137 replies to this topic

[Sigilum Sanctum]

The concept of a Highlander IIC with twin uac10s, 2srm6a, and 3erml I find to be very intriguing....

[OznerpaG]

they both are DOA in my book - the Orion's hardpoints are way too low for my style of play, and as for the Highlander i don't pilot mechs below 75kph

not to say they won't be great mechs in the hands of other people, but i they ain'ts my style and i doubt we'l see them much a month or 2 after they'r released

[IraqiWalker]

KiraOnime, on 30 June 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

As to others, call me a troll, I don,t give a ****. If all you need to call me so is me having a different opinion, then be my guest, call me what you want. I'm not jumping on the IIC bandwagon, at least not on the Orion and Highlander one. I do plan on getting the Hunchy.

No, you having a different opinion doesn't make you a troll. Here's what does:

1- Pack hasn't been out for 2 hours, and you post a DOA thread

2- Your attitude "convince me otherwise". Pro-tip: Don't do that, it immediately makes people hostile

3- The reason you listed: They don't focus on one weapon type. Which is silly

Those combined form an unholy trinary of troll alerts.

I personally think you're wrong, and did mention so earlier, including why they would be good.

KiraOnime, on 30 June 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

DoA was probably too harsh of a statement to open with.
Will they be unplayable? No of course not. They'll be playable, just like every other mech.
Comps mechs? Most probably not unless they have something really good going for them. *1 or 2 variants excluded*.
These mechs simply don't fit the type of mechs I like. I prefer mechs going all out on 1 type of weapon instead of trying to be a jack of all trades.

There's literally no reason that they'll be bad just because they have versatile hardpoints. Laservomit isn't the only good way to play.

[Bleary]

Wintersdark, on 30 June 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Because there are so very many people who don't really understand the game. Even at high levels of play - skill in the game is not at all related to understanding how the game works, and how the meta develops.

Most players just don't understand, and that's fine. They'll use builds that other people post, strategies that others design, and they'll measure new things by those yardsticks, not really understanding what factors contribute to making a build good, or strategy successful. This isn't an insult, it's not a failing of those people. It's a particular skillset and means of thinking, that's all.

As far as that goes, sure. More to the point though, these judgments are always made with woefully incomplete information. Even if you know what you're talking about, you don't necessarily know enough to talk about it.

Model scaling. Hitboxes. Movement profiles. Torso twist ranges. Side-on proportions. The impact of dynamic weapon modeling on location geometry. Variant hardpoint locations that don't show up on the preview art. All of the things that can turn a 'Mech like the Grasshopper from a preview darling into an awkward stepchild overnight. Or vice versa.

And these IIC 'Mechs have the comprehensive balance sweep looming between now and release. We don't even have a firm idea what a good Clan hardpoint distribution will look like come next December. Given every incremental balance change to the Clans has revolved around the laser boat issue, it's a fair guess that priority number one for the Clans is ensuring it won't look the same as it does now.

Edited by Bleary, 30 June 2015 - 09:49 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bleary, on 30 June 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

As far as that goes, sure. More to the point though, these judgments are always made with woefully incomplete information. Even if you know what you're talking about, you don't necessarily know enough to talk about it.

Model scaling. Hitboxes. Movement profiles. Torso twist ranges. Side-on proportions. The impact of dynamic weapon modeling on location geometry. Variant hardpoint locations that don't show up on the preview art. All of the things that can turn a 'Mech like the Grasshopper from a preview darling into an awkward stepchild overnight. Or vice versa.

And these IIC 'Mechs have the comprehensive balance sweep looming between now and release. We don't even have a firm idea what a good Clan hardpoint distribution will look like come next December. Given every incremental balance change to the Clans has revolved around the laser boat issue, it's a fair guess that priority number one for the Clans is ensuring it won't look the same as it does now.

All true.

Of course, the rebalanced pass means any discussion of balance between things on the other side of that pass is pointless; even small changes can really alter the meta, and this may end up being small changes, but it'll be a lot of them.

With that said, the IIC pack is unique in that we have a very good idea of what scaling, Geometry and hitboxes will be like - these can be reasonably expected to mirror the IS versions quite closely. (HBK IIC's second hunch notwithstanding)

Still, this is something I like a lot about diverse load outs. Builds focused on one type of hard point (see: energy boats) are great when that weapon is dominant and garbage if that type has been nerfed. Diverse load outs can still focus on the better weapon, but can continue doing that when the meta shifts. It makes them more enduring, in my experience.

Of course, that's when you're focusing on what's viable, as opposed to strictly what's optimal. YMMV.

Regardless, for all the reasons above, claims of DOA are far more premature now than they normally are.

[Widowmaker1981]

DOA?

LOL

I dont see how these mechs arent going to completely obsolete all Omnimechs. Customisable engines is a HUGE thing, combined with dynamic clan FF and ES and 2 slot clan DHS. In order to make them remotely balanced vs IS, huge sweeping nerfs to clan tech will be required, making Omnimechs literally junk.

The only way i see this working AT ALL is if the IIC mechs ship with huge negative quirks.

[IraqiWalker]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

DOA?

LOL

I dont see how these mechs arent going to completely obsolete all Omnimechs. Customisable engines is a HUGE thing, combined with dynamic clan FF and ES and 2 slot clan DHS. In order to make them remotely balanced vs IS, huge sweeping nerfs to clan tech will be required, making Omnimechs literally junk.

The only way i see this working AT ALL is if the IIC mechs ship with huge negative quirks.

Not that huge really. Some maybe, but no huge nerfs. I think they will be strong mechs. Not one will be DoA. However, I seriously doubt any of them will make it to tier 1. The laser hunchie might, and the 6 missile Jenner might, as long as it sticks to being a light hunter.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 01 July 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

Not that huge really. Some maybe, but no huge nerfs. I think they will be strong mechs. Not one will be DoA. However, I seriously doubt any of them will make it to tier 1. The laser hunchie might, and the 6 missile Jenner might, as long as it sticks to being a light hunter.

50 ton mech with high mounted twin gauss running at 90 kph that doesnt die on ST loss? yeah totally fine. Not even slightly OP.

The highlander will be able to run almost direwolf levels of weapon weight, running at 64kph and jumping.

I dont think you understand how much locked engines and FF/ES crits hurts omnimechs

[IraqiWalker]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

50 ton mech with high mounted twin gauss running at 90 kph that doesnt die on ST loss? yeah totally fine. Not even slightly OP.

The highlander will be able to run almost direwolf levels of weapon weight, running at 64kph and jumping.

I dont think you understand how much locked engines and FF/ES crits hurts omnimechs

No I do. I'm just not into panicking about something, when I have almost no data to confirm the panic.
(Also, I think you meant to say "hovering" not jumping)

Here are some basic facts:

1- We don't know what the state of balance will be in December.

2- We don't know what kind of quirks these mechs will have.

3- We don't know what the meta will be by December.

Based on these basic 3 facts, the best guesses we have, are still very unreliable. They are almost as reliable as the guesses that we had when the Phoenix mechs arrived, and everyone hailed the Thunderbolt, and Battlemaster as the new kings of the field, and the Shadowhawk DoA. 5 minutes after the mechs hit the field, the BLR, and TDR were proven to be meh, at best, and the Shadowhawk was the absolute king.

Same guesses that the Cataphract was going to be DoA when it first came out. From it's first day to this day, it's still one of the best. In fact, I think it's the only mech that managed to last through so many meta changes as the tier 1 mech. No other mech has done that.

So based on the pattern established through so many data points from each mech release, and the facts above. I can safely say that people need to stop panicking, and wait.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 01 July 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

No I do. I'm just not into panicking about something, when I have almost no data to confirm the panic.
(Also, I think you meant to say "hovering" not jumping)

Here are some basic facts:

1- We don't know what the state of balance will be in December.

2- We don't know what kind of quirks these mechs will have.

3- We don't know what the meta will be by December.

Based on these basic 3 facts, the best guesses we have, are still very unreliable. They are almost as reliable as the guesses that we had when the Phoenix mechs arrived, and everyone hailed the Thunderbolt, and Battlemaster as the new kings of the field, and the Shadowhawk DoA. 5 minutes after the mechs hit the field, the BLR, and TDR were proven to be meh, at best, and the Shadowhawk was the absolute king.

Same guesses that the Cataphract was going to be DoA when it first came out. From it's first day to this day, it's still one of the best. In fact, I think it's the only mech that managed to last through so many meta changes as the tier 1 mech. No other mech has done that.

So based on the pattern established through so many data points from each mech release, and the facts above. I can safely say that people need to stop panicking, and wait.

We know the following things:

IIC mechs will use the exact same weapons and internal components as Omnimechs (all clan stuff)

Omnimechs are seriously limited by being unable to change engines, remove heatsinks, unusable crit space due to non dynamic ES/FF etc.

IIC mechs will have none of these limitations

given that, how is it possible that Omnimechs wont be outclassed by IICs? You are literally trading the ability to mix and match omnipods for the ability to customise everything else, and its obvious to anyone with a brain which ones of those is the better side of the deal - yes, not ALL of the IICs will be great due to hardpoint deficiences, but the ones with good hardpoints? How can omnimechs compete with that?

Just as an example:
EBON JAGUAR EBJ-A
That build will use its ammo in the following order: RT -> LT -> RA, and so, if you lose the RA late in the fight you are guaranteed to run out of ammo, as the last 2 tons used are in the arm, nothing you can do about it. If you had dynamic crits like an IS mech, those 2 tons in the arm (and the one in the LT) can be moved to the head and CT or legs, making it so you never lose the ammo while you still have guns. Almost every ammo dependent clan build suffers from this issue (part of the reason you see so many energy boats) - the arms are a TERRIBLE place to store ammo, but you are forced into it.

[IraqiWalker]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

We know the following things:

IIC mechs will use the exact same weapons and internal components as Omnimechs (all clan stuff)

Omnimechs are seriously limited by being unable to change engines, remove heatsinks, unusable crit space due to non dynamic ES/FF etc.

IIC mechs will have none of these limitations

given that, how is it possible that Omnimechs wont be outclassed by IICs? You are literally trading the ability to mix and match omnipods for the ability to customise everything else, and its obvious to anyone with a brain which ones of those is the better side of the deal - yes, not ALL of the IICs will be great due to hardpoint deficiences, but the ones with good hardpoints? How can omnimechs compete with that?

Just as an example:
EBON JAGUAR EBJ-A
That build will use its ammo in the following order: RT -> LT -> RA, and so, if you lose the RA late in the fight you are guaranteed to run out of ammo, as the last 2 tons used are in the arm, nothing you can do about it. If you had dynamic crits like an IS mech, those 2 tons in the arm (and the one in the LT) can be moved to the head and CT or legs, making it so you never lose the ammo while you still have guns. Almost every ammo dependent clan build suffers from this issue (part of the reason you see so many energy boats) - the arms are a TERRIBLE place to store ammo, but you are forced into it.

Yes, and clan omnis have built in case to mitigate that. Whereas IIC mechs have to put case in the STs, if they want to use XLs, and ammo weapons.

Look, I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument about this. We don't have enough information to make an informed decision, or prediction. Especially since there's a balance pass incoming very soon, and possibly more until December.

[Hit the Deck]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

given that, how is it possible that Omnimechs wont be outclassed by IICs?

If the Clan Battlemech has p00p hardpoints (like you mentioned) and low engine limit (destined to be sluggish). This also applies to Omnimechs.

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

...yes, not ALL of the IICs will be great due to hardpoint deficiences, but the ones with good hardpoints? How can omnimechs compete with that?

Can't (with our current established construction rules). But this depends on your definition of "good" and "meta flavor of the month". Obviously an Omni is more flexible on her choice to mount weapons.

[Burktross]

FupDup, on 29 June 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

The Lowlander IIC, if you equip it with a Clan XL325, Endo, FF, and 3 JJs, will have 46 tons to spend on equipment. That's a shitload.


The Onion IIC will have 42.5 tons of equipment with a Clan XL300, Endo, and FF. If you use a bigger engine, of course you get less dakka but you get more maneuverability (and you'll still have plenty of firepower anyways).

With a XL325 you'll have 39 tons to spend, and with a XL350 you'll have 36 tons.

My body is ready, but my wallet is not.
I feel dirty for absolutely needing these clantech Orions and Hunchies

Sigilum Sanctum, on 30 June 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

The concept of a Highlander IIC with twin uac10s, 2srm6a, and 3erml I find to be very intriguing....

Ooff. That sounds like it'll be painful to find around a corner.

[Wintersdark]

Hit the Deck, on 01 July 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

If the Clan Battlemech has p00p hardpoints (like you mentioned) and low engine limit (destined to be sluggish). This also applies to Omnimechs.


Can't (with our current established construction rules). But this depends on your definition of "good" and "meta flavor of the month". Obviously an Omni is more flexible on her choice to mount weapons.

The IIC's will be better than the poorly configured omnis but not necessarily better than the optimal omnis (which were themselves already better that the non-optimal omnis).

The only advantage they have is basically being garaunteed the upgrades of choice and a good engine.

So, the Timberwolf, the Ebon Jaguar, etc? They're in no danger. The mechs that were already lackluster, like the Summoner and Nova? They're hampered, and that's not going to change.


Ultimately, this is a good way to showcase how bad locked upgrades are as a balancing mechanic. It's actually a flat out freaking stupid idea, and one that Paul should feel bad for.

