69 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Moldur, on 26 June 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

Wait, you mean the firestarter is meant to have flamers? hahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHA

You mean like how the Awesome is meant to have PPCs, Catapults and Trebuchets LRMs, Urbanmechs Small Lasers, etc.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

You mean like how the Awesome is meant to have PPCs, Catapults and Trebuchets LRMs, Urbanmechs Small Lasers, etc.

That only matters when you hate Firestarters, when you are talking about mechs you do like it's OK to just put anything you want on them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 June 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

That only matters when you hate Firestarters, when you are talking about mechs you do like it's OK to just put anything you want on them.

I'd actually still prefer the mechs I like to resemble their real selves, if at all possible, in most cases. Thank goodness the HBK-4G is my jam!

And if they had quirked the FS9 to make Flamers useful? I'd be more inclined to play them, personally.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 June 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

And if they had quirked the FS9 to make Flamers useful? I'd be more inclined to play them, personally.

I'd have been OK if they did that for one of the variants (like the FS9-K for example), would be kind of boring to have 4 or 5 variants of a mech all based around the same weapon though.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

And if they had quirked the FS9 to make Flamers useful? I'd be more inclined to play them, personally.

I'm not sure if PGI's current quirk toolbox has enough tools in it to make this happen. Their current set of quirks seems to be fairly broad/generic and shared across many weapon types.

In the case of Flamers, the only things they can do there are increase range and reduce heat on the user. I don't think that either of those quirks could make Flamers anywhere able to compete with other 1-ton energy weapons (Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser), or even the humble Small Laser.

You'd have to crank up the range and down the heat to pants-on-head extreme values that would make people cry "overquirked!" even harder than they do for Dragons or Hunchbacks. Flamers just need a redesign from the ground-up, and once Flamers are viable on every mech then we can worry about quirking specific chassis for the weapon.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm not sure if PGI's current quirk toolbox has enough tools in it to make this happen. Their current set of quirks seems to be fairly broad/generic and shared across many weapon types.

In the case of Flamers, the only things they can do there are increase range and reduce heat on the user. I don't think that either of those quirks could make Flamers anywhere able to compete with other 1-ton energy weapons (Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser), or even the humble Small Laser.

You'd have to crank up the range and down the heat to pants-on-head extreme values that would make people cry "overquirked!" even harder than they do for Dragons or Hunchbacks. Flamers just need a redesign from the ground-up, and once Flamers are viable on every mech then we can worry about quirking specific chassis for the weapon.

PGI just needs to make Flamers a different kind of weapon than they currently are. I suggest a MechCommander-style PPFLD short range energy option. I think such a weapon would make near-stock Firestarters rather beastly, within their speciality.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm not sure if PGI's current quirk toolbox has enough tools in it to make this happen. Their current set of quirks seems to be fairly broad/generic and shared across many weapon types.

In the case of Flamers, the only things they can do there are increase range and reduce heat on the user. I don't think that either of those quirks could make Flamers anywhere able to compete with other 1-ton energy weapons (Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser), or even the humble Small Laser.

You'd have to crank up the range and down the heat to pants-on-head extreme values that would make people cry "overquirked!" even harder than they do for Dragons or Hunchbacks. Flamers just need a redesign from the ground-up, and once Flamers are viable on every mech then we can worry about quirking specific chassis for the weapon.

IIRC Mike Forst also mentioned flamers as being (technically, not balance wise) problematic to quirk.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 26 June 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

IIRC Mike Forst also mentioned flamers as being (technically, not balance wise) problematic to quirk.

Might that have to do with their weird visual FX? I can imagine that causing issues if range quirked. I'm not sure how heat would affect the user because of the whole exponential multiplier thingy.

[Burktross]

It and the Orion IIC might be the first clannerscum mechs I buy with real cash cheddar.
It looks gloriousssss

[bad arcade kitty]

Burktross, on 26 June 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

It and the Orion IIC might be the first clannerscum mechs I buy with real cash cheddar.
It looks gloriousssss

at first i thought he had 3 arms lol

[bad arcade kitty]

Wintersdark, on 26 June 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Dual LBX 20's have no ghost heat. Just saying.

