523 replies to this topic

[R Razor]

Mystere, on 27 June 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

The real problem is this, not the 12-man bogeyman:

No, that's not the real problem..........the real problem is that large groups (7+) on Team Speak will generally significantly out perform opponents that consist of a couple of 4 mans and a couple of 2 mans trying to use only VOIP and who have probably not ever dropped together or worked together before.............the real problem is that there are players out there and would stick around and play the game longer if cases like that didn't happen..........and the real problem is that too many people in these forums would rather see it continue like it is than to see it fixed because it might add 2 or 3 minutes to their search time...........or remove their puglandia farming cbill factory.............

[Mystere]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

No, that's not the real problem..........the real problem is that large groups (7+) on Team Speak will generally significantly out perform opponents that consist of a couple of 4 mans and a couple of 2 mans trying to use only VOIP and who have probably not ever dropped together or worked together before.............the real problem is that there are players out there and would stick around and play the game longer if cases like that didn't happen..........and the real problem is that too many people in these forums would rather see it continue like it is than to see it fixed because it might add 2 or 3 minutes to their search time...........or remove their puglandia farming cbill factory.............

As Joe M would say, the better team should win in a team-oriented game. Many of us have no problem with that at all.

And before you start accusing me of not wanting to "remove their puglandia farming cbill factory", let it be known that I already do that in the solo queue all by my lonesome self, thank you very much.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Wintersdark, on 27 June 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Honestly, I love Mud. I mean, the guy provides an endless amount of forum entertainment, year after year, without fail. Who else can harp on endlessly about issues that only he believes are really problems, while insisting that he's representing The Silent Majority, despite endless examples that he's full of ****. And then, he does it with such classic debating skills as "I know, but I'm not going to tell you".

But mostly, it's the pure determination in the face of everyone disagreeing with him, not just now and then but every single day.

Trick is to create a persona that's on the edge and stick with it. Being oneself is boring as I don't enjoy being or listening to a braggart or some dillhole who wants to show me the contents of their wallet or plaques on a wall.

I have generated a few characters in my day just for the sake of breaking the boredom most people create in social situations.

Let's put it this way, I grew up down the street from Abbie Hoffmans Parents house. One day when I was little and sat on the stoop with him while he was on the lam from the feds. Dude was genius and told us many stories. I just follow his lead. Maybe someday I will levitate the pentagon.

I tell you this because time is short and I don't see any of this going past the summer. Clampdown is coming and games on the internet won't be a priority for most. Just look at Greece now and what the markets in China are heading into after yesterday. Things in the economy getting real with 93 million out of work. Maybe this Frenchman said it best as it applies to all western nations now
“In France, only half the population works,” concluded our friend.
“The other half tries to stop them.”


Anyways some things are true, I am a pilot and sailor and a combat wounded vet. All the other crap, the solo/ts and synch drops franky I could care less about but saw an opening to create a ruckus. It was fun buttering some muffins though and many of you won't forget Mud any time soon.

So next time you walk through the woods after a rain and you slip a little have a laugh. That's nature and there is a little madness in there. I try to bring some wherever I go.

Love ya, man.

I know many will still hate but they hate an apparition so its all worth it.

[TWIAFU]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

No, that's not the real problem..........the real problem is that large groups (7+) on Team Speak will generally significantly out perform opponents that consist of a couple of 4 mans and a couple of 2 mans trying to use only VOIP and who have probably not ever dropped together or worked together before.............the real problem is that there are players out there and would stick around and play the game longer if cases like that didn't happen..........and the real problem is that too many people in these forums would rather see it continue like it is than to see it fixed because it might add 2 or 3 minutes to their search time...........or remove their puglandia farming cbill factory.............

So, your saying Teamwork is the new boogeyman. People used to playing together do better then those that do not or have not?

Never would have thought....

Remember that 1% of groups are the evil 12man unit, so they cannot be farming pug land because they hardly exist!

