351 replies to this topic

[MilesTeg1982]

EgoSlayer, on 29 June 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Wow, really? The mechanic is the exact same, real match or testing ground. The mechanics and health don't change. Two people in a private match could demonstrate the same thing, it would just require two people with premium time to prove, but it's completely necessary in this case because the testing ground mechanics are the exact same.

FYI I've dual Gauss head shot mechs in match at least twice. It can happen, it's just rare. And hard when people are moving round avoiding fire - but that is completely irrelevant in the discussion of *if* it can happen because the testing here is about the *mechanic* (it can happen) not the frequency of the occurance.

so lets see:

1. the mechanics are NOT the same - cause in a real match:
- enemie mechs do move (= harder to hit, espeacially very tiny hitboxes)
- every enemie mech has a different latency and that has a direct effect on hit registration
- enemies shot back (= screen shake = makes it harder to aim)
- enemies do use cover (means you do have to aim quick and don't forget to charge up your gauss so you can shot them in the exact right moment)
- enemies receive damage from teammates or friendly fire

2. you claim that 2 people could demonstrate it in a private match - why not in public pug? seriously why not? (let me guess, the answer is allready given in 1.?)

3. I'm not saying that head shots with gauss or dual gauss are impossible, just that its very rare. However I do say that instand kills by dual gauss through headshots are so rarely that they can be considered being not relevant.

So lets sum it up - we are talking about something here that can happen very rarely - so why again are we discussing it? Oh, because someone claimed it is worth a discussion. Its just not!

However - I do know that its actually a hopeless task to argue with excel-warriors - so this will be my last post in this useless topic, have fun kids, just don't forget to grow up some time

Edited by MilesTeg1982, 29 June 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 29 June 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

I fully support 30 - 35 tons of weapons (includes ammo) being able to headshot kill a target.

So if the crit system is changed, then I'd like to see Head Internal Structure reduced to compensate to allow this.

Why?

Because it's hard to do, it's rare and it adds an element of danger to the game that I like without it being so easily repeatable as to consistently circumvent the rest of the armor/component system.

Headshotting in FPS games is common, and while we are piloting giant stompy robots - we do have cockpits/heads where the pilot is and blowing through that with 2x Gauss rifles seems plausible.

My thinking as well. Not FPS level headshots (which are stupid, in this context) but our nice, very difficult headshots that are somewhat challenging even if someone is standing still.

MilesTeg1982, on 29 June 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

rubbish - you can not translate testing grounds into a real match - you are making something up here kid. The only reason why people do that is because they want a weapon to get nerfed - so congrats, your bright enough for not directly asking for the nerf, does not change anything.

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wanna know how I know you are making something up? Cause I actually do use Dual Gauss builds (798K EXP on DWF Primes, 826K EXP with DWF-B, 837K EXP on DWF-A, 1.232K EXP on CTF-4X - all of them with Dual Gauss and not even considering other Dual Gauss Mechs I tried over time). Headshot happen very rarely, Headshot kill with no other damage done? never experienced that. Most of the time - 1-shot-kills actually happens is someone turning his back to a high alpha build with very little or no rear armor - congrats, there is only 1 way to fix this: nerf brain

Making something up? He has video proof. Clearly, there is no "making up" - what's more, those are known, understood, existing game mechanics not some flight of fancy.

Simply because YOU don't get dual gauss headshots doesn't mean they can't happen. As I said above, I don't agree it's a problem, but it obviously happens.

Mcgral18, on 29 June 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Can you recommend a video capture software? 30 seconds of FRAPs isn't ideal.

MSI Afterburner. It's not actually video card specific, and it's ostensibly primarily for video card overclocking, but it's fully free, you don't need to use the overclocking features if you don't want to, but it DOES do full video capture at a very, very minor (the lowest I've found so far) performance impact. I find I lose ~2fps recording raw, uncompressed video at 1080p60.

EgoSlayer, on 29 June 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Wow, really? The mechanic is the exact same, real match or testing ground. The mechanics and health don't change. Two people in a private match could demonstrate the same thing, it would just require two people with premium time to prove, but it's completely necessary in this case because the testing ground mechanics are the exact same.

FYI I've dual Gauss head shot mechs in match at least twice. It can happen, it's just rare. And hard when people are moving round avoiding fire - but that is completely irrelevant in the discussion of *if* it can happen because the testing here is about the *mechanic* (it can happen) not the frequency of the occurance.

