351 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

That would be ideal, but I'm not sure we'll get that.

It doesn't doesn't quite manage what I want.
Why should the Gauss, at over three times the max range, minimal heat, higher Dam/ton ammo crit better than it?

Along with over 3 times the velocity, at the same time.

I'm of the mind that the Gauss should not be good a Critting, just at Killing (which is certainly is)



This is among the reasons no one takes you seriously.

Other than being a dumb ***, of course

In fairness, your headshot historonics aren't doing your any favors in this thread. Most of Your posts are much more dispassionate and objective. This whole thread unfortunately fails on that front.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nightmare1, on 09 April 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

...Aaaand there's the attitude again. I always find it interesting how willing some people are to cuss others out for not agreeing with them, even when the person who is doing the disagreeing is affable enough not to treat them so poorly.

Listen kid, you can't get all upset when someone disagrees with you, particularly when they call you out for general statements that are not generally true. Here's the bottomline: Headshots are very rare in MWO. As such, dual-shot cockpit kills are not an important item on anyone's (except yours) grocery list of problems to fix in MWO. In fact, most folks would say that taking two Gauss to the head and dying is appropriate given the Lore and the fact that the cockpit is really just thick glass inside an armored shroud.



As for nerfing the Gauss, very few people want to see that happen again. The Gauss has been one of the most maligned weapons in the game, being repeatedly nerfed until it is nothing more than a specialist's weapon. It can't even really fulfill its role as per the Lore now. It is strictly a sniper rifle, for all intents and purposes, but lacks the punch to be a serious threat. It explodes when critted, something that is very easy to trigger. In fact, when I do meet Mechs with Gauss Rifles, I typically just punch out that component and let the Gauss explosion do the rest of the kill job for me. If they have C.A.S.E., then I have to put a few more shots into them, but they're usually too banged up by that time to fight back effectively.

Gauss is only effective if you have a team that will work to protect their sniper. Even then, it fails if the enemy team is better at breaking a firing line. Case in point, my own Unit specializes in brawling. We don't do well in forming or holding firing lines. However, we're very good at breaking them. We push in, taking the hits and sacrificing a pilot in the process, then demolish the enemy Mechs in a hectic brawl. Your terrifying Gauss sniper gets swallowed up by pilots like us, because we don't give him the room he needs to be effective, while PGI has made certain that his firing rate is too slow to have a threatening DPS.

You're a special member of a special club of maybe four people that think the Gauss needs another nerf to fix a problem that most of the people on this thread have told you is a non-issue. Insult me all you want, but it won't change reality for you. You're delusional, which is why so many people on this thread can't take you seriously.

Step back and actually look at your argument for a moment. You claim that Gauss crits are too good, making headshots too easy for you as well as for people in general. Later, you claim that headshots are an act of RNG. You're contradicting yourself; either they're too easy for you to get, or you're just plain lucky. Either the Gauss is OP, or it just has OP dice rolls, but you can't stick with one argument. Caught in that, you try to expand the argument to include all forms of crits by Gauss Rifles. You ignore the fact that PGI has repeatedly said that they want the Gauss to be a specialty sniping weapon. A quick gander at nearly any other combat game would acquaint you with the fact that most sniper class weapons are freakishly powerful, yet incredibly slow to fire and not at all good at close quarters. PGI, rather than increase the damage per round for Gauss to make it a powerful sniping weapon, decided that the crits were good enough that it didn't need to do so. Sniper DPS in this game is incredibly low, but they can, on occasion, get lucky and crit something. It makes them a tad bit more effective to have.

Check these vids out for examples of sniping in other games. In each case, the rifle in question is powerful and has high crit chances. In fact, I would say that both the power and the crits are better than for our own Gauss Rifle.

Ghost Recon: Phantoms - most of these are torso hits.




Planetside 2 - Headshots and torsos.


Crysis: Head and torsos.


Star Wars: Republic Commandos - Head and torsos.


My own Mass Effect 3 - Head and torsos:



I could post more, but why bother? The point, is that MWO's "sniper class" weapon, the Gauss Rifle, is incredibly underpowered compared to most other, comparable weapons from other shooter games. Frankly, I think that the Gauss DPS is a little low, but that the weapon is in a good spot otherwise. It doesn't need a crit nerf just because you think it does.



I think that's the point most folks are trying to make, but that Mcgral just won't accept.

Gauss headshot kills just aren't that common.

I think this video is a better capture of the headshot phenomenon:

While gauss head shots are indeed so rare as to be a statistical anomaly, and not worth the energy it took to write the OP,. I would disagree about your characterization of the gauss' worth. In high end matches it's still bloody effective and common.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 April 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

In fairness, your headshot historonics aren't doing your any favors in this thread. Most of Your posts are much more dispassionate and objective. This whole thread unfortunately fails on that front.

You can sub Cockpit with AC20 in this case as well, both require the 2 Crits.
Although AC20 would only happen 83-100% of the time, due to the potential 2 crit buffers (while the head does not have that particular chance)

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 April 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

The attitude is from your blatant trolling.

It's hard not to troll on a thread that practically begs for it. Besides, for each trollish post, I provided two or three pointing out the error in your thinking as well as providing evidence for why you were in error.

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

The Gauss is not a bad weapon. It's not the best in the game anymore, but has been, at multiple points in the game. Saying it's bad is an outright lie.

Before accusing people of lying, a rather dastardly and highly offensive accusation if I do say so myself, you should read the entirety of their posts and use both halves of your brain to evaluate what they're saying. I never said it was a bad weapon. I said it was a specialist's weapon and that it was underpowered compared to comparable weapons from other shooter games. I also pointed out that a dedicated team of brawlers could overcome a team with a Gauss sniper. Please do not put words in my mouth and then accuse me of underhandedness.

I happen to have a Unit buddy who is an amazing sniper. We dueled on HPG Manifold and Mining Collective several times and he won nearly ever single match. He had just enough speed to keep away from my brawler long enough to pick me apart, as a sniper should. My protest has been that, in a team environment, the sniper Mech has a harder time making an impact. Sniping on Caustic Vally isn't easy due to the terrain. Mining Collective is another map that only has a couple good sniping points. Frozen City doesn't help snipers much either. My point, is not that the Gauss is bad, but that it needs a slight buff rather than a major nerf. I know that PGI wants it to be a specialist's weapon, but Gauss is so iconic that I would rather see it capable of being used by everyone, rather than just a handful who have the propensity to be snipers.

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

I want to give it a unique characteristic, of being BAD as a Crit weapon, and touch nothing else.

Making a weapon "bad" at something (your words, not mine) is not the proper method of making it unique. That's a bit like saying I could make your car unique by slashing its tires. It's a misnomer at best. You should also not nerf the power of a weapon with so low a DPS without buffing it in some manner to compensate. Faster firing times, or a longer hold time for the charge up would be, I think, adequate trade-offs.

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Not exclusive to headshots, which is all you're fixating on.

Well, that was the point of your OP before you started wandering. Should I have gone off the trail and into the bushes after you?

Bishop Steiner, on 09 April 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

While gauss head shots are indeed so rare as to be a statistical anomaly, and not worth the energy it took to write the OP,. I would disagree about your characterization of the gauss' worth. In high end matches it's still bloody effective and common.

Again, I never said that it was bad, just that it was underpowered now. I do maintain that it's a rare sight. I've seen about five or six dual Gauss Mechs post-nerf. I still see some single-Gauss Mechs, but the dual Gauss has largely gone by the wayside in the Group Queue. PPCs, ironically, are more common though.

I do not play CW very often, so it may be that Gauss is still common in that game mode. It would fit better there anyways given the longer fields of fire.

[Imperius]

Gauss hasn't been good since the charge mechanic. You know how many more head shots i'd have if I could fire when the opportunity was there?

You know why I don't have those head shots because someone cried wolf.

Edit: My god that was bad English... Not sure if auto correct fail or BAL

Edited by Imperius, 09 April 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Imperius, on 09 April 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Gauss hasn't been good since the charge mechanic. You know how many more head shot did have if I could fire when the opportunity was there?

You know why I don't have those head shots because someone cried wolf.

You liked 1200M/s Goose rounds?
Because that's what they were before the charge.


The charge made them powerful 2KM/s long range machines. Even after the cooldown nerf, they are good.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

You liked 1200M/s Goose rounds?
Because that's what they were before the charge.


The charge made them powerful 2KM/s long range machines. Even after the cooldown nerf, they are good.

And their use among tier 1,2 and comp players suggests they were far from bad. They almost touted the line with the last cool down nerf, but even then were just mediocre, not bad. After they adjusted that again, bam, suddenly the massagers, gausswolves and gauss/vomit combos returned in force.

I'd say gauss is fine as is, even if ac10/20s suit my play style better.

Mind you, we could remove the mechanic, but only if you put them to about 8 heat?, And probably extend the cool down again. Otherwise they simply obsolete all hvy autocannon which is dumb.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 April 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Gauss is absolutely not underpowered now. I'd argue it's finally balanced according to the design: that is, it's balanced as a long range sniping weapon, not a brawling and knife fighting weapon. The low DPS doesn't matter: if you're looking for DPS weapons, we have much lighter autocannons.

But the Gauss fires very far at extremely high speed, making it exceptionally dangerous and - as is the point of this thread - it's also one of the best crit weapons in the game.

The Gauss rifle excels at doing heavy damage at long range, and crippling it's targets. Since the cooldown nerf, it's nowhere near as good as it was up close in a brawl, and that's a good thing. With higher DPS and faster cycling the Gauss rifle was a very strong mid range weapon due to high damage and no heat. Now, you can use it up close, but there are much better options there.

This can make the Gauss rifle worse for a given players application, but given that the Gauss rifle being the preeminent ballistic in EVERY situation for most of MWO's history, I for one am glad that it's been put into a more focused role.

Now, you don't just take Gauss for your ballistic slots, you have to weigh what you intend to be doing in a match and how well (or not) it will complement your build.

Makes ballistic builds much more interesting, and makes autocannons more useful relatively speaking.

Particularly as a clan player. With hot weapons overall, the pre-nerf Gauss was the only ballistic really usable by most mechs. Now, you need to think about it.

[Imperius]

It's still not a good sniper weapon for the fact snipers wait for the perfect opportunity to shoot. Right now we see the target in our sights and go, well let's put the ammo in the gun now.

I'd accept the charge more if you could pre-charge it.

Sure it's still effective and good but far removed from what it's actually supposed to function for.

[Nightmare1]

Imperius, on 09 April 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

It's still not a good sniper weapon for the fact snipers wait for the perfect opportunity to shoot. Right now we see the target in our sights and go, well let's put the ammo in the gun now.

I'd accept the charge more if you could pre-charge it.

Sure it's still effective and good but far removed from what it's actually supposed to function for.

This. I would agree with Bishop and Winter regarding Gauss balance right now if we could pre-charge the weapon. No sniper ever sits there and watches for an enemy to show himself, and then decides to load/charge his gun to fire.

In my opinion, we should be able to charge the rifle and hold the charge. If the Gauss is critted while charged, it explodes. If it is critted while uncharged, it does not explode. This, to me, is the only sensible way to implement a charge mechanic. It wouldn't change much for gameplay either; it would simply mean that snipers get one, first-shot. That's one of the main points to being a sniper, so it's sensible. Subsequent shots would need to be reloaded and then charge, making for a long interval in between rounds. This makes the Gauss more realistic and useful without buffing it to the point of being OP. If this were implemented, I would be willing to see its crit modifier reduced as a trade-off.

[Imperius]

Nightmare1, on 09 April 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

This. I would agree with Bishop and Winter regarding Gauss balance right now if we could pre-charge the weapon. No sniper ever sits there and watches for an enemy to show himself, and then decides to load/charge his gun to fire.

