94 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

1453 R, on 29 June 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

Pwned: the Origins 'Mechs being brutal and unrelenting engines of devastation also happens to be speculation. They're nearly six months out. A lot can happen between then and now.

It's not speculation that Battlemechs with clan tech would be exceptionally good unless some real changes happen, and while I don't think everybody is screaming they will absolutely be "brutal and unrelenting engines of devastation," there is cause to be concerned.

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As for leaving OmniMechs out in the cold...well, as much as it would bother me, a goodly portion of the forum seems to've been screaming for the Clans to be rendered nigh unplayably bad since..well, since Wave I dropped. This latest balance pass will be pushed out "when the community is happy with it", and The Community is predominantly a bunch of Spheroids who want the game to be permanently stuck at 3025, many of whom would be totally okay with removing all Clan gear from the game without compensation for its previous owners.

Now that's just nonsense, aside from the occasional excessive whine that is quickly shot down, people on the forums have largely clamored for changes like an actual penalty for losing 20% of your cXL engine on side torso destruction or proper weapon balance as well as plenty of people campaigning for lower tier clan omnimechs to be not as bad by making certain upgrade options not completely useless or even--a recent example that actually happened--useless flamers being removed as fixed equipment, so if you claim a "goodly portion of the forum" wants clans to be nerfed into uselessness then that's a load of crap and I'm not going to take you very seriously.

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Yeah, I'm just a twitch nervous over what you guys are going to do to my 'Mechs. No, I don't think there's a chance in hell I'm going to get to pilot a Jenner IIC that is actually good. Frankly, I'm surprised I'm going to get a crack at Arctic Cheetahs that aren't garbage. I don't anticipate it will last long.

I don't know about you, but having a battlemech with access to clan tech sounds pretty good to me, and other than wild speculation I (currently) have no reason to see why it won't be at least decent.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 June 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

1453 R, on 29 June 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

The real tooth-grinder is that all of this is basically because Spheroids don't have any of their goodies yet.

If this was a hundred years into the timeline's future? Nobody would bother with Clans, even with Clan gear in straight-from-TT form. Not when the Sphere has seventeen varieties of PPC, MMLs, MRMs, rotary everythings, Heavy everythings, Light everythings, VSPLs, at least three stealth systems the Clans never come close to parity on...

Heck, even ten measly years gives the Inner Sphere everything they need to hit back with. Frankly, as soon as MRMs hit the game us Clan-side folks are done. Nothing can really compare to stuffing forty tubes of death into a single hardpoint. Jenner IICs will not really be worrisome whatsoever when the Oxide can do three MRM-10s instead. Or worse.

It's not quite that cut-and-dry, man.

The MML and MRM together act as the IS equivalent of the ATM. The MML is lighter than the ATM, while the MRM is the same weight. For any given weight, the ATM offers greater damage potential. The ATM nearly obsoletes the C-SRM and it makes even IS SRM look under-powered. What 9 tons of SRM6 do, you can manage with 7 in a single ATM-12. The MRM40 can't even compete with that. In real-world effect, it'll probably end up a wash among the three systems..

All of those PPC variants are trying to be the C-ERPPC, but the closest they get is a standard ERPPC with a PPC capacitor making it both hotter and heavier as well as taking more slots on 'Mechs that don't really have slots to spare once you add in 3-slot DHS, 14-slot Endo, and either XLEs or LFEs. A pair of Light PPC gives the IS 10 damage for 6 tons and range between standard and ER, but occupies an extra slot and has a 90 m minimum firing range. Snub nose is a PPC AC/10 almost exactly, but has the same weight and size characteristics of a C-ERPPC. Heavy PPC is just a bad choice on everything but the largest 'Mechs, weighing 10 tons, taking 4 slots, having the same range characteristics as a standard PPC, and dealing 15 heat for 15 damage. A quartet of LPPC will probably become the ideal set-up; I know that's what I'd put on my Blackjack.

Clans get RACs and, with the exception of slot requirements, they are better than IS RACs. Clans also get ProtoMech ACs, which are lighter than LACs and can be mounted on normal 'Mechs. 3.5 ton AC/2? Where do I sign?