1 uac-20 and 1 lbx-20, no ghostheat too (:

[CyclonerM]

Well, the Hunchback IIC was meant for aging or disgraced warriors to die with a spark of glory.. Or for Jade Falcons cadet to get easy kills in their Trial of Position

Btw, they are all beautiful!

Edited by CyclonerM, 26 June 2015 - 04:06 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm not sure if PGI's current quirk toolbox has enough tools in it to make this happen. Their current set of quirks seems to be fairly broad/generic and shared across many weapon types.

In the case of Flamers, the only things they can do there are increase range and reduce heat on the user. I don't think that either of those quirks could make Flamers anywhere able to compete with other 1-ton energy weapons (Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser), or even the humble Small Laser.

You'd have to crank up the range and down the heat to pants-on-head extreme values that would make people cry "overquirked!" even harder than they do for Dragons or Hunchbacks. Flamers just need a redesign from the ground-up, and once Flamers are viable on every mech then we can worry about quirking specific chassis for the weapon.

I would imagine they could increase the Heat Generated on target, too?

Combine that with reduced heat for the user, and I think one could find a niche for them. It might take wacky levels like oh, DRG-1N style, but you know, whatever it takes.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

I would imagine they could increase the Heat Generated on target, too?

Combine that with reduced heat for the user, and I think one could find a niche for them. It might take wacky levels like oh, DRG-1N style, but you know, whatever it takes.

B-b-b-but it's so overquirked brah. NO QUIRKS SHOULD EVER BE OVER 15%, AMIRITE DAWG?

PS: Until they actually unveil that they can modify the heat to enemy, which uses really weird tags in the code, I can only assume that they can't quirk it.

From the XML, I think that the two variables in question are "heatinctime" and "trgheatinctime." I don't expect PGI to currently have the ability to modify such things outside of the XML itself.

<Weapon id="1210" name="ClanFlamer" HardpointAliases="Flamer,Energy" faction="Clan">
	<Loc nameTag="@ClanFlamer" descTag="@ClanFlamer_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanFlamer.dds"/>
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Energy" projectileclass="" numFiring="1" damage="0.7" heatdamage="0.0" impulse="0.0" heat="1.0" cooldown="0.0" ammoType="" ammoPerShot="0" minRange="0" longRange="90.0" maxRange="90.0" tons="0.5" duration="-1.0" lifetime="1.0" speed="100" volleydelay="0.25" maxheight="0" coneoffire="10" heatinctime="6.25" trgheatinctime="3.0" maxDepth="10.0" critDamMult="1.1" critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03"/>
	<EffectList>
	  <Effect name="Beam" asset=""/>
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeam" asset="mech_weapons.flamer.flame_jet"/>
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeamFP" asset="mech_weapons.flamer.flame_jet_fp"/>
	  <Effect name="TraceEffects" asset="flamer"/>
	  <Effect name="Sound:FireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons_clan:flamer_clan:flamer_clan" float="0.0"/>
	  <Effect name="Sound:PostFireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons_clan:flamer_clan:flamer_clan_tail" float="0.0"/>
	  <Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\lrm_20.tif"/>
	  <Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="laser" float="64" float2="64"/>
	</EffectList>
	<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Flamer_Destroyed"/>
  </Weapon>

Edited by FupDup, 26 June 2015 - 07:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 June 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I'd have been OK if they did that for one of the variants (like the FS9-K for example), would be kind of boring to have 4 or 5 variants of a mech all based around the same weapon though.

Some variants were laser based to begin with, and thus would get laser Quirks.
-The K was based on a Large Laser ands it's primary weapon, thus it should have LL quirks.
-the H and S should have some form of Flamer Quirks (hey, plenty of laser mechs about, laservomit is the epitome of boring)
-A and Ember, perhaps have more generic energy quirks, the Ember also should get the MGs buffed, RoF and Crit Chance.

But truly, having all mechs shoved into the same dull minmax meta box is the most boring thing of all.

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

B-b-b-but it's so overquirked brah. NO QUIRKS SHOULD EVER BE OVER 15%, AMIRITE DAWG?

PS: Until they actually unveil that they can modify the heat to enemy, which uses really weird tags in the code, I can only assume that they can't quirk it.