Your getting farmed by Skirmish teams, a 12 man group formed by several small groups. There might even be a solo player in there farming you!

You need to stop smaller groups from forming a large group and allowing solo to join them to farm you.

Your boogeyman has been proven to not exist.

[Mystere]

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 June 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

Trick is to create a persona that's on the edge and stick with it. Being oneself is boring as I don't enjoy being or listening to a braggart or some dillhole who wants to show me the contents of their wallet or plaques on a wall.

I have generated a few characters in my day just for the sake of breaking the boredom most people create in social situations.

Let's put it this way, I grew up down the street from Abbie Hoffmans Parents house. One day when I was little and sat on the stoop with him while he was on the lam from the feds. Dude was genius and told us many stories. I just follow his lead. Maybe someday I will levitate the pentagon.

I tell you this because time is short and I don't see any of this going past the summer. Clampdown is coming and games on the internet won't be a priority for most. Just look at Greece now and what the markets in China are heading into after yesterday. Things in the economy getting real with 93 million out of work. Maybe this Frenchman said it best as it applies to all western nations now
“In France, only half the population works,” concluded our friend.
“The other half tries to stop them.”


Anyways some things are true, I am a pilot and sailor and a combat wounded vet. All the other crap, the solo/ts and synch drops franky I could care less about but saw an opening to create a ruckus. It was fun buttering some muffins though and many of you won't forget Mud any time soon.

So next time you walk through the woods after a rain and you slip a little have a laugh. That's nature and there is a little madness in there. I try to bring some wherever I go.

Love ya, man.

I know many will still hate but they hate an apparition so its all worth it.

Yep, he was off his meds for a long time ... again.

Edited by Mystere, 27 June 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[R Razor]

Mystere, on 27 June 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

As Joe M would say, the better team should win in a team-oriented game. Many of us have no problem with that at all.

And before you start accusing me of not wanting to "remove their puglandia farming cbill factory", let it be known that I already do that in the solo queue all by my lonesome self, thank you very much.

So then it wasn't some sort of guilt that compelled you to add that to your post then?

The problem with your (and Joe's) assertion that the better team should win is that it ruins the new player experience and keeps the game from growing as long as it's allowing teams to be unbalanced in some way or another (such as coordinated teams that play together regularly in 7+ player groups vs people that randomly get tossed together).

There's a reason you don't see the Dallas Cowboys playing the local community college team, you don't see FC Munchen playing a local grammar school soccer team etc............just because each Football team can put 11 players on the field at the same time does not mean they are actually equal in terms of ability on that field...........the Cowboys practice and play together, often for several years at a time, the local college team may practice and play together for a year or two at most, and never at the level of commitment you see from the pro.................

The match maker needs to balance based on group size to help mitigate the above imbalances.

[R Razor]

TWIAFU, on 27 June 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

So, your saying Teamwork is the new boogeyman. People used to playing together do better then those that do not or have not?

Never would have thought....

Remember that 1% of groups are the evil 12man unit, so they cannot be farming pug land because they hardly exist!

Your getting farmed by Skirmish teams, a 12 man group formed by several small groups. There might even be a solo player in there farming you!

You need to stop smaller groups from forming a large group and allowing solo to join them to farm you.

Your boogeyman has been proven to not exist.

Is English not your native language? I only ask because it is apparent that you are missing the point of everything I typed.

It isn't about me, I'm well above positive in kills and wins..........it's about the New Players coming into the game. It's about not allowing people like you to seal club them with your large groups that practice together while they try and group up with random strangers they've rarely, if ever, played with before.

Nobody is advocating taking your ability to play in a large group away from you, the only thing that would really affect you would be your wait times while the MM found another group of the same size for you to play against............now surely you aren't afraid of that are you? I mean really, is your whole point just that you don't WANT to be forced to play against a team that shares the same advantages you have???

[Lazor Sharp]

MUD,

I hear ya bro...

For me, the last 30 years has been like watching a slow motion train wreck on the world stage. And Greece may be the domino that falls, that set's up the final crash......