Clans get those awesome-looking Heavy Lasers, and the IS never come close to truly matching Clan pulse lasers. X-Pulse are too hot and both they and the VS Pulse are too short-ranged. VS-PL are also too heavy. Forget about C-ER Pulse, those are in a class all their own. The X-Pulse might be marginally handy on 'Mechs that can get enough cooling due to lack of hard-points or excess tonnage, but the VS look like they'll be terrible without a significant damage bump.

Clans and IS both get tiny Gauss rifles; MagShot and AP Gauss, respectively. The latter is superior. Heavy Gauss is pretty awesome, but so is Hyper Assault Gauss. PGI would have to make it fire those rounds over a period greater than one second to make the HAG really suck next to the HG, and I don't think they'd do that. The high velocity will help a lot. The size of the HG makes mounting difficult on smaller 'Mechs. Grid Iron without any lasers is the smallest, maybe? That'll get you 4 tons of ammo on a STD235, or 24 rounds if we keep it at 150 damage/ton.

IS gets HV ACs, but they are sort of terrible at 12 tons for a mere HV-AC/5. I guess they could sort of stand-in as a really anaemic C-Gauss, but there's also that slightly less anemic L Gauss to compete with. I'd not mount one for any reason other than amusement. HVAC/2 could be super annoying on a map like Alpine. If we had more maps of that scale, then I could see HV-AC carving out a niche for themselves.

[FatYak]

That jenner looks like a clanner's oxide..... thats scary

[Vxheous]

Only in MWO are Clan garrison battlemechs more formidable than Clan front-line Omni's

[FupDup]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 29 June 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Only in MWO are Clan garrison battlemechs more formidable than Clan front-line Omni's

Actually, even in BT, some of the "second line" mechs were better optimized than the "frontline" Omnimechs. For example, look at the Rifleman IIC, Commando IIC, etc...

[Kristov Kerensky]

1453 R, on 29 June 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

"Oxide Quirks:
LA: +16 Armor
RA: +16 Armor
CT: +30 Armor
LL +24 Armor
RL: +24 Armor

LA: +1 missile hardpoint. This is an experimental new quirk type which causes the first weapon of a given classification equipped to a location to not count against that location's hardpoint count.
RA: +1 missile hardpoint. This is an experimental new quirk type which causes the first weapon of a given classification equipped to a location to not count against that location's hardpoint count.
Max Speed +10%
SRM-2/4/6 Cooldown: +30%
Missile Cooldown: +30%
SRM-2/4/6 Range: +30%
Missile Range: +30%
Missile Heat Generation: -25%
SRM-2/4/6 Spread: -50%"

There ya go. Oxide is competitive, and will in fact pretty much just wreck the Jenner IIC pretty much 100% of the time. As well as every Fatlas, Manshee, and Dire Whale it decides it wants gone.

Especially after you folks manage to get the entirety of the Origins pack cut down to three hardpoints per chassis across all sixteen variants. Edit the stock loadout at all?, even for something like armor redistribution? "Chassis Invalid: please unequip invalid weapons."

Quirks don't add hardpoints, so what makes you think they'll suddenly do that? Russ even specifically mentions that hardpoints aren't being touched, the new balancing system is JUST about quirks, so you are truly pulling things out of thin air to try and back up a point we already know PGI has a horrible record on.

Hey man, I'm usually one of the white knights, but in this case, I can't be, this is exactly what was discussed when Clan BattleMechs were talked about, the options that restrict Omni's on their potential power are removed and can only be limited by HARDPOINTS, so PGI needs to make damn sure they limit them to the actual canon number and NOT INFLATE THEM.

So what does PGI do? Double them.

[Y E O N N E]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 29 June 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Only in MWO are Clan garrison battlemechs more formidable than Clan front-line Omni's

Being an OmniMech doesn't mean anything to combat performance. All being an OmniMech does is make it faster and cheaper to swap out equipment. That's it. That's the whole schtick. In terms of maintenance and upgrades, that's amazing, but it doesn't mean a hoot to killing ability.

If we had repair/re-arm and if upgrading a 'Mech took time, Omnis would be very desirable.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 29 June 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Note that in TT, most of the IS "advanced" tech was still inferior to Clan invasion-era tech.


MMLs: Significantly Inferior to ATMs, they also have fewer tube counts too

VSPLs and XPLs: Vastly inferior to Clan regular Pulse Lasers

Heavy and Light PPCs: Trying to imitate the mighty Clan ERPPC, failed at it (but in MWO, since it's not 15 damage they might have a chance)

Rotary ACs: Clans made their own, too, just being 1 critslot larger for some odd reason

MRMs: In TT they tried to mimic the damage-per-ton of Clan LRMs but failed, but with MWO's LRM mechanics I guess Clan LRMs wouldn't be superior to MRMs like TT

Light Gauss: Mediocre, 8 damage for 12 tons and a tiny range boost over Clan Gauss

Light ACs: Mirrored by Clan Protomech ACs, which are slightly better at it

Magshots: Inferior to AP Gauss

etc.


However, with MWO being MWO, I guess that PGI could make that IS fancy tech actually compete if they wanted to. Keywords "if they wanted to..."

You forgot Heavy Gauss, ERPPCs with capacitors, and a few other trinkets that are at par, or better, than existing clan tech.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 29 June 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

You forgot Heavy Gauss, ERPPCs with capacitors, and a few other trinkets that are at par, or better, than existing clan tech.

But I didn't. And they never exceed par; the Heavy Gauss is merely par with the HAG-40 even if the latter fires in a stream, and the PPCs are all inferior. Oh, sure, we can run cooler, but IS can never do the same damage with the same heat at the same ranges with the same amount of cooling, same speed, and same armor unless you build your Clan 'Mech in a deliberately gimped fashion.

Even the sh*t recently invented in the Inner Sphere is inferior to the Clan versions; Clans get better RACs, what the hell is up with that?

[Greenjulius]

I'm excited as the next guy for new robots. Really, I am as neutral as it gets when it comes to Clan/IS balance. I want the playing field to be level and fun.

The problem these mechs introduce is massive power creep. Dual gauss 50 tonners, massive alpha SRM 35 tonners, etc. We DON'T NEED faster time to kill. It's already bad, and gets worse with each newly released metamech or outrageous quirk.

Positive quirks should not have been so far reaching. Only the worst performers should be quirked, like Awesome's barn door chassis, or the crappiest lolcust varieties. They just went about it in the wrong way, and now gameplay is suffering for it. Mechs that performed too well just needed nerfed a little, and more if they continued to dominate everything else.

Sadly, we have a very vocal number of community members who don't care, and just want an edge for a few months over people who didn't buy the pack. Then once they are out for c-bills, they get their nerfs, or another mech gets god-tier buffs, and people move on until the next pack. The result is continued power creep and degrading gameplay.

[Juodas Varnas]

FatYak, on 29 June 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

That jenner looks like a clanner's oxide..... thats scary

Clanner Oxide, but with 7 jumpjets (as opposed to none), 6 missile hardpoints (as opposed to 4), Clan XL engines (as opposed to ****** IS engines) and 50% lighter weight Clan SRMs.

Better in every single POSSIBLE way.
******* PGI........

[FatYak]

Juodas Varnas, on 29 June 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

Clanner Oxide, but with 7 jumpjets (as opposed to none), 6 missile hardpoints (as opposed to 4), Clan XL engines (as opposed to ****** IS engines) and 50% lighter weight Clan SRMs.

Better in every single POSSIBLE way.
******* PGI........

Yeah, i remember the arguments over why the opxide should have no JJ's

And yet here we are....

You just know PGI are going to make a mess of this.....

[Ghogiel]

Dingo Red, on 29 June 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

An alternative is to be positive and consider that PGI isn't the same as they were many moons ago, and will take into account the consequences of what they're releasing before the release it.

