351 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Since when it's easy to land a headshot?

I didnt say it was easy. I said it shouldnt be possible to one shot mechs. Regardless of whether its easy or not is irrelevant. The fact remains nobody should be taken out of the game by a lucky shot. It adds absolutely nothing beneficial to the game and all it does is make someones play experience miserable.

And everyone knows theres cheaters out there taking full advantage of the fact you can one shot mechs. If you make headshotting less profitable then cheaters are less likely to try and cheat that way. Less cheating is a good thing. Why would you want to invite cheaters by having one hit kill mechanics? That makes no sense. And when this game goes live on steam there WILL be more cheaters.

Also that has nothing to do with the fact the way crits work needs to be fixed. Bonus internal structure damage from crits needs to be based on the actual damage done to internal structure rather than the damage value of the weapon. It makes no sense that a gauss rifle doing like 1 damage to internal structure gets to use its full 15 damage when calculating bonus damage for crits.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2015 - 01:26 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Mcgral18, on 29 June 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

You don't want me to prove you wrong?

At least post something useful, or just stop.

He has a point though. Whilst the mechanics may theoretically be the same and by the way your OP is mostly theoretical also. The amount of times that people actually in game get head-shot is going to be very, very low. I suspect more people get one shot from rear damage than head-shot damage .. should we do something to mitigate that too, the answer is to beef up rear armour, well the answer to not get head-shot is to keep max armour there & to keep moving. If youre not moving, due to hiding, overheat, lack of care, afk etc, where most head-shots occur, well thats my own fault.

I dont see it as a problem and if you were to head-shot me in game, id congratulate you on a good or lucky shot (or both).

Khobai, on 30 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

I didnt say it was easy. I said it shouldnt be possible to one shot mechs.

In that case can we remove the Warhawk from this game. I was once one shotted through my side torso XL engine by a 4 PPC Warhawk & since we cant allow one shot deaths well, any possibility to one shot anyone by any means needs to be removed too yeah? So lets remove King Crabs, Direwolfs or any mech that can boat to do more than 30 points alphas.

Edited by Ace Selin, 30 June 2015 - 01:38 AM.

[kapusta11]

Khobai, on 30 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

I didnt say it was easy. I said it shouldnt be possible to one shot mechs. Regardless of whether its easy or not is irrelevant.

And everyone knows theres cheaters out there taking full advantage of the fact you can one shot mechs. If you make headshotting less profitable than cheaters are less likely to try and cheat that way.

Also that has nothing to do with the fact the way crits work needs to be fixed. Bonus internal structure damage from crits needs to be based on the actual damage done to internal structure rather than the damage value of the weapon. It makes no sense that a gauss rifle doing like 1 damage to internal structure gets to use its full 15 damage when calculating bonus damage for crits.

So we're going to change the game to fit cheaters in, make cheats less "profitable"?

Surely crit system is broken, you get ONE opportunity, when damage applies to BOTH armor and IS, to deal whopping 2.25 bonus damage AS LONG AS this shot actually crits 1 component and 4.5 damage for 2 crits.

One shot kills occur a bit more often than never, why fix what does not pose a problem when we have tons of stuff to fix already? Whoud Russ or anyone else from PGI acknowledging the "problem" and putting it at the bottom of the priority list, where it should be, suffice?

Edited by kapusta11, 30 June 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In that case can we remove the Warhawk from this game. I was once one shotted through my side torso XL engine by a 4 PPC Warhawk & since we cant allow one shot deaths well

way to take things out of context. we were talking gauss and not allowing one shotting from dual gauss. ERPPCs are not gauss.

theres a huge difference between dual gauss and erppcs. erppcs have pretty awful projectile velocity compared to gauss so youre not one shotting someone at nearly as long range as gauss. Also erppcs cost a tremendous amount of heat, even more ridiculous when fired together, which balances out the damage. x4 erppc falls in the same category as dual AC20. Its balanced because it has severe drawbacks. While dual gauss doesnt really have any serious drawbacks at all; theres no significant heat buildup and chargeup was a failure at balancing the weapon.

theres a reason you see dual gauss in nearly every game but rarely if ever see anyone playing x4 erppcs warhawks.

Quote

So we're going to change the game to fit cheaters in, make cheats less "profitable"?

no thats just one reason. we know the game has cheaters. aimbotting for headshots is precisely how they cheat. so why would you want to encourage that? thats just asinine. Im not saying we should get rid of the head location as a vulnerable hit location just that it shouldnt be one-shottable.