From the XML, I think that the two variables in question are "heatinctime" and "trgheatinctime."

<Weapon id="1210" name="ClanFlamer" HardpointAliases="Flamer,Energy" faction="Clan">
	<Loc nameTag="@ClanFlamer" descTag="@ClanFlamer_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanFlamer.dds"/>
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Energy" projectileclass="" numFiring="1" damage="0.7" heatdamage="0.0" impulse="0.0" heat="1.0" cooldown="0.0" ammoType="" ammoPerShot="0" minRange="0" longRange="90.0" maxRange="90.0" tons="0.5" duration="-1.0" lifetime="1.0" speed="100" volleydelay="0.25" maxheight="0" coneoffire="10" heatinctime="6.25" trgheatinctime="3.0" maxDepth="10.0" critDamMult="1.1" critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03"/>
	<EffectList>
	  <Effect name="Beam" asset=""/>
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeam" asset="mech_weapons.flamer.flame_jet"/>
	  <Effect name="ParticleBeamFP" asset="mech_weapons.flamer.flame_jet_fp"/>
	  <Effect name="TraceEffects" asset="flamer"/>
	  <Effect name="Sound:FireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons_clan:flamer_clan:flamer_clan" float="0.0"/>
	  <Effect name="Sound:PostFireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons_clan:flamer_clan:flamer_clan_tail" float="0.0"/>
	  <Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\lrm_20.tif"/>
	  <Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="laser" float="64" float2="64"/>
	</EffectList>
	<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Flamer_Destroyed"/>
  </Weapon>

pretty sure they have modified the heat in the past, if the heat itself can get modified, it can almost assuredly be quirked.

As for "b-b.but overquirked", as I've stated before, there is the "ideal" World of quirks, and then there is what we have. If we are going to bother quirking something, might as well give it some chance to compete in the game we have.

That's called common sense.

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

You'd have to crank up the range and down the heat to pants-on-head extreme values that would make people cry "overquirked!" even harder than they do for Dragons or Hunchbacks. Flamers just need a redesign from the ground-up, and once Flamers are viable on every mech then we can worry about quirking specific chassis for the weapon.

which would somehow be worse than the whining is now about FS9?

bad arcade kitty, on 26 June 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

at first i thought he had 3 arms lol

nope, he's just happy to see you.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 June 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

pretty sure they have modified the heat in the past, if the heat itself can get modified, it can almost assuredly be quirked.

When they modified Flamer heat in the past, they did so by generic changes to Weapons.XML, not by quirks. We have not yet seen any form of Flamer quirks.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

As for "b-b.but overquirked", as I've stated before, there is the "ideal" World of quirks, and then there is what we have. If we are going to bother quirking something, might as well give it some chance to compete in the game we have.

That's called common sense.

I was trying to passive-aggressively poke fun at people who fixate on the numeric values of the quirks rather than their impact in-game. For example, I've seen somebody actually claim that VINDICATORS were overquirked. Lol.

I personally don't think any mechs are overquirked, there are many that I would quirk differently but I wouldn't nerf their overall combat PowerLevel.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

which would somehow be worse than the whining is now about FS9?

Well, I guess it would be kinda hilarious to tell people that they couldn't complain about it because Flamers were the mech's lore role.

Edited by FupDup, 26 June 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Wintersdark, on 26 June 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Dual LBX 20's have no ghost heat. Just saying.

Ha, I've now decided to buy the pack based on my imagining of the sound of that firing alone.

Ba-DOOOOOOOOooom

[Scratx]

To everyone drooling thinking of the Hunchback IIC ... you are now obligated to play your first match with it STOCK. Kill someone with it, then die gloriously!

Then you can go make your dual gauss babies with it.


( PS : I am probably doing this too, for the lulz )

[InspectorG]

lordtzar, on 26 June 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

The jamback

AHHHH

You inspired me!!!



Many just wont be able, just cant even dat funk!!!

[N a p e s]

Scratx, on 26 June 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

To everyone drooling thinking of the Hunchback IIC ... you are now obligated to play your first match with it STOCK. Kill someone with it, then die gloriously!

Then you can go make your dual gauss babies with it.


( PS : I am probably doing this too, for the lulz )

On board with this.