60 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Anyone who argues that Hunchbacks aren't superquirked need only look at the fact that Hunchbacks, of one sort or another, make up fully half of the Sphere medium queue at any given time.

When was the last time any of you saw a Shadow Hawk, outside the Grey Death during its weekend?

Does anyone here even remember what Cicadas look like?

Anyways. On the original topic...well, if the game's condition as it exists now was still going to be more-or-less the case on December 15th, we'd have a debate to get into. As it stands, Piranha's going to be flipping the table over the next few months, and part of that is inevitably going to be the Clans taking it 100% in the pants. Any positive quirk any Clan 'mech has ever had is gone, and if any of our gear remains remotely useful after the New Balance ships, it'll only be because they needed to ship in time for Steam and didn't have a chance to obliterate quite everything.

That will, of course, handily take care of these IIC 'Mechs any any concerns of Oh Pee-ness.

[ColdPsyker1]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 June 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

Yes, the Hunchback, Metaoverlords of MWO.

Quiet Bishop, don't let the forums know that!

Let my Hunchies have their awesome!

[Moldur]

First off, I love the Orion. No matter how much it sucks, it's awesome and has netted me many 500, 600, 700+ damage games and beyond. The Orion's primary downfall is its shape and hardpoint placement. It's tall, big, and has low hardpoints. It's also somewhat slow if you want to equip any amount of ammo. What I will say is that it's pretty excellent when it comes to open brawling. The Ungainly Orion suddenly becomes the Harbinger of Death in open confrontation. With an AC20 and other armaments, I'm usually delivering a cool ~45 damage alpha pinpoint to the CT 4-5 times before overheating which is more than excessive to kill most opponents.

Speculating on the IIC, it'll have extra weight which means more ammo, bigger missiles maybe, and pulse lasers in place of regular laser if you so desire. Alternatively you could sacrifice these benefits and give yourself a loadout similar to an original Orion, but give yourself a bigger engine or run it cooler (Orion is pretty cool-running already). Despite these benefits, it'll still have the major drawback of the Orion, which is its shape.

I don't know how else to put it really, it's not going to be a different mech from the Orion. It's just going to be a better Orion... a Clan modified Version 2 Orion, if you will.

[Wildstreak]

Its gonna be a bigger Orion from the looks of it, easier to hit.

ColdPsyker1, on 30 June 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

Quiet Bishop, don't let the forums know that!

Let my Hunchies have their awesome!

You bringing the Awesome into this fight?

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FupDup, on 29 June 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

The Jenny IIC will significantly outdamage most Firestarter builds, and easily outrange it, while slightly outrunning it. Also much higher hardpoints (sniping/poking). The one advantage of the FS-9 is not having a gigantic CT hitbox.

The Onion's issue to me always seemed to be that it had to choose between having a slow STD engine or using an XL but being kinda easy to sidecore. Clan XL solves that. I think that it would put up a fight against the current 3 good Clan heavies (HBR, TBR, EBJ), even if not beating them.

The Highlander IIC just gets a bunch of firepower added to it, and a bit more survivability. Obviously won't compete with the Whale, but then again neither can the other assaults...

The Hunchie IIC I expect to be a pretty good medium, maybe not beating the SCR or uberquirked IS Hunchie but it'll still be capable and beat most of the rest of the mediums.


Negative quirks are unknown at this point, can't really predict those.

Thunderous powercreep aside, I'm happy because this will add some more variety to the clans. The less storm crows I see the more fun the game gets.

Seeing a Hunchback 4G and a Hunch IIC go at it is going to be a bar brawl.

[FupDup]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 30 June 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

Thunderous powercreep aside, I'm happy because this will add some more variety to the clans. The less storm crows I see the more fun the game gets.

Seeing a Hunchback 4G and a Hunch IIC go at it is going to be a bar brawl.

For all intents and purposes, Clan Battlemechs are more or less like pre-optimized Omnimechs. Clan vs Clan balancing should see some more variety, but against the IS their impact could be similar to what the current Clan top dogs do...

[WrathOfDeadguy]

There may be hope for most of them. The Hunchback-IIC is notorious for carrying a whole lot of gun with not enough armor. The Highlander and Orion are both already outclassed by other already-available Omnis, and won't have much effect on the status quo.

The IS Jenner, however, is pretty much boned. As I just noted in another thread, the base IIC variant offers 50% more firepower than the Oxide (for 75% of the tonnage in weapons- 8t for 4x IS-SRM4 vs 6t for 6x C-SRM4), with a higher engine cap, jets, and all the benefits of less bulky Clan XL, Endo, and Ferro. It's a straight upgrade in every single way. Laser duration quirks may provide for some balance to the other three variants, but they're all just flat out better on paper. More jets, bigger and tankier engines, lighter weapons... gg Jenner, nice knowing ya. Oh, and picture that sucker with 6x SSRM4 (for only one more ton than the Oxide's optimal 4x SRM4 build)... ggclose, every other light in the game. Including the never-to-be-sufficiently-cursed Firestarter. Yes, let's have loads of fun with streakboats that boast Stormcrow tubecounts and troll around at 160+kph. That'll do wonders for the population of... oh, everything else.

Edited by PS WrathOfDeadguy, 30 June 2015 - 09:51 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 30 June 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

The Highlander and Orion are both already outclassed by other already-available Omnis,...

The Orion is arguably outclassed in the Heavy class by the TBR and EBJ because ON1 has limited ballistic and energy hardpoints (this game's basic problem for preferring those two weapon systems) but HGN is only practically outclassed by DWF in the firepower department for Clan Assault. She can't do magic because of her limited hardpoints (just like the old IS HGNs) but her ability to mount heavy weaponry, jump, and change her equipment earns her a pretty unique place in the Clan stable.

[Widowmaker1981]

I dont understand how people dont see the huge glaring issue this is going to cause for all omnimechs. Even the most optimised ones like the Timberwolf still have:

Locked ES/FF crits in all the useful places (legs, head, CT)
Locked TT engine choices. Chassis tonnage x movement points is almost never the best engine for MWO.

The ability to choose a non TT engine size and force ES/FF crits into the arms (or wherever you like) is ENORMOUS, and i cant see how Omnimechs can compete if they use the same tech base. Either Omnimechs are going to need large buffs (and attendent sweeping nerfs for clan gear overall) or IICs are going to need some massive negative quirks.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

I dont understand how people dont see the huge glaring issue this is going to cause for all omnimechs. Even the most optimised ones like the Timberwolf still have:

Locked ES/FF crits in all the useful places (legs, head, CT)
Locked TT engine choices. Chassis tonnage x movement points is almost never the best engine for MWO.

The ability to choose a non TT engine size and force ES/FF crits into the arms (or wherever you like) is ENORMOUS, and i cant see how Omnimechs can compete if they use the same tech base. Either Omnimechs are going to need large buffs (and attendent sweeping nerfs for clan gear overall) or IICs are going to need some massive negative quirks.

Never stopped us TT players from using Omnis over second line.

[CyclonerM]

FupDup, on 29 June 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

Clan tech is a pretty big positive quirk.

Aside when you are using ERLLs, CLRMs, UAC/2-5s, ERPPCs

[Hit the Deck]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

...
The ability to choose a non TT engine size and force ES/FF crits into the arms (or wherever you like) is ENORMOUS, and i cant see how Omnimechs can compete if they use the same tech base. Either Omnimechs are going to need large buffs (and attendent sweeping nerfs for clan gear overall) or IICs are going to need some massive negative quirks.

The better designed Omnis like TBR and SCR can certainly keep their thrones for a foreseeable future because of the ability to change and equip good OmniPods (those with multiple hardpoints). While the fixed crits allocation could be a potential problem, a good choice of engine (5/8 Movement Points for Heavies and 6/9 Movement Points for Mediums) is more of a boon than a disability because Clan 'Mechs can still mount so many weapons.

[Widowmaker1981]

Hit the Deck, on 01 July 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

The better designed Omnis like TBR and SCR can certainly keep their thrones for a foreseeable future because of the ability to change and equip good OmniPods (those with multiple hardpoints). While the fixed crits allocation could be a potential problem, a good choice of engine (5/8 Movement Points for Heavies and 6/9 Movement Points for Mediums) is more of a boon than a disability because Clan 'Mechs can still mount so many weapons.

If you think Omnipod swapping makes up for full engine/internal customisation you simply dont understand how this game works.
Many of the IIC mechs will come with adequate hardpoints, and thats all you need.
A 4.5/6.75 movement is far better than 5/7.5 (there is no rounding issue in MWO, so its not 5/8) because you only lose ~5kph but gain ~4 tons for gear - its just that in TT that is impossible to build like that, and so no omnimechs exist with that sort of setup. IICs will bypass that, just like IS mechs.

Joseph Mallan, on 01 July 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Never stopped us TT players from using Omnis over second line.

for the 1 billionth time, this is not TT. In TT, IIC mechs cant use NON TT possible engine sizes for a start.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 01 July 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

If you think Omnipod swapping makes up for full engine/internal customisation you simply dont understand how this game works.
Many of the IIC mechs will come with adequate hardpoints, and thats all you need.
A 4.5/6.75 movement is far better than 5/7.5 (there is no rounding issue in MWO, so its not 5/8) because you only lose ~5kph but gain ~4 tons for gear - its just that in TT that is impossible to build like that, and so no omnimechs exist with that sort of setup. IICs will bypass that, just like IS mechs.

Except when you get hardpoints on a IIC like 1B, 3E, and 3M and you are left wondering what to do with that. It's just a question of which one is better designed from the start.

I admit that it's very true that the most potential lies in a Clan Battlemech with an abundance of ballistics and energy hardpoints complemented with good hardpoint locations. But until we get that (actually the Jenner is pretty close!), the well designed Omnis can still put a very good fight.

[Widowmaker1981]

Hit the Deck, on 01 July 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

Except when you get hardpoints on a IIC like 1B, 3E, and 3M and you are left wondering what to do with that. It's just a question of which one is better designed from the start.

I admit that it's very true that the most potential lies in a Clan Battlemech with an abundance of ballistics and energy hardpoints complemented with good hardpoint locations. But until we get that (actually the Jenner is pretty close!), the well designed Omnis can still put a very good fight.

Yeah, you are right - not ALL of the IICs will be good.

That doesnt matter though, because the good ones will be all thats used. Its possible that the HGN and ONI wont be that good (though i think the HGN-IIC-C will be pretty damn good) but that Hunchie.. High mounted ports? Check. Enough hardpoints? Check. (can do Twin Goose, Twin UAC10, Triple UAC5, 8xEnergy builds on a 50 tonner). Nice empty arms for forcing those ES/FF crits into a stripping the amour for tonnage? Check. its going to be a monster - why would anyone ever use a Nova when that exists, other than a complete masochist?

[Ace Selin]

Wildstreak, on 29 June 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Jenner-IIC-C is comparable to the F.
Jenner-IIC is comparable to the Oxide.
Jenner IIC-1 to the K.
Jenner-IIC 2 to the D.
All are souped up versions, faster engine, more JJs. Not much upgrading to do, is there?

Hunchback I will wait on before seeing but for now.
IIC to the 4G
IIC-A to the 4P.
IIC-B to the 4J/4SP though more Missile, less Energy.
IIC-C to the 4H.
Definitely need the 250 engine, blinders on both sides of the cockpit compared to the IS versions 1. JJs though.

IIC, 4UAC2? 4MGs and 2ERLL zombie?
IIC-A, hot.
IIC-B, Streaks
IIC-C dual UAC5, maybe UAC10. Some crazy person will try to fit dual UAC20 or Gauss.