Right.

One can argue (Several of us are) that it can and does happen, but it happens rarely, and requires skill and luck (or prodigious luck) to pull off, so it's a feature not a bug.

But just attacking McGral for taking a scientific approach here and investigating a phenomena that few people understand, then asking your opinion on it? What's up with that? He's doing what we need MORE posters doing: Objectively analyzing game mechanics, educating players, getting people talking about how the game works.

[Sjorpha]

Mcgral18, on 29 June 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Can you recommend a video capture software? 30 seconds of FRAPs isn't ideal.

Afterburner

Combined easy to use overclocking tool with integrated video capture supporting manually installed codecs, so you can choose the best one for your GPU. (I'm using H264 with MKV wrapper) It's much much faster than fraps, at least for me, especially given that you can temporarily push the overclocking just for the match you want captured, which is fine if you don't do it too often. Also supports constant framerate control for video smoothness, video buffering (buffers while you play so you can "record" things after they happen, like nvidia shadowplay but not hardware bound) and other nice tools.

Oh, and it's completely free.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 June 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Wronka]

I was just 1 hit critical headshotted by a dual gauss KGC last week. It really sucked to go from full HP to dead instantly. However, I have now played over 2000 matches and I have been headshotted maybe 3-4 times. I do not think we need to waste resources looking into headshots when they are already so very rare.

[LordBraxton]

Times Ive been headshotted by dual gauss = 0

Times ive been headshotted by artillery = 25+

[Wintersdark]

MilesTeg1982, on 29 June 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

so lets see:

1. the mechanics are NOT the same - cause in a real match:
- enemie mechs do move (= harder to hit, espeacially very tiny hitboxes)
- every enemie mech has a different latency and that has a direct effect on hit registration
- enemies shot back (= screen shake = makes it harder to aim)
- enemies do use cover (means you do have to aim quick and don't forget to charge up your gauss so you can shot them in the exact right moment)
- enemies receive damage from teammates or friendly fire

None of this is relevant.

McGral isn't commenting on how easy or hard one-shotting someone with dual gauss is, merely that it's possible to kill someone outright with 30 points of damage to their cockpit, despite them having 18pts of armor and 15pts of structure - which, without knowledge of the crit system, would seem impossible.

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2. you claim that 2 people could demonstrate it in a private match - why not in public pug? seriously why not? (let me guess, the answer is allready given in 1.?)

It'd be hard to demonstrate in a public pug, but not impossible. It WOULD take a lot of time running a dual gauss mech, recording everything, over and over again to capture it.

Again, McGral isn't discussing likelyhood or frequency, only that it CAN happen.

The crit mechanics at play are the same in the testing grounds. The situations are not the same, but the mechanics are.

Quote

3. I'm not saying that head shots with gauss or dual gauss are impossible, just that its very rare. However I do say that instand kills by dual gauss through headshots are so rarely that they can be considered being not relevant.

That's not what you've been saying. You've been outright attacking McGral and insulting him from your first post.

Saying "It's very uncommon, so this isn't a problem to me" is fine, but you haven't said that.

Quote

So lets sum it up - we are talking about something here that can happen very rarely - so why again are we discussing it? Oh, because someone claimed it is worth a discussion. Its just not!

It IS worth a discussion, if for no other reason than educating players on how headshots work and - in this instance - how trimming even a very small amount of cockpit armor makes you MASSIVELY more vulnerable to instagib by dual gauss.

Quote

However - I do know that its actually a hopeless task to argue with excel-warriors - so this will be my last post in this useless topic, have fun kids, just don't forget to grow up some time

I despair at this. How can people ever discuss things on these forums and actually learn how the game works when people are like this? Grow up some? You're implying there's some measure of immaturity to rationally discussing game mechanics? But not in verbally(textually?) attacking people for scientifically examining something?

[EgoSlayer]

MilesTeg1982, on 29 June 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

so lets see:

1. the mechanics are NOT the same - cause in a real match:
- enemie mechs do move (= harder to hit, espeacially very tiny hitboxes)
- every enemie mech has a different latency and that has a direct effect on hit registration
- enemies shot back (= screen shake = makes it harder to aim)
- enemies do use cover (means you do to aim quick and don't forget to charge up your gauss so you can shot them in the exact right moment)
- enemies receive damage from teammates or friendly fire

2. you claim that 2 people could demonstrate it in a private match - why not in public pug? seriously why not? (let me guess, the answer is allready given in 1.?)