The main reason though is that one-shot headshots really add nothing positive to the game. its not fun getting headshotted in one hit. Other mechwarrior games like MW4 had one-shot protection on the head location precisely for that reason. Because it detracts from the fun of the game.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2015 - 03:38 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ace Selin, on 30 June 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

He has a point though. Whilst the mechanics may theoretically be the same and by the way your OP is mostly theoretical also. The amount of times that people actually in game get head-shot is going to be very, very low. I suspect more people get one shot from rear damage than head-shot damage .. should we do something to mitigate that too, the answer is to beef up rear armour, well the answer to not get head-shot is to keep max armour there & to keep moving. If youre not moving, due to hiding, overheat, lack of care, afk etc, where most head-shots occur, well thats my own fault.

I dont see it as a problem and if you were to head-shot me in game, id congratulate you on a good or lucky shot (or both).

Working on it, although you never know if the other person has max head armour or not. Still working on doubled basics as well.


Having 17 points or less brings it to 42% chance for my Crab, or 49-54% for a Whale. A far cry from 17%.


I have gotten a few headshot+arty kills, the splash almost always deals the required 1-3 damage (if you only got 1 crit, or none). Closest to date is 2 separate Gauss shots killing the mech, but that was quite a bit into a match after I lost the RT. Can't say he wasn't undamaged.

Speed tweak will make it much easier to get into position, and double basics means another 22.5% acceleration...Soon™

[Kristov Kerensky]

Khobai, you said, cleary, 'I said it shouldnt be possible to one shot mechs.',

Now, exactly which part of that statement by you makes it out that you should be able to 1 shot Mechs with something other than dual Gauss? Why, NOTHING does, that's what!

Ace, McGral's statements aren't theory, it happens, I've had it happen to me 1 time to date that I'm actually AWARE of, in my EBJ no less, 1 dual Gauss hit to the cockpit and I was out of the game, no damage to the cockpit prior to the hit, full armor on my cockpit as well, and it was an IS Mech that did it, so he didn't even have the upgraded crit chance that a TC gives the Clan players. Now, that is only once in years now, that I am aware of, but it DOES happen, it's NOT theory.

I'm personally well on my way to the 100 headshot mark, I actively go for headshots, but I don't typically carry dual Gauss because I use IS Mechs and only a few are capable of carrying them, my King Crab is the only dual Gauss IS Mech I run, and I've gotten more than a few single shot kills with it hitting cockpits, although I also use 2 ERLs with the Gauss, so I can't honestly tell you how many times the dual Gauss did the job all by itself and how many times the ERLs were the reason it happened. I usually have to hit my target twice or more times to take out the cockpit, because they are moving and it's not easy to get all my damage into that area, and not all my alphas are high enough damage to do it anyway.

1 shot kills in PvP games where the ability to AIM actually matters are not new, they are not rare and they are the rule, not the exception. Most of them allow headshots FAR more easily than MWO does, they also allow AoE attacks that can 1 shot multiple targets, something we HAD in MWO when Arty/Airstrikes were first added and since removed. If you get 1 shotted by Arty/Airstrikes, either your cockpit was already damaged or you got a very rare crit, and I'd have to ask McGral if arty/airstrikes DO crit, because I honestly don't know. I know I've caught them on my cockpit and not died many times since they lowered the damage they do to remove the headshots they were doing so often once upon a time, which I got taken down by more than a few times back at that time.

[Mystere]

DeathlyEyes, on 29 June 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

30 points of damage to the cockpit should kill a mech. Arty/airstrikes shouldn't do damage at all to cockpits.

I disagree. I do not want any more magic force fields protecting cockpits. In fact, remove all such magic force fields.

Kmieciu, on 30 June 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

And I'm fully opposed to Arty/airstrike one shots.

Some of you may know, that since closed beta, the cockpit hitbox has an added resistance to explosion damage (LRM\SRM), because mechs like Atlas and Stalker were being headshotted with LRMs (lol).

This damage resistance either does not apply to Arty/airstrike, or is just bugged, because Arty/airstrike one shots happen more often than skilled dual gauss one shots.

That's because they are magic force fields that do not take strikes into account. GOOD!

This game is neither D&D nor WoW.

Should I post that video again of a 52-ton Israeli Centurion tank being destroyed top side by an artillery shell?

Edited by Mystere, 30 June 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 30 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

I didnt say it was easy. I said it shouldnt be possible to one shot mechs. Regardless of whether its easy or not is irrelevant. The fact remains nobody should be taken out of the game by a lucky shot. It adds absolutely nothing beneficial to the game and all it does is make someones play experience miserable.

I call that the "fear factor". When people are afraid, they tend to make mistakes. The enemy knowing that there is someone out there who can take them out in one shot -- no matter how small the probability -- makes them do or not do certain things. That makes them ripe for exploitation.

And I find using cheaters as an excuse for not allowing one-shot kills is at best a red herring and at worst cheap. Cheaters can just as well alpha the rear to get a one-shot kill too. Should we remove that possibility as well?

There are other better things to "fix" in this game than some perceived "problem" that rarely happens.