Why?

Because it doesn't "balance" anything, it arbitrarily and basically randomly screws certain mechs regardless of how strong or weak they'd otherwise be. A mech without FF/ES is simply objectively worse than one with FF/ES (particularly the clan versions) as they're basically just free tonnage. This locked upgrade system has made it much harder to balance IS v. Clan, as the Chosen Mechs with the right locked equipment have huge advantages over those that don't. They should all be unlocked, and balance worked out overall - that way, faction wide buffs/nerfs could have happened without screwing the already weaker mechs.

Sorry for the rant, but that's bugged me from Clan Day 1.

[Wildstreak]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

DOA?

LOL

I dont see how these mechs arent going to completely obsolete all Omnimechs. Customisable engines is a HUGE thing, combined with dynamic clan FF and ES and 2 slot clan DHS. In order to make them remotely balanced vs IS, huge sweeping nerfs to clan tech will be required, making Omnimechs literally junk.

The only way i see this working AT ALL is if the IIC mechs ship with huge negative quirks.

Huge negative quirks, not too sure on any but the Jenner IIC needing that.

"Killer Dual Gauss Hunchback," ROFL. If you like glass cannons. Think I am wrong, back it up in the topic for it.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

50 ton mech with high mounted twin gauss running at 90 kph that doesnt die on ST loss? yeah totally fine. Not even slightly OP.

The highlander will be able to run almost direwolf levels of weapon weight, running at 64kph and jumping.

I dont think you understand how much locked engines and FF/ES crits hurts omnimechs

Um... If your Hunchie IIC has dual Gauss, and runs 90kph, even with 0 armor on both arms and head, that gives you about 2 tons for ammo without brutalizing the armor you have left.... Good luck with that 300 damage max build. I'm sure you'll break the game balance in half...

Hmm? What's that? The Grid Iron fires a single gauss rifle twice at twice the normal rate? And can carry NINE tons of ammo while running 90kph? WITH a MPL for backup? And at almost full armor?

The HBK-IIC isn't even as powerful as the Grid Iron as a gauss build. It's not going to break the game... I can think of a few builds that will put it well aheqd of the curve, but it's not OP compared to what we have.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 01 July 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 01 July 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

50 ton mech with high mounted twin gauss running at 90 kph that doesnt die on ST loss? yeah totally fine. Not even slightly OP.

The highlander will be able to run almost direwolf levels of weapon weight, running at 64kph and jumping.

I dont think you understand how much locked engines and FF/ES crits hurts omnimechs

The heavier robots lack hardpoints to compete with the current Meta Overlords, and for the Hunch to do Dual Gauss, the engine needs to be low.

The highest engine you can get with 50 rounds (bare minimum you'd want) and a JJ seems to be a 225, which lets you move 80 Kph. Still light on ammo, but pretty good speed.


Jenner...well, should be one of the better Lights. cXL doesn't mean much for Jenners, but saves you from the occasional Dual Gauss shot that would ruin a normal Jenner. CT will still be the usual death, but lightweight SRMs and ERMLs or cSPLs are both wonderful weapons.


Will a FS9 be more durable? Maybe. Although, Hankyu depending on hitboxes might also be alright. Less armour, but cXL if it has a small CT.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 01 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

The heavier robots lack *energy and ballistic hardpoints to compete with the current Meta Overlords, and for the Hunch to do Dual Gauss, the engine needs to be low.
....

Fixed it.

[FupDup]

Hit the Deck, on 01 July 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Fixed it.

Well, the Highlander IIC has triple lasers in the LT that are mounted kinda high like the Hellbringer, and 1-2 ballistics in the right arm.

The Onion IIC has a variant with 2 energy per arm, which could prove useful in some ways... Or maybe you could be really insane and do twin Gauss in the right torso of the 4th variant, and carry 2 MPL for backup. Requires a STD300 engine though.

[Hit the Deck]

FupDup, on 01 July 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Well, the Highlander IIC has triple lasers in the LT that are mounted kinda high like the Hellbringer, and 1-2 ballistics in the right arm.

The Onion IIC has a variant with 2 energy per arm, which could prove useful in some ways... Or maybe you could be really insane and do twin Gauss in the right torso of the 4th variant, and carry 2 MPL for backup. Requires a STD300 engine though.

I just want to inderectly point out that missiles is apparently still the read headed stepchild. For example, when people mention about lack of hardpoints, they don't mean that the 'Mech can do better with more missiles. I find it kind of sad and hope that missiles get better