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 27 June 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Mystere]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

So then it wasn't some sort of guilt that compelled you to add that to your post then?

Guilt? What is that word you speak of?

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

The problem with your (and Joe's) assertion that the better team should win is that it ruins the new player experience and keeps the game from growing as long as it's allowing teams to be unbalanced in some way or another (such as coordinated teams that play together regularly in 7+ player groups vs people that randomly get tossed together).

There's a reason you don't see the Dallas Cowboys playing the local community college team, you don't see FC Munchen playing a local grammar school soccer team etc............just because each Football team can put 11 players on the field at the same time does not mean they are actually equal in terms of ability on that field...........the Cowboys practice and play together, often for several years at a time, the local college team may practice and play together for a year or two at most, and never at the level of commitment you see from the pro.................

The match maker needs to balance based on group size to help mitigate the above imbalances.

You talking about the Dallas Cowboys seems to imply that MWO is a professional sport with professional players. I'm sorry but I think that is a bogus analogy. Better find another one.

There must be a better solution other than marginalizing a group of people for the benefit of another one, even if the latter were larger.

Edited by Mystere, 27 June 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[R Razor]

No, the analogy fits just fine............a group that plays together, practices together and communicates well is always going to have an advantage over a mixed group that doesn't do those things............and mixed groups of 2 man and 4 man or whatever combination playing against 7 - 10 or 12 man groups of players that consistently play and practice together and that do communicate effectively are in imbalance that can be corrected.

There is no reason of any kind to subject a new player to fighting against such odds immediately upon booting the game up. Let the guy play in small groups against other small groups until HE decides he's ready (if he ever does) to join a larger unit.

I don't understand why you guys are so afraid of that concept..........is it because you're afraid you'd have to wait longer (most like will actually) to get a match and you're impatient? Is it because you're terrified that you might actually have to fight an opponent on closer to equal ground than you have been? I'm honestly not sure.

[Mystere]

Lazor Sharp, on 27 June 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

MUD,

I hear ya bro...

For me, the last 30 years has been like watching a slow motion train wreck on the world stage. And Greece may be the domino that sets up the final crash......

Well, you can either just wither and die by doing nothing, or you can be prepared.

<Which reminds me. I need to pass by my parents' house and pick up my katana, as well as build myself a new recurve bow. They might come in handy.>

[Mystere]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

No, the analogy fits just fine............a group that plays together, practices together and communicates well is always going to have an advantage over a mixed group that doesn't do those things............and mixed groups of 2 man and 4 man or whatever combination playing against 7 - 10 or 12 man groups of players that consistently play and practice together and that do communicate effectively are in imbalance that can be corrected.

There is no reason of any kind to subject a new player to fighting against such odds immediately upon booting the game up. Let the guy play in small groups against other small groups until HE decides he's ready (if he ever does) to join a larger unit.

I don't understand why you guys are so afraid of that concept..........is it because you're afraid you'd have to wait longer (most like will actually) to get a match and you're impatient? Is it because you're terrified that you might actually have to fight an opponent on closer to equal ground than you have been? I'm honestly not sure.

Nope. As I previously mentioned, it's really just as simple as accepting that the better team should win in a team-oriented game.

And again, there must be a better solution other than marginalizing a group of people for the benefit of another one, even if the latter were larger.

Besides, not all 12-mans are created equal. But then again I am Clan Jade Falcon.

Edited by Mystere, 27 June 2015 - 04:11 PM.

[Haji1096]

My own personal opinion is this:

There is a real issue that there is no place to introduce a couple of friends to the game. This game has a steep learning curve and it is easy to draw false conclusions as to why you lost. Its not easy to level a mech in the group queue for experienced pilots, and its not something a new player should attempt.

One inexperienced player on a team in the group queue is enough to bias the match. A 1 mech lead is significant.