3. I'm not saying that head shots with gauss or dual gauss are impossible, just that its very rare. However I do say that instand kills by dual gauss through headshots are so rarely that they can be considered being not relevant.

So lets sum it up - we are talking about something here that can happen very rarely - so why again are we discussing it? Oh, because someone claimed it is worth a discussion. Its just not!

However - I do know that its actually a hopeless task to argue with excel-warriors - so this will be my last post in this useless topic, have fun kids, just don't forget to grow up some time

The mechanics of hit registration, damage, and critical hits (barring wonky hit regsitration) DO NOT CHANGE IN ANY GAME MODE.

Point one - Mechs moving doesn't change the mechanic, it changes difficulty not the mechanic. So point 1 is completely misunderstood by you.

Point two - if you know two people that have premium time they can do it in a private match because getting the 22 other people to forgo their match in a public drop so two people can test something won't happen in most matches, further complicated by trying to snyc drop two people on opposite teams. Private matches are controlled and everyone involved is a willing participant. The game mechanics DON'T CHANGE (see point one)

Point three - everyone in this thread has said that. It's rare, the question posed is "Is the occurrence of this one shot kill rare enough that it isn't an issue?".

Edited by EgoSlayer, 29 June 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

One can argue (Several of us are) that it can and does happen, but it happens rarely, and requires skill and luck (or prodigious luck) to pull off, so it's a feature not a bug.

But just attacking McGral for taking a scientific approach here and investigating a phenomena that few people understand, then asking your opinion on it? What's up with that? He's doing what we need MORE posters doing: Objectively analyzing game mechanics, educating players, getting people talking about how the game works.

Nooo, I just need to git gud and stop whining, not try to explain how game mechanics work, and ask if the community likes them.

I swear, half of Outreach is illiterate.

Wronka, on 29 June 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

I was just 1 hit critical headshotted by a dual gauss KGC last week. It really sucked to go from full HP to dead instantly. However, I have now played over 2000 matches and I have been headshotted maybe 3-4 times. I do not think we need to waste resources looking into headshots when they are already so very rare.

It's more the fact it's an excellent crit weapon on top of being great at everything else as well. Destroys AC20s just as well as cockpits, from considerably further out

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 29 June 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Nooo, I just need to git gud and stop whining, not try to explain how game mechanics work, and ask if the community likes them.

I swear, half of Outreach is illiterate.

I find it actually depressing. "Science bad! Must attack those using it!"

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It's more the fact it's an excellent crit weapon on top of being great at everything else as well. Destroys AC20s just as well as cockpits, from considerably further out

Yup, but at a cost: it's also the only weapon in the game that is explosive, and has a charge mechanic.

What bothers me more about our crit system is how nobody really understands how it works, then they all go off on "crit seeking" weapons being somehow good (although with NO grasp whatsoever on what any of it actually means).

Really (and not because I want to see dual gauss headshots end) I think the whole crit system needs to be ripped out and rethought, and something much simpler implemented. Our crit system is incredibly complex, requires pages and pages of explaining, and is still completely misunderstood by almost all players. And there's very little gain for all that cost, it rarely actually impacts gameplay in the slightest.

Sjorpha, on 29 June 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Afterburner

Combined easy to use overclocking tool with integrated video capture supporting manually installed codecs, so you can choose the best one for your GPU. (I'm using H264 with MKV wrapper) It's much much faster than fraps, at least for me, especially given that you can temporarily push the overclocking just for the match you want captured, which is fine if you don't do it too often. Also supports constant framerate control for video smoothness, video buffering (buffers while you play so you can "record" things after they happen, like nvidia shadowplay but not hardware bound) and other nice tools.

Oh, and it's completely free.

Yup. Been using it for many years, over all sorts of GPU's. Works flawlessly every time, with lots of features, no annoying watermarks or delays, and totally free. It's great.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Yup, but at a cost: it's also the only weapon in the game that is explosive, and has a charge mechanic.

What bothers me more about our crit system is how nobody really understands how it works, then they all go off on "crit seeking" weapons being somehow good (although with NO grasp whatsoever on what any of it actually means).