In my opinion, we should be able to charge the rifle and hold the charge. If the Gauss is critted while charged, it explodes. If it is critted while uncharged, it does not explode. This, to me, is the only sensible way to implement a charge mechanic. It wouldn't change much for gameplay either; it would simply mean that snipers get one, first-shot. That's one of the main points to being a sniper, so it's sensible. Subsequent shots would need to be reloaded and then charge, making for a long interval in between rounds. This makes the Gauss more realistic and useful without buffing it to the point of being OP. If this were implemented, I would be willing to see its crit modifier reduced as a trade-off.

I'll keep the crit oh and in before the macro rebuttals..

[Wintersdark]

I'd like to see holding a charge, too, less for a balance reason than purely quality of life. It's annoying to charge, have it discharge, charge again... Not balance, just annoying.

It's less a balance reason mostly because with that change, once you've charged the Gauss Rifle, you've spent that ammo. You can't just discharge it anymore: You're committed to firing.


But as to the "Snipers wait for an opponent to reveal themselves..." line, mechs are not men with sniper rifles. It's OK for things to work differently. After all, in MWO, no would be sniper is going to stand still just waiting for a good shot - that's a great way to get yourself killed. No ghilly suits, no invisibility to sensors (ECM notwithstanding) It's OK for "sniper" gameplay in MWO to be different from "sniper" gameplay in some random shooter - hell, it should be different. Just not a very good argument, even if I do agree you should be able to hold the charge.

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

You liked 1200M/s Goose rounds?
Because that's what they were before the charge.


The charge made them powerful 2KM/s long range machines. Even after the cooldown nerf, they are good.

Wait, wait, wait, I read a post somewhere back there that makes be beg the questions:

McGral, how long you been playing?

What's your headshot count?

Saying it's "easy" because you occasionally accidentally get a headshot when not trying is absolutely stupid, if you're "so good" at ALWAYS getting your headshots, I assume you've already completed guillotine, and death star.

Anyway, the gauss is a good weapon and it needs some sort of buff, but I'm honestly not sure what.

It's an extremely large and heavy BOMB that you strap to your 'mech in the hopes that you can utilize it sufficiently well enough before some jackass spits at it and causes it to blow up and disable/kill you.

It's the ONLY weapon that is limited to firing a maximum of two.
It's the ONLY weapon with a charge up cycle.
It's the ONLY weapon with a 90% explosion chance.
It's the ONLY weapon where if you're IS, running an XL and that weapon gives you 95% probability you'll be dead at the end of the game.

McGral, this WHOLE thing started about being totally against being one shotted, then you changed it to a full on ***** about gauss.

You can be one shot killed by lasers, PPCs, and boated AC5's and above, but you don't give **** about them, you're pissed at the gauss and express your unreasonable, unwarranted prejudice here.

[FupDup]

I feel that this would be a good opportunity to repeat myself from earlier:

FupDup, on 06 April 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'm not declaring whether I want or don't want this mechanic to remain, but what I do think is that it would be funny to remove it for the SINGLE purpose of trolling Graven and nothing else.

[Mcgral18]

Dimento Graven, on 09 April 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

Wait, wait, wait, I read a post somewhere back there that makes be beg the questions:

McGral, how long you been playing?

What's your headshot count?

Saying it's "easy" because you occasionally accidentally get a headshot when not trying is absolutely stupid, if you're "so good" at ALWAYS getting your headshots, I assume you've already completed guillotine, and death star.

Anyway, the gauss is a good weapon and it needs some sort of buff, but I'm honestly not sure what.

It's an extremely large and heavy BOMB that you strap to your 'mech in the hopes that you can utilize it sufficiently well enough before some jackass spits at it and causes it to blow up and disable/kill you.

It's the ONLY weapon that is limited to firing a maximum of two.
It's the ONLY weapon with a charge up cycle.
It's the ONLY weapon with a 90% explosion chance.
It's the ONLY weapon where if you're IS, running an XL and that weapon gives you 95% probability you'll be dead at the end of the game.

McGral, this WHOLE thing started about being totally against being one shotted, then you changed it to a full on ***** about gauss.

You can be one shot killed by lasers, PPCs, and boated AC5's and above, but you don't give **** about them, you're pissed at the gauss and express your unreasonable, unwarranted prejudice here.

I've been playing longer than you.

165 headshots in, two tonight, with the Gauss.

I never said it was easy, just that it was possible (as seen).


Gauss does not need a buff.
30 damage from two, with a 2KM/s travel speed is very generous, for all of 2 points of heat.

A change to explosions? Maybe, but not only explosive if charging, that's FAR too lenient. 5 seconds after removing it from the weapon groups? That's more like it.

[Dimento Graven]

FupDup, on 09 April 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

I feel that this would be a good opportunity to repeat myself from earlier:

Fup, your father, elderberries...

[ArmandTulsen]

Wintersdark, on 09 April 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

dude, McGral IS the OP.

Doesn't change anything.

I said the Gauss doesn't need a nerf, to which he replied saying I don't think it's a good weapon...

wut

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

I've been playing longer than you.

165 headshots in, two tonight, with the Gauss.

I never said it was easy, just that it was possible (as seen).


Gauss does not need a buff.
30 damage from two, with a 2KM/s travel speed is very generous, for all of 2 points of heat.

A change to explosions? Maybe, but not only explosive if charging, that's FAR too lenient. 5 seconds after removing it from the weapon groups? That's more like it.

You can only have been playing longer than I have by a few months, at most. I was closed beta too, y'know.

All this "extra" playing time you've got on me and you STILL only have 165. Dude, seriously keep at it, play a dual gauss build for months at a time and maybe you'll start seeing all the EXTRA little 'leeway' PGI has put into this game.

My favorite is if I get two headshots in under an hour or so, the hit detection and convergence seems to suddenly get very wonky for a few hours. Sitting there having to pour 4 gauss into UAVs, or having my gauss rounds end up hitting on either side of the target 50% of the time.

It's laughable, but you use 'em enough, match after match after match after match, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Also, as if your length of play should indicate that you're maybe somehow have a more considered opinion of the gauss (considering the gauss was introduced AFTER we both started playing, that's a bit presumptuous I think), or... what?

And, considering at some point long after (6 months, a year maybe) the inception of the achievements I actually started "trying" to get headshots and I still haven't completed the guillotine, and there are literally thousands of players, who have been playing as long as either of us that haven't gotten their first 10 yet, it all equals: You're complaining about a NON-issue.

And , no, absolutely the gauss should NEVER explode while not charged, period.

By the very phrasing/language you've used, you've made it apparent you want to "punish" gauss users.

You fail to consider that most other weapons with their MUCH higher firing rate, EXTREMELY BETTER boatability actually have FAR more 'crit' chances than a gauss does.

Again, you can only fire 2 gauss at a time, but you can fire any number of lasers, missiles, and ballistics you want, each round/pulse having its own chance to crit.

Considering the weapon itself blows up 90% of the time internals are exposed, the paltry crit chance each round gets is not even close to balancing that equation.

[Mcgral18]

Dimento Graven, on 09 April 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

You fail to consider that most other weapons with their MUCH higher firing rate, EXTREMELY BETTER boatability actually have FAR more 'crit' chances than a gauss does.

Again, you can only fire 2 gauss at a time, but you can fire any number of lasers, missiles, and ballistics you want, each round/pulse having its own chance to crit.

Considering the weapon itself blows up 90% of the time internals are exposed, the paltry crit chance each round gets is not even close to balancing that equation.

This is the fallacy of "Crit Weapons"

You don't want CHANCES to Crit, you want to DESTROY the item. Gauss will destroy all but one item in a single Crit, the AC20. Engine (at 15), Gauss (5), ECM(3) and everything else in the game (10) will be destroyed 42-50% of the time when a Gauss hits Structure.

AC5s? 17% chance to roll 2 Crits, which may or may not hit the same location.
LBx pellets? FIVE need to hit the SAME ITEM. That's why it's **** at Crits.


This isn't punishing Gauss Users, it's stepping it down as the best Crit weapon in the game.

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

...

This isn't punishing Gauss Users, it's stepping it down as the best Crit weapon in the game.

Why?