However, I don't think getting rid of 12 man groups from group queue is a good solution. This is a team game and banning a specific size of group from the arena in which they should play because PGI can't figure out a good way for new players to drop with a friend is insane. What amount of teamwork and coordination is too much ? Where are you going to draw the line ?

Do you want separate queue for each group size ? Will people can finally stop complaining about losing then ? No, they will just start complaining that the other team ran too many meta builds or that they are in ELO hell. Outside of the real issue of: "There is no where for me to drop with my friend who is new the game." Much of this complaining strikes me as sore loserness,laziness, exacerbated by the lack of tools to actually command a drop.

For the most part, if 3 four man's can't compete with a 12 man, its their own fault. Voice communications are integrated in the game but there isn't much else. The map commands are too clunky and take up too much space on the mini map. PGI should have a better system in terms of team of various groups to coordinate before the match begins.

Something like two minutes for the players to vote on a commander, and then a commander to implement/explain his plan. Set up Nav points to direct movement, have a graphic that denotes where a firing line should be / and where to face. Much of this stuff is apparent to experienced players, but it would help coordination from different groups.

There also should be a reward for attempting to lead a match. There should be a reward for following the commanders plan. There should be a different type of arena with rewards for small groups to introduce new players to the game.

[Lazor Sharp]

mystere,

i have been prepared, as much as the better 1/2 will let me, food, ammo, etc....
installed 9500 Watts of solar last year, etc................
I can see the possible **** storm coming, and have seen that possibility in my dreams since i was 12

it has never been a question of if the **** hits the fan, only a question of when, and in what form will the change's be

Edited by Lazor Sharp, 27 June 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[R Razor]

You are absolutely right, getting rid of 12 mans (or any groups size) isn't the answer............making those groups fight against groups that are the same size would go a long way towards helping though.

As you can see by reading this thread, there are a few that don't want to see any change like that, they enjoy the fact that since they are a part of a larger group they can seal club with near impunity and they will fight tooth and nail to keep that advantage and damned what's best for the health of the game.

Apparently, to them, they are the better team because they are larger and play together, as if that in some way equates to skill..........the truth is, they win more because they play together more.........put them up against an equally sized team with the same skill level,and the same amount of time practicing together and watch them suddenly have to work for those kills and wins.......anything that takes away from their advantage is to be shunned.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Mystere, on 27 June 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well, you can either just wither and die by doing nothing, or you can be prepared.

<Which reminds me. I need to pass by my parents' house and pick up my katana, as well as build myself a new recurve bow. They might come in handy.>

Best preparation is mental. Spent some time in war torn countries and all the preparation in the world means nothing if you have to move. You only own what you can carry. Some good basic skills goes a long way too.

[Triordinant]

Jheakryna, on 27 June 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

that is ******** of course, srsly.
just match a 2 man team with another 2 man team, 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4.

it's not that big of a deal.

It IS a big deal to Russ Bullock and PGI. For them, groups of ANY size screw up the solo queue and they have the data (data that none of us have) to prove it . Source.

[Triordinant]

Haji1096, on 27 June 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

There also should be a reward for attempting to lead a match. There should be a reward for following the commanders plan. There should be a different type of arena with rewards for small groups to introduce new players to the game.

I concur on all three.

[Mainhunter]

It would be a start, if 12 man teams had always to attack. I witnessed several times, when we, only puggers, had to attack in CW a10+ man team. Thats totally nonsense and ended, in the most cases, with spawn camping, after the first dead.

[Ace Selin]

I dont see a problem that needs to be solved here

If this is true " 'Majority' of vocal players still want to play with large groups. Doesn't understand how its fun for stomping solos and small groups but that's how it is. BUT 6% of groups are 6- 10 ... Less than 1 % 11 - 12 93% are groups of 4 or less."

6-10 players = 6%
12 players (11 man group dont exist) = 1%

Then the odds of coming up against a 12 man are once every 100 games (not very often so we can leave 12mans in the group queue) & the odds of coming up against a 6-10 man (larger group) are like once every 16 games (again not that often really). So no change needed really.