:12 AM

UPDATE.

1. Looks like more changes coming soon in relation to this question. https://twitter.com/...182532641644544

2. Town Hall meeting Thursday. Makes sure to get your balance related questions in. http://mwomercs.com/...e-25th-6pm-pdt/


>>>>> This is not a thread about major changes to how the game works like sized hard points etc. You are welcome to start a thread about major changes the game but this is not it.<<<<<<<

To those unclear on this I am wanting them to do a quirk pass on some of the worst mechs each month.

Looking at the game we have some mechs that are viable (More than before so thats good.) Then a lot at that need help to be viable again. But patch after patch we have little or no movement with quirks. The status quo is not OK we need to have work done on mechs every patch to keep working on balance.

If looking at it in tiers like Metamechs.com lists them lets pick some mechs in tiers 3-5 every patch and give them a little love. Does not have to be huge changes but something so its not just static. There are lots of mechs that need help so might at well start now.

Answers to questions that will come up in the thread......

1. Will this make all mechs to powerful. -- Answer-> The boat has already sailed on that. If you replace Hellbringer some one is playng with a Quickdraw IV-Four you have not lowered TTK you have just got the Quickdraw IV-Four some playing time. There is a core now of viable mechs. What we need to do is add to it.

2. We should do big fixes that change the entire game and will take months to do. -- Answer-> The odds are they will not do these huge changes to the game. So it helps us to be practical about what gets done.

3. Random low tier mech is fine because I have good games in it some times. -- Answer-> That is not proof of it being fine. All mechs can have good games some times. All it is proof of is you had a few good games.

Lists from metamechs that give a good idea of where to start on mechs.

IS - http://metamechs.com...-lists/is-list/

Clan - http://metamechs.com...ists/clan-list/

Posted Image

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 23 June 2015 - 01:00 PM.


#2 cSand

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:15 AM

What if I have good matches most of the time in my random low-tier chassis, and sometimes have bad macthes?

:P

#3 El Bandito

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:16 AM

PGI can test out some weapon balance change immediately, such as increasing LBX pellet damage or removing Machine Gun CoF. Takes only few minutes to make the change in the XML sheet--and they can just test it in their PTR if they are afraid of live servers abusing the newly balanced weapons. Yet they don't. They make me sad.

Still, PGI is at least doing balancing more frequently than Blizzard. Been waiting for ages for them to do the next balance patch on Hearthstone. -_-

Edited by El Bandito, 22 June 2015 - 09:16 AM.


#4 Ultimax

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:17 AM

The reality is that it's not good for business.


It's better to buff select things at select times, and have other things not be as good than it is to try and sell "everything good" to everyone - because players will shift and buy those new good things if they don't already have them.


Sometimes things will also get buffed in order to sell a specific content, like making viable drop decks for CW.


I'm not advocating this, I'm just telling it like it is.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 June 2015 - 09:17 AM.


#5 TheCharlatan

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:23 AM

There is a problem here: you say that

View PostXX Sulla XX, on 22 June 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:


3. Random low tier mech is fine because I have good games in it some times. -- Answer-> That is not proof of it being fine. All mechs can have good games some times. All it is proof of is you had a few good games.




Which means that "your opinion dosen't count."
But you say that we have to follow Gman's opinion on what is good and what is not.
Why his opinion and not someone else's?

This is the main problem with balance from the player side: it's based on opinions.

The only guys with the stats are the ones at PGI. They look at the numbers and, hopefully, know what to do to change them in the way they think is good to the game.

If we were to go in "quirk overload" as you ask, we would have meta-shifts way too fast, and people would get pretty angry with the constant "buy the FOTM mech".

Edited by TheCharlatan, 22 June 2015 - 09:30 AM.


#6 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:28 AM

Just throwing this out there, but tweaking 'Mech quirks takes longer than changing the base stats of the weapon itself. If we're going to be quirking Medium lasers out to a nominal range of 311 meters on the majority of 'Mechs, for example, we'd be better off just giving them a base range of 315 meters and calling it a deal. Similar deal with heat; if you are going to be knocking off a nominal 12.5% from energy weapons, just reduce the heat values 12.5% across the board.

#7 Mcgral18

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:29 AM

  • Crit chance
  • Crit damage multiplier
  • Missile spread
  • Cooldown
  • Burn Time
  • Heat
  • Range
  • Movement Archetype (override, like Mr Gargles from Huge to Large, or KCrab from Large to Huge)
  • Quirks
These changes, to the best of my knowledge, are just edits to a .XML
I think they've automated burn durations and audio (which wasn't always the case, so I could be wrong).


Bi Weekly with the patches, or at least once a month, a change or two would be appreciated. The change itself takes no time at all.
I'll assume testing takes more time. For those who want to give the .XML a change, here's a sample, from the Clam Machine Gun.

<Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Ballistic,MachineGun,ClanMachineGun," name="ClanMachineGun" id="1209">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanMachineGun.dds" descTag="@ClanMachineGun_desc" nameTag="@ClanMachineGun"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="0.25" maxRange="240.0" longRange="120.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="1" ammoType="ClanMachineGunAmmo" cooldown="0.0" heat="0.0" impulse="0.001" heatdamage="0" damage="0.08" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Ballistic" slots="1" Health="10" spread="1.5" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.06,0.03,0.01" critDamMult="9.0" rof="10.0"/>


#8 Sjorpha

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 09:39 AM

View PostTheCharlatan, on 22 June 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

There is a problem here: you say that


Which means that "your opinion dosen't count."
But you say that we have to follow Gman's opinion on what is good and what is not.
Why his opinion and not someone else's?

This is the main problem with balance from the player side: it's based on opinions.


Gmans tier lists are not just his opinions though, it is his way of reporting the metagame trends from the competitive scene and high elo play. He puts a lot of work into getting this as unbiased as he can and should be respected for that work IMO, as I see it there is a huge difference between what he does and some random dude posting screenshots of his favourite mech performing.

I'd like some more frequent, and smaller, balance tweaks as well, so I agree with the OP.

#9 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:07 AM

View PostcSand, on 22 June 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

What if I have good matches most of the time in my random low-tier chassis, and sometimes have bad macthes?

:P
You are playing against bad pilots most of the time?

View PostEl Bandito, on 22 June 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

PGI can test out some weapon balance change immediately, such as increasing LBX pellet damage or removing Machine Gun CoF. Takes only few minutes to make the change in the XML sheet--and they can just test it in their PTR if they are afraid of live servers abusing the newly balanced weapons. Yet they don't. They make me sad.

Still, PGI is at least doing balancing more frequently than Blizzard. Been waiting for ages for them to do the next balance patch on Hearthstone. -_-
Exactly balance changes are easy to do for PGI. There is no reason to leave mechs that need help non viable.

View PostUltimatum X, on 22 June 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

The reality is that it's not good for business.


It's better to buff select things at select times, and have other things not be as good than it is to try and sell "everything good" to everyone - because players will shift and buy those new good things if they don't already have them.


Sometimes things will also get buffed in order to sell a specific content, like making viable drop decks for CW.


I'm not advocating this, I'm just telling it like it is.
I think it is good business to have better balance. You keep selling more things like Victor Dragon Slayers. You have more people happy and playing the game and buying mech packs etc. Balance is good business.

View PostTheCharlatan, on 22 June 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

There is a problem here: you say that


Which means that "your opinion dosen't count."
But you say that we have to follow Gman's opinion on what is good and what is not.
Why his opinion and not someone else's?

This is the main problem with balance from the player side: it's based on opinions.

The only guys with the stats are the ones at PGI. They look at the numbers and, hopefully, know what to do to change them in the way they think is good to the game.

If we were to go in "quirk overload" as you ask, we would have meta-shifts way too fast, and people would get pretty angry with the constant "buy the FOTM mech".
No let me put it this way. Look at the Highlander. The majority of people (not just Gman) think it needs help. Hardly any one plays it. Most of the time when it is played it does not do well on average. So when one person comes in the thread and says I have great games in my Highlander. It does not prove its good it only proves that one person had a good game or two. Thats all I ment :)

View PostYeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Just throwing this out there, but tweaking 'Mech quirks takes longer than changing the base stats of the weapon itself. If we're going to be quirking Medium lasers out to a nominal range of 311 meters on the majority of 'Mechs, for example, we'd be better off just giving them a base range of 315 meters and calling it a deal. Similar deal with heat; if you are going to be knocking off a nominal 12.5% from energy weapons, just reduce the heat values 12.5% across the board.
Could they make changes to IS weapons yes. Will they probably not. So in keeping with how they are doing things I am asking for changes in that system.

View PostMcgral18, on 22 June 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

  • Crit chance
  • Crit damage multiplier
  • Missile spread
  • Cooldown
  • Burn Time
  • Heat
  • Range
  • Movement Archetype (override, like Mr Gargles from Huge to Large, or KCrab from Large to Huge)
  • Quirks
These changes, to the best of my knowledge, are just edits to a .XML

I think they've automated burn durations and audio (which wasn't always the case, so I could be wrong).


Bi Weekly with the patches, or at least once a month, a change or two would be appreciated. The change itself takes no time at all.
I'll assume testing takes more time. For those who want to give the .XML a change, here's a sample, from the Clam Machine Gun.

<Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Ballistic,MachineGun,ClanMachineGun," name="ClanMachineGun" id="1209">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanMachineGun.dds" descTag="@ClanMachineGun_desc" nameTag="@ClanMachineGun"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="0.25" maxRange="240.0" longRange="120.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="1" ammoType="ClanMachineGunAmmo" cooldown="0.0" heat="0.0" impulse="0.001" heatdamage="0" damage="0.08" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Ballistic" slots="1" Health="10" spread="1.5" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.06,0.03,0.01" critDamMult="9.0" rof="10.0"/>

Exactly they have talked about how its not hard to change these basic things now. Its just a matter of them choosing not to do balance updates.

View PostSjorpha, on 22 June 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:


Gmans tier lists are not just his opinions though, it is his way of reporting the metagame trends from the competitive scene and high elo play. He puts a lot of work into getting this as unbiased as he can and should be respected for that work IMO, as I see it there is a huge difference between what he does and some random dude posting screenshots of his favourite mech performing.

I'd like some more frequent, and smaller, balance tweaks as well, so I agree with the OP.
Exactly he is not perfect but does have a good idea. At higher Elo the problems with mechs are more clear. Honestly when playing low El players you can have great games in any mech you take.

#10 Gyrok

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:20 AM

Sulla, you keep going on these crusades, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but:

1.) Most people realize you do not know what you are talking about, and led crusades before for nerfs you now seek to undo.

2.) Most of the chassis you wish were to be good again will never be so because of crusades like this that continually request stuff to get nerfed and then the community says "F*&^ THAT...BAD IDEA...DO WE GET A MULLIGAN?"

3.) The last point I will make here is this: You are not the developer, you are not even in the software industry, and yet you have all these ideas to fix the game. None of them, honestly, are any good...and yet you spam them on MWO and Reddit. Please, STAHP!

Do you know what they call idea men who have no means to execute? Impotent creative execs...

Think about that for a while.

#11 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:34 AM

View PostXX Sulla XX, on 22 June 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Could they make changes to IS weapons yes. Will they probably not. So in keeping with how they are doing things I am asking for changes in that system.



You are asking for faster quirk iterations. A quirk iteration is predominantly a change to the weapons, just on a chassis-variant level instead of global. It takes more time to figure out how each particular chassis-variant is weak and what to do to fix it than it does to know which weapons are under-performing and change those. The results of PGI's observations so far have already shown them that Inner Sphere energy weapons are generally too hot, too short-ranged, and too under-powered for their burns, and the fact that most IS 'mechs feature quirks to address those shortcomings is the proof. That certain Clan 'Mechs have negative quirks to bring them more in-line with IS capabilities is even further proof. This is just pointing out the most obvious of trends, too.

Better, still, it gets more complicated. Laser duration reductions, cool-down reductions, and agility increases are all indirect buffs to durability. Shorter duration means you return to cover faster and save armor. Shorter cool-down means you can kill the target faster and save armor. Being able to turn faster and further means you save armor. Having longer effective range is also an indirect buff to durability because it conditionally reduces the effectiveness of return fire as long as enemy gear continues to be both shorter ranged and less damaging.

Bottom line: fixing the weapons globally and letting quirks focus on armor/structure/agility is a more efficient approach in terms of man-hours than refiguring the entire set of weapons for every variant of every chassis.

#12 DaZur

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:38 AM

View PostGyrok, on 22 June 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Do you know what they call idea men who have no means to execute? Impotent creative execs...

I know of few people tho fit that definition... :P

#13 FupDup

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:53 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 22 June 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

  • Crit chance
  • Crit damage multiplier
  • Missile spread
  • Cooldown
  • Burn Time
  • Heat
  • Range
  • Movement Archetype (override, like Mr Gargles from Huge to Large, or KCrab from Large to Huge)
  • Quirks
These changes, to the best of my knowledge, are just edits to a .XML

Agility is also XML-friendly.

#14 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:55 AM

View PostGyrok, on 22 June 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Sulla, you keep going on these crusades, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but:

1.) Most people realize you do not know what you are talking about, and led crusades before for nerfs you now seek to undo.

2.) Most of the chassis you wish were to be good again will never be so because of crusades like this that continually request stuff to get nerfed and then the community says "F*&^ THAT...BAD IDEA...DO WE GET A MULLIGAN?"

3.) The last point I will make here is this: You are not the developer, you are not even in the software industry, and yet you have all these ideas to fix the game. None of them, honestly, are any good...and yet you spam them on MWO and Reddit. Please, STAHP!

Do you know what they call idea men who have no means to execute? Impotent creative execs...

Think about that for a while.


1. I did call for a nerf to the TW and SC and they worked. Lowering the fire power and keeping the agility has worked out well. They are still used in both group play and in comp play but are not highly OP like they were before.

2. You must have never read what I said about the Victor pop tarting problem when it was happening. I said correctly it was a problem with PPCs and being able to be combined with other front loaded damage ACs. You could have fixed it and never nerfed the Victors. I was right on this one also.

3. My record of the changes I have wanted when done have been at least as good as PGIs.

4. As for being impotent its just not true. PGI gets a feel for the communities views on things from Reddit, Twitter and these forums etc. Bringing problems and suggested solutions to the attention of PGI does get changes. When the solutions are rational and realistically something they might do it helps even more. Beyond that when you know they are thinking about a change for example jump jets you can keep it in front of them as being important.

Asking people to stop posting because you do not agree is just silly petty. A huge amount of things get posted that re nonsense or terrible ideas. Who cares. Let people put things out there and see what sticks.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:



You are asking for faster quirk iterations. A quirk iteration is predominantly a change to the weapons, just on a chassis-variant level instead of global. It takes more time to figure out how each particular chassis-variant is weak and what to do to fix it than it does to know which weapons are under-performing and change those. The results of PGI's observations so far have already shown them that Inner Sphere energy weapons are generally too hot, too short-ranged, and too under-powered for their burns, and the fact that most IS 'mechs feature quirks to address those shortcomings is the proof. That certain Clan 'Mechs have negative quirks to bring them more in-line with IS capabilities is even further proof. This is just pointing out the most obvious of trends, too.

Better, still, it gets more complicated. Laser duration reductions, cool-down reductions, and agility increases are all indirect buffs to durability. Shorter duration means you return to cover faster and save armor. Shorter cool-down means you can kill the target faster and save armor. Being able to turn faster and further means you save armor. Having longer effective range is also an indirect buff to durability because it conditionally reduces the effectiveness of return fire as long as enemy gear continues to be both shorter ranged and less damaging.

Bottom line: fixing the weapons globally and letting quirks focus on armor/structure/agility is a more efficient approach in terms of man-hours than refiguring the entire set of weapons for every variant of every chassis.
Yes I understand they are doing pretty much the same thing. And yes it would be faster to change things on a global level. But they have shown no inclination to buff IS mechs across the board. If you want to start a thread suggesting they do then my all means do so. I will probably even support it.

#15 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:23 AM

I did start a thread whose gist was promoting global changes for equipment instead of variant changes once you got past the fluff. Apart for the heat system, which was specifically implicated as wishful thinking, the rest is hardly radical. Even seemingly new weapons are pretty much just functional duplications of existing weapons with some of their stats changed. A MagShot, as the most radical-looking thing in there, is just a Gauss with its XML values for weight, size, damage, cool-down, and range altered. Don't even need new UI elements for this crap, just relabel the Gauss icon.

But still, it doesn't matter how PGI has done things up to this point. If you want faster changes, you have to lay the groundwork for faster changes to be doable. They haven't done that. There are more 'Mechs with too many working variables that need passes than you can do on a monthly basis, forget bi-weekly.

#16 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:32 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

I did start a thread whose gist was promoting global changes for equipment instead of variant changes once you got past the fluff. Apart for the heat system, which was specifically implicated as wishful thinking, the rest is hardly radical. Even seemingly new weapons are pretty much just functional duplications of existing weapons with some of their stats changed. A MagShot, as the most radical-looking thing in there, is just a Gauss with its XML values for weight, size, damage, cool-down, and range altered. Don't even need new UI elements for this crap, just relabel the Gauss icon.

But still, it doesn't matter how PGI has done things up to this point. If you want faster changes, you have to lay the groundwork for faster changes to be doable. They haven't done that. There are more 'Mechs with too many working variables that need passes than you can do on a monthly basis, forget bi-weekly.
See so you are got your idea out there in front of them. As I said I have no problem with global changes. But until they decide that is the way to go I would like to have faster small changes.

#17 Y E O N N E

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:38 AM

The effects wouldn't be observable if all you are doing is one or two 'Mechs every two weeks in small increments, is what I am ultimately trying to get at. And one or two 'Mechs is all you'd have time to do, since you have to refigure all of the weapons for all of the variants for each of your one or two chassis.

#18 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:45 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

The effects wouldn't be observable if all you are doing is one or two 'Mechs every two weeks in small increments, is what I am ultimately trying to get at. And one or two 'Mechs is all you'd have time to do, since you have to refigure all of the weapons for all of the variants for each of your one or two chassis.
I dont know I think they could manage 3-4 per patch. If they did 4 a patch here is how fast it would change.

All tier 5 IS mechs would have a pass in two months.
All tier 4 IS mechs would have a pass in about 6.5 months.

If they did quirks well that would mean in 6.5 months we would only have what would now be effectivly tier 3-1 mechs for IS. And in a short 3 months half of them would alrady be done.

If they would have been doing 4 mechs a patch this entire time the game would be much better balanced.

#19 cSand

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:50 AM

View PostXX Sulla XX, on 22 June 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

You are playing against bad pilots most of the time?




Well I see you a lot in matches so there ya go :P


........



So you know it as well as I do, that this is not the case

Edited by cSand, 22 June 2015 - 11:53 AM.


#20 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:51 AM

Not sure PGI has the coding capability, nor the desire, to edit an XML file every two weeks.





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