Edited by Mystere, 30 June 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Mystere, on 30 June 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

I disagree. I do not want any more magic force fields protecting cockpits. In fact, remove all such magic force fields.




That's because they are magic force fields that do not take strikes into account. GOOD!

This game is neither D&D nor WoW.

Should I post that video again of a 52-ton Israeli Centurion tank being destroyed top side by an artillery shell?

Then maybe magic artillery should be removed? Like the magic insta cast smoke launcher? or the fact that your artillery teams seem to have a 3 second delay between you BEGINNING to call the strike in, and actual shells on target?

dont bring realism into battletech, especially using a tank from the 1940s as an example.

[Mcgral18]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 June 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

1 shot kills in PvP games where the ability to AIM actually matters are not new, they are not rare and they are the rule, not the exception. Most of them allow headshots FAR more easily than MWO does, they also allow AoE attacks that can 1 shot multiple targets, something we HAD in MWO when Arty/Airstrikes were first added and since removed. If you get 1 shotted by Arty/Airstrikes, either your cockpit was already damaged or you got a very rare crit, and I'd have to ask McGral if arty/airstrikes DO crit, because I honestly don't know. I know I've caught them on my cockpit and not died many times since they lowered the damage they do to remove the headshots they were doing so often once upon a time, which I got taken down by more than a few times back at that time.

I've had weapons be destroyed and head ammo blown out when only a Strike could have done them...so I'll go with yes.


They also still deal 35 damage, which is enough to headshot on their own.



I enjoy getting a Gauss headshot to try for the 1 shot, then drop a strike if it didn't work. Almost guaranteed kill. Works the other way around as well.

[Mystere]

LordBraxton, on 30 June 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Then maybe magic artillery should be removed? Like the magic insta cast smoke launcher? or the fact that your artillery teams seem to have a 3 second delay between you BEGINNING to call the strike in, and actual shells on target?

dont bring realism into battletech, especially using a tank from the 1940s as an example.

I have been asking for the strike smoke mechanic to be replaced by TAG (and at the same time TAG made visible/invisible depending on atmospheric conditions). But, being blown to bits by a direct hit top side by an artillery shell or bomb should stay.

And it's not 3 seconds.

And finally, in case you haven't noticed, this topic involves SCIENCE!

[Kristov Kerensky]

LordBraxton, on 30 June 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Then maybe magic artillery should be removed? Like the magic insta cast smoke launcher? or the fact that your artillery teams seem to have a 3 second delay between you BEGINNING to call the strike in, and actual shells on target?

dont bring realism into battletech, especially using a tank from the 1940s as an example.

Actually, calling arty or an airstrike on a target can often take a LOT longer than 3 seconds in real life, and that's IF you have assets on standby just for that purpose, just ask anyone who's been in real combat about that. They also tend to hit a much larger area for arty or are far more direct with airstrikes.

In BTech, these are usually something that happens the round AFTER you call for them, arty or airstrikes, and you either give a grid coord or you use TAG to indicate the target and have to keep that TAG on target until the strike hits.

They aren't magical, they are done using assets on standby, either specifically to support YOUR operation, in which case response times will be shorter, or they are simply on standby for anyone needing the support and the response time can be a little longer or just as quick depending on location, requests with higher priority or whatever. Nothing magical about arty/airstrike support for military operations, real life or BTech, they exist.

Mcgral18, on 30 June 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

I've had weapons be destroyed and head ammo blown out when only a Strike could have done them...so I'll go with yes.


They also still deal 35 damage, which is enough to headshot on their own.



I enjoy getting a Gauss headshot to try for the 1 shot, then drop a strike if it didn't work. Almost guaranteed kill. Works the other way around as well.

Thank McGral, I didn't know about arty/airstrikes and crits, and I thought the damage was 35 but wasn't sure simply because I've taken plenty of cockpit hits from them without being dropped, figured they'd either dropped it to 30 OR put something in place to reduce the damage done to a cockpit. But if crits are possible, reducing the damage wouldn't stop a 1 hit kill, so that makes sense.

I love getting headshots, but I'm one of those who thinks doing 200 damage to get a kill just means your aim sucks. I may not make as many cbills per kill due to that, but I make those earnings up in recon money, so it's all good to me.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 30 June 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

Having 17 points or less brings it to 42% chance for my Crab, or 49-54% for a Whale. A far cry from 17%.

And thus there is a lesson to be learned from that. Well, if you're paying attention to the details of the game mechanics anyway.

The problem is, as you said, many do not know said details. But that's my victim's problem, not mine.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 30 June 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

I enjoy getting a Gauss headshot to try for the 1 shot, then drop a strike if it didn't work. Almost guaranteed kill. Works the other way around as well.

Good my padawan, good. I welcome you to the dark side.