Really (and not because I want to see dual gauss headshots end) I think the whole crit system needs to be ripped out and rethought, and something much simpler implemented. Our crit system is incredibly complex, requires pages and pages of explaining, and is still completely misunderstood by almost all players. And there's very little gain for all that cost, it rarely actually impacts gameplay in the slightest.

And it pays for being excellent at outright killing.


They could increase the LBx series to 5x multiplier instead of 2x, and it would be pretty good at critting. It would only require 2 crits to destroy an item, but each pellet has 3 opportunities to do it. Even the lowly LB2x could theoretically crit something.


Might be excessive for the LB20x...but it would be good at critting. That's the buff Crit Weapons need. Hell, the Flamer doesn't even have a crit damage multiplier, while the MG is at 9x. Just a pitiful weapon.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 29 June 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

And it pays for being excellent at outright killing.


They could increase the LBx series to 5x multiplier instead of 2x, and it would be pretty good at critting. It would only require 2 crits to destroy an item, but each pellet has 3 opportunities to do it. Even the lowly LB2x could theoretically crit something.


Might be excessive for the LB20x...but it would be good at critting. That's the buff Crit Weapons need. Hell, the Flamer doesn't even have a crit damage multiplier, while the MG is at 9x. Just a pitiful weapon.

Sadly, LBx weapons are terrible currently, even if many don't understand how and why they're terrible. Of course, the difference for Clans is much smaller as UAC's are also terrible for the same reason (multiple small shells are FAR worse for crits than large hits, for the reasons you cover in the OP)

Flamers and MG's... well... I've given up on them, largely. One can only crusade for a weapon to be useful for so many years. (Sadly, there was a BRIEF period where MG's actually didn't suck completely... very brief period. That was just cruel.)

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Yup, but at a cost: it's also the only weapon in the game that is explosive, and has a charge mechanic.

Agreed.


While it's a serviceable weapon in close quarters, it's clearly not ideal in close quarters either.

It has nearly a 5s CD time before modules - that's a long time to wait between shots in a brawl.

It can explode, and putting one in an unprotected side torso is riskier than putting (non-gauss) ammo there that you will likely use up before it ever has a chance to explode and yet people stuff Gauss into torsos but avoid putting ammo there.


It has low HP, and is hands down the absolute worst DPS/Ton ballistic weapon in the game (relevant in face hug range).




Gauss is fine, I want zero nerfs for Gauss. It's bad enough we see lasers superior to ballistics in the vast majority of cases, I really don't want to toss Gauss into that pile as well. (That's not what this thread is about but...I thought I'd share).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 June 2015 - 01:45 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

After exhaustive testing I've concluded that McGral is the problem, he's both too skilled and too smart for the average Forum Warrior, so PGI will have to nerf him somehow. Bringing that 'knowledge' bs in here, what the hell man! 'Science', are you joking? PGI NERFZ NOAW!!!1!!!111!1

[Deathlike]

I know ignorance is bliss, but when it's not bliss, it's probably poop.

Mcgral took some time to point out the issue, and whether you agree or not with his premise, he's laying out the reasoning... the science (that anyone can feel free to experiment with themselves on their own time) that this could be an issue for some people.

If you're not interested in finding out or understanding it, then don't be the person that asks "why does this happen" and then ignore mounds of data/evidence and just start spewing "you're hacking". That doesn't help anyone here. If you don't want to find out how or why, that's fine... just don't spew ignorance when you don't want to learn.

There's a reason things are done for science™ and when there is the occasional newbie post to "how did I die in one shot?"... this can be one of many valid answers to the question. If you don't want to understand why/how and methods to prevent it (we haven't even discussed arty/airstrikes causing equally large head crits, that can just as well make the non-Gauss ammo in your head explode). If you don't want to educate yourself, there are plenty of places that are perfect for that... this thread should not be that place.


Just for thought, but MW4 had a system in place for that, but it was only to mitigate the first lucky shot, as the next head shot would immediately kill the player. This kinda helped allow people to skimp on their head armor, but then again it never really fixed death by delayed alpha to the head perfectly (like insta-hit lasers, followed by gauss/PPC projectile to the head, which counted as two separate hits instead of one large alpha in some builds that were laser+Gauss heavy).

Then again, technically you could rarely get a headshot in MW3.

MW2 was odd that it was inconsistent cockpits (kinda like here in MWO) where Jenners would be occasionally easy to headshot compared to other mechs.

So, sometimes you have to analyze what happened in the past in order to really look at the current situation... (seeing if it is a good/bad/meh result).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 June 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Deathlike, MW2 headshots were so difficult to get due to the wonderful hit sphere system that Activision used, and yes, I said hit SPHERE system.

Each component on a Mech had a Sphere for hit detection, 1 for each arm, 1 for each leg, 1 for each side torso, 1 of the center torso, 1 for each rear section section and 1 for the head. And they ALL overlapped, with the head sphere being SO overlapped by the arms and front and rear torso sections that actually hitting the head was almost impossible to do. It was a pretty nifty system at the time, rather absurd by today's standards however. If you could thread that needle, 15 pts was all it took to remove a fully armored cockpit, 1 ERPPC or Gauss round did it every time.

[DeathlyEyes]

30 points of damage to the cockpit should kill a mech. Arty/airstrikes shouldn't do damage at all to cockpits.

[Kmieciu]

I fully support dual gauss one shots!
And I'm fully opposed to Arty/airstrike one shots.

Some of you may know, that since closed beta, the cockpit hitbox has an added resistance to explosion damage (LRM\SRM), because mechs like Atlas and Stalker were being headshotted with LRMs (lol).

This damage resistance either does not apply to Arty/airstrike, or is just bugged, because Arty/airstrike one shots happen more often than skilled dual gauss one shots.

PS. The only Gauss headshot death I remember is form a guy that managed to hit me twice, that is 4 gauss hits in total. And I was running & torso twisting at the same time. Kudos to him.

[Khobai]

The solution is simple: fix the critical hit mechanics

The bonus damage crits do to internal structure should be based off the actual damage done to internals rather than being based off the damage of the weapon.

For example say Gauss hits a location that has 10 armor. It strips that 10 armor and does 5 internal damage location..

The way it currently works, if the gauss does any internal structure damage, and gets a critical hit, it does 15*1.15 bonus damage to the internal structure.

The way it should work in the above example, Gauss should only do 5*1.15 bonus damage to the internal structure.

Why? Because only 5 of the gauss' damage actually hit the internal structure. The other 10 hit armor shouldnt count for bonus damage.

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30 points of damage to the cockpit should kill a mech. Arty/airstrikes shouldn't do damage at all to cockpits.

30 damage to a cockpit should absolutely not kill a mech. Considering how easy it is to do 30 damage to one location. It needs to be at least 35 damage so cockpits require two consecutive hits to destroy. Nobody should be taken out of a fight because of one lucky shot.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2015 - 01:05 AM.

[SirLANsalot]

Most of the time a dual Gauss shot to a FRESH cockpit will not kill a mech. You need at least one crti to kill a FRESH cockpit and thats all RNG. So its not something someone can rely on for a guaranteed kill, this is why back when dual gauss was a thing on the Catapult K2 the dual AC20 was far better at dome shots because it was guaranteed.
Back in those days, the Gauss K2 was faster then the AC20 one because of the use of a higher rated XL vs a low rated STD, but a nice thing about using the mech at all, was not needing the use of DHS.

If someone can hit the cockpit of a mech with a twin gauss shot, more power to ya. However I would keep in mind what mech you do it on, as you will have the same issue all mechs have when putting ballistic weapons in two arms. Convergence will get to you and in a very bad way. Ballistic based guns do not do well when on opposate sides of the mech, this is because your convergence is based on whats under your reidcule NOT your target. So leading a target will cause one of your guns to either not hit at all, or hit a different section of the mech.

This is why the K2 got popular "back in the day" even after the Jager or the cataphract came out, because its convergence is very very small, because both guns are almost right next to each other.



Oh and AC20 is king, lighter and better damage.

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 30 June 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

30 damage to a cockpit should absolutely not kill a mech. Considering how easy it is to do 30 damage to one location. It needs to be at least 35 damage so cockpits require two consecutive hits to destroy. Nobody should be taken out of a fight because of one lucky shot.

Since when it's easy to land a headshot? Excuse my underhiveness but would you mind showing how many headshots you've already made (achievement page) and the total kills number.

Who cares how it works if the end result does not pose a probem?

Edited by kapusta11, 30 June 2015 - 01:17 AM.