A lot of them will be vulnerable due to XL engines. IIC zombie will be best of all.

What are you talking about, Clan mechs don't die to side tosro destruction in their XL engines like IS mechs do.

[FupDup]

CyclonerM, on 01 July 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Aside when you are using ERLLs, CLRMs, UAC/2-5s, ERPPCs

The UAC/2 is about as bad as its IS counterpart. The UAC/5 is actually viable in pairs or more (i.e. 4 ERML + 2 UAC/5 Hellbringer is a beast).

The Clan ERPPC isn't that good, but it's technically better than the IS ERPPC ("less bad").

I consider Clan Lurms to be roughly equal to IS Lurms, for the most part.

The Clan ERLL isn't necessarily bad per se, it's just a very hyperspecialized niche gun. In this case, its niche is sniping people from crazy distances that they can't retaliate from. It does however become sub-par in short range fights.

[Hades Trooper]

WarZ, on 29 June 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

People requesting the return of full blow pop tarting ...

... has got to be the most dumb-a**ed and SELFISH thing I've seen recently.

It was a BROKEN tactic. Therefore it was addressed numerous times. It was mostly nerfed out of the game for a REASON.

Begging for a return to that sh** storm is just plain stupid, short sighted, and completely selfish.

Epic face palming puts it lightly.

Return of pop tarting will be the removal of the game from my PC for good

[Joseph Mallan]

WarZ, on 29 June 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

People requesting the return of full blow pop tarting ...

... has got to be the most dumb-a**ed and SELFISH thing I've seen recently.

It was a BROKEN tactic. Therefore it was addressed numerous times. It was mostly nerfed out of the game for a REASON.

Begging for a return to that sh** storm is just plain stupid, short sighted, and completely selfish.

Epic face palming puts it lightly.

Gotta ask you War, Why was it Broken? Cause it was effective? I personally don't Jump, its not my style, but a disciplined GroPo unit could make Clay Pigeons outta Pop tarts.

[Wildstreak]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

I dont understand how people dont see the huge glaring issue this is going to cause for all omnimechs. Even the most optimised ones like the Timberwolf still have:

Locked ES/FF crits in all the useful places (legs, head, CT)
Locked TT engine choices. Chassis tonnage x movement points is almost never the best engine for MWO.

The ability to choose a non TT engine size and force ES/FF crits into the arms (or wherever you like) is ENORMOUS, and i cant see how Omnimechs can compete if they use the same tech base. Either Omnimechs are going to need large buffs (and attendent sweeping nerfs for clan gear overall) or IICs are going to need some massive negative quirks.

No it is not. Only certain Omnimechs have issues due to lack of Endo and/or FF. Timber Wolf and Stormcrow have both so are not among them. Dire Wolf lacks both yet does quite well. Other Omnis depend, some have and some don't.

Locked engine, no big deal except to a very few Omnis. Most go faster than competitive IS Mechs and speed is good quite often.

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

If you think Omnipod swapping makes up for full engine/internal customisation you simply dont understand how this game works.

If you think it doesn't, you don't understand how the game works.

With all this negative view of Clan Mechs, why are you Clan? There are certain issues but nowhere on the scale you claim.

Ace Selin, on 01 July 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

What are you talking about, Clan mechs don't die to side tosro destruction in their XL engines like IS mechs do.

Look at the Hunchback IIC.
There are people who shoot out side torsos instead of always going CT, this is to remove the target's ability to fight back.
IIC Hunch has easy to hit side torsos except probably the IIC-B, one side will remove some weapons and despite not dying to XL, it now sufferes a penalty. Even worse off, let a Light get on the IIC Hunch's backside. People wanting to run big Ballistics in this Mech will not move fast and those claiming Dual Gauss is OP, those Gauss explode for 20 points that could transfer to your CT.
Peolpe are overrating the IIC Hunchback stronger than it is.