[YueFei]

Mcgral18, on 30 June 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

I've had weapons be destroyed and head ammo blown out when only a Strike could have done them...so I'll go with yes.


They also still deal 35 damage, which is enough to headshot on their own.



I enjoy getting a Gauss headshot to try for the 1 shot, then drop a strike if it didn't work. Almost guaranteed kill. Works the other way around as well.

I once leaned forward to try to shield my head hitbox from a strike, but then two shells landed on both back shoulders and blew out both SRM6 launchers.

I was sad.

Khobai, on 30 June 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

I didnt say it was easy. I said it shouldnt be possible to one shot mechs. Regardless of whether its easy or not is irrelevant. The fact remains nobody should be taken out of the game by a lucky shot. It adds absolutely nothing beneficial to the game and all it does is make someones play experience miserable.

And everyone knows theres cheaters out there taking full advantage of the fact you can one shot mechs. If you make headshotting less profitable then cheaters are less likely to try and cheat that way. Less cheating is a good thing. Why would you want to invite cheaters by having one hit kill mechanics? That makes no sense. And when this game goes live on steam there WILL be more cheaters.

Also that has nothing to do with the fact the way crits work needs to be fixed. Bonus internal structure damage from crits needs to be based on the actual damage done to internal structure rather than the damage value of the weapon. It makes no sense that a gauss rifle doing like 1 damage to internal structure gets to use its full 15 damage when calculating bonus damage for crits.

Even if you made headshots not instant kills, cheaters would still profit because they'd drop enemies in two shots to the face while everyone else is working hard to land their shots on the ST/CT/legs/crotch/whatever.

I understand you don't want head-shot instagibs in the game, but the line of argument about cheaters seems irrelevant to me.

Cheating should be stopped by other means, not by re-arranging your game balance, which still wouldn't prevent cheaters from profiting anyways.

Edited by YueFei, 30 June 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

I've learned it's hard to get a proper paperdoll fully loaded before blowing someone away with a headshot...added 5 to the achievement tonight, but only captured 3. Two have no paperdoll info at all...which makes them pointless to show...

Kinda annoyed...because I think one was a perfect example on an Atlas...too late to bother with it now. I might have to fix a PeaceDove up, to get those extra 3/9% with a TC1 and an AP to speed up target acquisition, combined with ATG, for a significant decrease in time. Feels bad having 10 wasted tons, though.



Looks like he had some damage, hard to tell just how much though.

Multiple headshots were had this round (though MGs don't count towards this goal)...but one issue



They die too fast for the screen to update. Also feel bad for ruining his fun.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 July 2015 - 12:03 AM.

[Pjwned]

Personally, dual gauss headshots don't bother me because they're rather hard to land and I tend to strip a dozen points (or more) of armor off the head anyways because it's hit so rarely, so whether or not the gauss rounds deal extra crit damage I'm dead anyways if that happens. I do think it's a little lame if crit RNG determines whether you live or not, but at least you know somebody made a rather difficult shot to hit your head. If we were to fix dual gauss headshots in any way, it should be done by fixing crit damage so that pinpoint weapons don't deal full crit damage despite going through armor first.

Artillery strikes are different because it takes no player skill whatsoever to place a strike within 50m of somebody and RNG instagib them in the cockpit regardless of how much armor they have there, and that does need to change. Of course, if artillery headshots didn't automatically kill you regardless of how much armor is on the cockpit then it would be a lot less of a problem, so if a strike consisted of 16 shells that do 25 damage each (400 damage total) then it would eliminate that problem while still doing major damage to any component hit. I would still think it's crappy to get RNG headshot by artillery like that and die because of it, due to me not really liking strikes much in the first place because I don't like how they're implemented, but at least having some recourse by putting enough armor on the head would make it a lot better.

Edited by Pjwned, 01 July 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I support triple Gauss

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mcgral18, on 30 June 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

I've learned it's hard to get a proper paperdoll fully loaded before blowing someone away with a headshot...added 5 to the achievement tonight, but only captured 3. Two have no paperdoll info at all...which makes them pointless to show...

Kinda annoyed...because I think one was a perfect example on an Atlas...too late to bother with it now. I might have to fix a PeaceDove up, to get those extra 3/9% with a TC1 and an AP to speed up target acquisition, combined with ATG, for a significant decrease in time. Feels bad having 10 wasted tons, though.



Looks like he had some damage, hard to tell just how much though.

Multiple headshots were had this round (though MGs don't count towards this goal)...but one issue



They die too fast for the screen to update. Also feel bad for ruining his fun.

Never feel bad for your enemy, next thing you know, you'll be holding shots because you feel TOO much empathy for them

Not that I'm worried about that with you McGral, Smoke Jaguars aren't known for being touchy feely types after all, touchy maybe, feely no..

[Joseph Mallan]

I'll see that Thunder Hawk and raise a Gausszilla!: