180 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Joseph, the same could be said about all Clan lasers. If they are newer tech why make them have longer burn times? Based on your post, you don't really care about competitive balance and are happy to see comp matches made up of primarily Clan mechs. That's fine, but this is not the thread you are looking for.


Guys wanting to nerf Clan Gauss: No, let's not do that. I think making the IS version a little more robust is more acceptable. If I were a Clanner (and I do use Clan mechs frequently) I would be more opposed to a cooldown increase than a increase in HP a decrease in explosion damage to the IS version.

Actually Joseph and I share the same mindset on this, we are IS players and we WANT the Clans to have the technological edge, we WANT them to have the superior equipment, so that when we beat them it's because we're the better players and that victory is all the sweeter for the fact that they had the edge and still lost. I only use Clan toys in PUGlandia, I'm strictly IS for CW and spend most of my time in PUGlandia in IS Mechs due to that fact. We just happen to enjoy facing the Clans as they were in TT, overpowered and better all around, it's fun to us. Balance be damned, it's fun.

Yeah, we understand that not everyone feels the same, and we know that PGI doesn't follow OUR philosophy, but they've done a good job of achieving parity and that's what's really important, parity.

CW is the only place you see pure Clan vs IS contests right now, and so far, my experience, parity has been achieved. PUG Clan vs PUG IS, it's a tossup who'll win based on teamwork and individual skill, it's NOT an autowin for the Clan team or an autoloss for the IS team. That's parity my friend, it's better than pure balance because it allows the differences to exist without being UP or OP overall.

[MischiefSC]

Unbalanced tech dooms the game. You make a tech 'progression' that promotes a migration of experienced players to the superior tech so you end up with a community skewed with experienced players in superior tech on one side.

If you want to play against better tech then don't use endo or only run stock builds. Have fun, go nuts. As a PvP moba game however that isn't a viable design approach.

The whole Clan tech thing was always bad. Even the developers talked about it later at con's and such - it was a bad design and they tried to find it with later updates, hence by dark ages its all even.

Repeating bad choices is not a good development path.

[Ghogiel]

I don't think the OP suggestion is out of line. But only under the condition that all IS mechs that have gauss quirks have them reduced by 20% or so.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ghogiel, on 02 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

I don't think the OP suggestion is out of line. But only under the condition that all IS mechs that have gauss quirks have them reduced by 20% or so.

If you are referring to the Grid Iron, I DGAF about that thing.

[Ghogiel]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

If you are referring to the Grid Iron, I DGAF about that thing.

You should. Can't see how anyone can be taken seriously about proposing weapon balance changes while actively ignoring the fact there are mechs that have quirks and that more than noticably affects how things are balanced in the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ghogiel, on 02 July 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

You should. Can't see how anyone can be taken seriously about proposing weapon balance changes while actively ignoring the fact there are mechs that have quirks and that more than noticably affects how things are balanced in the game.

No I mean, I don't care if you nuke it from orbit

[Thumper3]

Aim64C, on 01 July 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Frankly, I'm more of the opinion that the Inner Sphere weapon systems should reflect the nature of the Inner Sphere with is many diverse weapon manufacturers that build weapons falling into generic classes.

Particularly in the early lore, a lot of battlemechs were noted with what -type- of weapon system they were using and the game simply tried to lump them into general classes to reflect the general design objectives of the weapon.

I have always operated under the belief that this is what the quirks represent, nothing more.

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

If you are referring to the Grid Iron, I DGAF about that thing.

You should, with the quirk, Fast Fire, and the cooldown module it can fire gauss downrange as fast as an AC5. Not that there's anything wrong with it though, it's not like the battlefield is over run with Grid Irons and I love Hunchie's. LOL

Seriously, I think the original thought of a little more HP for the IS gauss is decent and not going to vastly change anything. Nerfing Clan Tech is just not the way to go. I know due to the game dynamics you have to strive for "balance" even though lore is clear that Clan is vastly superior.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 02 July 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Unbalanced tech dooms the game. You make a tech 'progression' that promotes a migration of experienced players to the superior tech so you end up with a community skewed with experienced players in superior tech on one side.

If you want to play against better tech then don't use endo or only run stock builds. Have fun, go nuts. As a PvP moba game however that isn't a viable design approach.