No need to be irrational. Another position is magic elves will come in to PGIs offices at night and make balance changes, fix UI, make CW good, add collisions etc. Then PGI can come back in and do what they do best, which is make cool mechs and sell them in grab deal packs to neckbeards. (fwiw I'm going to be hunch IIC paying to win)

[Joseph Mallan]

I am so (a la Carte) pre ordering the Orion IIC Friday. Now Leonidas (Wolf) will be properly represented in my Bays!

[Kristov Kerensky]

1453 R, another reason quirks won't add hardpoint is the actual work required to add hardpoints to a Mech.

The model has to be redone for the additional hardpoint to be placed on it, animations redone to account for it, and skin/camo/textures all have to be redone to account for the added hardpoint, takes a lot of time, work and isn't easy by any means.

Quirks are a line of code, quick, easy, simple.

Huge difference there, quirks only change already established math, hardpoints require model, animation and texture changes. PGI isn't going to change the quirk system to add hardpoints because that's not something you can do with a line of code, which is all quirks are.

[Revis Volek]

Greenjulius, on 29 June 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

This kind of sickens me. If the mechs had the same number of hardpoints as their IS counterparts, I'd be more likely to accept it. However, the combo of the following makes this hard to take:

1.) Clan XL - Need I say more?
2.) Clan Weapons - weigh less, more damage, more range
3.) Fully min/max capable - now you aren't limited to the single engine choice, and you can't complain about being "forced" into Clan XL, because you can STD as much as you want.
4.) MORE HARDPOINTS - WHY? This makes zero sense. Clan weapons already do more damage per hardpoint than IS weapons. Did these mechs really need more hardpoints?

Up to this point, power creep has been somewhat subtle. An extra hardpoint here, a better designed overall mech there. This straight up just make the four IS counterparts inferior. I only own Jenners out of the group, but this Jenner IIC is so much better in every regard that it's an insult to Oxide owners.

They really need to explain why it even makes sense to own any of the old mechs. I want to hear more information on the limitations of this new crop of power creeping mechs.

This crap is making time to kill shorter and shorter with each new wave, and it's destroying the previously unique gameplay. We are getting too close to having Mech of Duty rather than Mechwarrior.

Why it makes sense to own the old IS mechs right now is for CW, IS player will not be able to use IIC mechs in CW. But i also hope its balanced so that the JR7 is capable of taking on a JR7-IIC in a even fight.

[Kristov Kerensky]

DarthRevis, on 30 June 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Why it makes sense to own the old IS mechs right now is for CW, IS player will not be able to use IIC mechs in CW. But i also hope its balanced so that the JR7 is capable of taking on a JR7-IIC in a even fight.

A JR7 isn't a match for a JR7 IIC WITHOUT the hardpoint inflation, the Clan Tech makes that an uneven match before anything else is factored in.

With the doubled hardpoints, forget about it, the already more powerful JR7 IIC is now 2x as deadly.

[panther5511]

Why don't the IIC mechs have any quirks?

[Mcgral18]

panther5511, on 19 December 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

Why don't the IIC mechs have any quirks?

Because they were set to be quite good.

Previous Powercreep caused this powercreep to...be rather minimal, truth be told.
Finally broke 1k damage in the IIC (O) Hunch. Even had 3 acceptable games.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

But I didn't. And they never exceed par; the Heavy Gauss is merely par with the HAG-40 even if the latter fires in a stream, and the PPCs are all inferior. Oh, sure, we can run cooler, but IS can never do the same damage with the same heat at the same ranges with the same amount of cooling, same speed, and same armor unless you build your Clan 'Mech in a deliberately gimped fashion.

Even the sh*t recently invented in the Inner Sphere is inferior to the Clan versions; Clans get better RACs, what the hell is up with that?

ERPPC + Capacitor is same heat, same damage, same range...?

IS Plasma Cannon is actually better *outright* than the clan version too...

Plus the clans never get the equivalent of the MRM40...ever...

panther5511, on 19 December 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

Why don't the IIC mechs have any quirks?

Because everyone says clans are OP...so it surely must be true... /s

PGI believes it...of course, they use CW to get "balance data" even though all the top organized units are always clans in those events...but what does skill actually matter in a skill based game...right?