The whole Clan tech thing was always bad. Even the developers talked about it later at con's and such - it was a bad design and they tried to find it with later updates, hence by dark ages its all even.

Repeating bad choices is not a good development path.

Problem with that view is that MWO is actually at parity, even with their superior Tech the Clan toys are NOT the best option across the board, nor are they an autowin, and the IS toys are not an autoloss.

When you are in an IS Mech and see a Clan Mech, do you immediately just shutdown because you've already lost? No, you don't, the only thought will be 'is the pilot any good?', that's it.

Disparit Tech works fine as long as parity is achieved and maintained, and we have that in MWO right now. Drop in CW, you can see it, Clans vs IS, teams are the deciding factor, not the Mechs or the Tech. MWO isn't the first PvP game to do things in this way, it's proven to work just fine as long as parity is maintained, and so far, it has been. We'll see how well it's really functioning after the HSR fixes come in next week, as that may change things around.

Personally, I think the IS is in for some nerfage, but we'll see what happens soon enough.

[Lightfoot]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

So as we all know aside from weighing 3 tons more the IS Gauss behaves exactly like the Clan Gauss. Otherwise, they are exactly the same. What if PGI raised IS gauss hitpoints and lowered its explosion damage a little bit? Or maybe just one or the other. Rationale is the extra 3 tons is used to aid in weapon shielding/explosion containment. Clans stripped it because their XLs aren't so fragile, and something something.

Its a slight buff that makes putting Gauss in IS XL side torsos not so suicidal, but will be far from game breaking as it literally behaves the same as the Clan Gauss otherwise.

I think its fair... doesn't involve neutering the Clan Gauss at all..

Nah, that's why I can't change the Engine in my Mad Cat, because the Clan tech weighs a bit less and is one crit smaller sometimes. They can get rid of the Quake II charge-up anytime though, on both versions. I am tired of the 'Battle Tech when it suits us' approach. It is or it isn't and the Gauss charge-up is not Battle Tech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lightfoot, on 02 July 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Nah, that's why I can't change the Engine in my Mad Cat, because the Clan tech weighs a bit less and is one crit smaller sometimes. They can get rid of the Quake II charge-up anytime though, on both versions. I am tired of the 'Battle Tech when it suits us' approach. It is or it isn't and the Gauss charge-up is not Battle Tech.

So, IS mechs that can run Gauss in their XL STs a LITTLE more safely (but not NEARLY as safely as Clan mechs with XL engines) hurts you how?

You're Mad Cat also runs 90 kphs, you can't ignore that tid bit and act like a big engine is all negative.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 July 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 02 July 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

Problem with that view is that MWO is actually at parity, even with their superior Tech the Clan toys are NOT the best option across the board, nor are they an autowin, and the IS toys are not an autoloss.

Just because a tech base is not autowin does not mean it can't be better, efficiency isn't binary.....

As for parity, no, it is pretty bad even with quirks, and once the Arctic Cheater drops, things might get worse. If taken as a whole, the Clans have significant advantage. Outside light mechs, clans mechs tend to be much more effiicient than most IS mechs in their weight class and it is worst in the Heavy class where only a couple Thuds really pose threats.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 July 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 July 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

WHAT??? Firestarters can run dual gauss? If you are putting that there you better add Nova and Summoner to the clan list.

I'm 100% confident a dual Gauss timby can out Gauss the K2 and both CTFs no problem. The only reason that doesn't happen is because you can use a better build on the Timber Wolf so most people don't bother.

Mauler isn't out yet, but if you want to include announced mechs, you can add Orion IIC and Hunchback IIC to the Clan list

Also don't split up Cataphract variants to skew your argument, if you want to play that game you get 4 mechs for EBJ, 5 for Dire, and 4 for Warhawk so don't go down that road.

Are we talking effective or competitive, because if you want to talk competitive, its really on EBJ, Dire, and JM6 (questionably!) Based on "effective" you can dual gauss effectively in a Timber or an Executioner or a Hellbringer, there is nothing stopping you, you just have certain non-vital components gimped a little bit.

Can't wait to read your response to this!

There is a reason why Gyrok is in my ignore list.

[Lightfoot]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

So, IS mechs that can run Gauss in their XL STs a LITTLE more safely (but not NEARLY as safely as Clan mechs with XL engines) hurts you how?

You're Mad Cat also runs 90 kphs, you can't ignore that tid bit and act like a big engine is all negative.

Like I say let me change the engine size and you could argue weight of weapons, but the weight of the weapons is more than covered by the average payload of Clan mechs being so much lower than IS mechs. That's why the Engine and Equipment are locked on Clan mechs, to prevent players from utilizing the lower weight of Clan tech.

You can't ask for double nerfs and call it balance and we are only talking about a 3 ton difference. I don't really care, I don't ever use MWO's apocryphal Gauss garbage, but except for Clan Laser tech everything they have been given is kraptastic compared to IS weaponry. Give Clan tech single shot Ballistics for instance.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lightfoot, on 02 July 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Like I say let me change the engine size and you could argue weight of weapons, but the weight of the weapons is more than covered by the average payload of Clan mechs being so much lower than IS mechs. That's why the Engine and Equipment are locked on Clan mechs, to prevent players from utilizing the lower weight of Clan tech.

You can't ask for double nerfs and call it balance and we are only talking about a 3 ton difference. I don't really care, I don't ever use MWO's apocryphal Gauss garbage, but except for Clan Laser tech everything they have been given is kraptastic compared to IS weaponry. Give Clan tech single shot Ballistics for instance.

Whatever man. What are you gonna say when we have a Night Gyr with a smaller engine? What balances the heavier weight then? Or the Origins pack this December? I don't see the argument there.

It doesn't really matter, I just thought it would be a subtle way to balance it. But I guess yeah the IS already has too much of an advantage.. don't want to buff them anymore!

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

Whatever man. What are you gonna say when we have a Night Gyr with a smaller engine? What balances the heavier weight then? Or the Origins pack this December? I don't see the argument there.

It doesn't really matter, I just thought it would be a subtle way to balance it. But I guess yeah the IS already has too much of an advantage.. don't want to buff them anymore!

This gave me a funny thought...I wonder if PGI knew that the Night Gyr would be superior to the Orion IIC, so they decided to launch Clan Battlemechs instead of going with another Omni wave?

Probably not, but it's an amusing thought.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 02 July 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

This gave me a funny thought...I wonder if PGI knew that the Night Gyr would be superior to the Orion IIC, so they decided to launch Clan Battlemechs instead of going with another Omni wave?

Probably not, but it's an amusing thought.

Well, they didn't give separate ballistic slots in either the HGN or Orion for a reason. Both in the same component, far more restrictive.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lets make the CLan guass BURST!!!!!!

Its so OP cuz it weighs a little less then the IS version, lets also make its charge time 1.25s and its CD 4.75s instead.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 02 July 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 July 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

Lets make the CLan guass BURST!!!!!!

Its so OP cuz it weighs a little less then the IS version, lets also make its charge time 1.25s and its CD 4.75s instead.

Seriously? That is like 100 times more of an adjustment than what was proposed.

Seriously, all this does is make it a little less risky to mount an IS gauss in an XL torso. Its not that big of a deal, some of these Clan players are freaking out for no reason.

Don't troll so hard man. Proposing a minor buff to the IS version is nothing like nerf hammering the Clan gauss. Don't be a ****.

[Y E O N N E]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 July 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

Lets make the CLan guass BURST!!!!!!

Its so OP cuz it weighs a little less then the IS version, lets also make its charge time 1.25s and its CD 4.75s instead.

That's called a Hyper Assault Gauss, it comes after 3060, and it deals between 20 and 40 damage in 5-point lumps.

Given that the rounds will probably travel at 2000 m/s and be released with 0.11 second intervals, that's still pretty f*ckin' amazing.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

Seriously? That is like 100 times more of an adjustment than what was proposed.

Seriously, all this does is make it a little less risky to mount an IS gauss in an XL torso. Its not that big of a deal, some of these Clan players are freaking out for no reason.

Don't troll so hard man. Proposing a minor buff to the IS version is nothing like nerf hammering the Clan gauss. Don't be a ****.

Really, I propose to change nothing about either gauss.....besides making thier CD longer for both.....