246 replies to this topic

[Iqfish]

Russ Bullock, on 30 July 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Probably the best example in a while that shows why I don't spend more time on the forums. Wild assumptions.

While I understand that this is putting you off, you have to see the bright side. Lot's of well thought ideas here, great fan-art and lots and lots more. Just don't listen to people who post this nonrelated stuff.

[MrJeffers]

Domenoth, on 30 July 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

What are you basing this statement on? Any actual facts or figures? The Steam survey seems to suggest that DX11 has nearly double what the DX10 and below sets have.

From my time crawling the forums I've gotten the impression that most people do have DX11 but choose not to run it because it used to be worse than DX9. Now they're just even with eachother.

Also, my computer is 7 years old...and I have DX11 compatibility.

Don't know what Steam survey you are referring to, but according to their website:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

DX 11 and DX 10 capable systems (Hardware and OS of Vista or higher) *combined* are only ~24% of the total user base. Meaning ~76% are DX9 and below for some reason. Granted if they all got off XP and moved to Windows 10 that number would change dramatically, but still until that point there is zero reason to support a migration from DX9 to DX12 in MWO.

Edited by MrJeffers, 30 July 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[Imperius]

MrJeffers, on 30 July 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

Don't know what Steam survey you are referring to, but according to their website:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

DX 11 and DX 10 capable systems (Hardware and OS of Vista or higher) *combined* are only ~24% of the total user base. Meaning ~76% are DX9 and below for some reason. Granted if they all got off XP and moved to Windows 10 that number would change dramatically, but still until that point there is zero reason to support a migration from DX9 to DX12 in MWO.

Looks like most are gtx 600 series and higher

[Domenoth]

MrJeffers, on 30 July 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

Don't know what Steam survey you are referring to, but according to their website:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

DX 11 and DX 10 capable systems (Hardware and OS of Vista or higher) *combined* are only ~24% of the total user base. Meaning ~76% are DX9 and below for some reason. Granted if they all got off XP and moved to Windows 10 that number would change dramatically, but still until that point there is zero reason to support a migration from DX9 to DX12 in MWO.

If you look again you'll see that DX8 is listed at 0.11%, DX9 SM2 is 0.66%, DX9 SM2b is 0.96%, DX10/DX11 on XP is 0.86%, and DX10 Win7 is 7.32%. All of those added together do not equal "~76%". They equal about 10% while DX11 is 17%. DX11 has nearly double all of the categories under it. I have no idea why the numbers are all as low as they are and why they don't add up to 100%.

But I do know that if you click on "click for more info" Vista and XP collectively are less than 4%. And all those numbers do look like they add up to 100%.

So that seems to suggest your statement of "primarily because of their OS" is incorrect whatever the actual graphics numbers are.

Edit:
According to the graph, anything less than DX10 isn't even in single digits while DX11 is double digits.

Edited by Domenoth, 30 July 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[Navid A1]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 July 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

If you are running a low end system, odds are you aren't spending money on MWO right now. Old argument, one that's been proven time and again over the past few decades about games needing higher hardware requirements as time goes on. WoW didn't lose tons of paying customers when they upgraded their requirements, they lost FREEMIUM players who never spent money on the game and were playing on systems that could barely run WoW before it was updated. The people who spend money on a game ALREADY have shown they'll spend money to play, so income won't be lost, you just lose the people who aren't going to drop a dime on the game anyway.

That aside, there's other issues that take priority over DX12 being added, so it can wait. It will be a bit of a time eater to upgrade all the graphics to truly take advantage of what DX12 offers, the performance increase is worth it though without all the extra goodness it offers.

I'm the living proof of the under-lined statement being.... DEAD WRONG.!
I bought into a couple of packs and MCs when i was on a 2009 spec mid to high end laptop.


As for the upgrade to DX12, well... i fully support it. I now have compatible hardware and i know that time will not stop for nobody.!... its 2015 and you can find DX11 cards laying around almost anywhere.

[Imperius]

Domenoth, on 30 July 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

If you look again you'll see that DX8 is listed at 0.11%, DX9 SM2 is 0.66%, DX9 SM2b is 0.96%, DX10/DX11 on XP is 0.86%, and DX10 Win7 is 7.32%. All of those added together do not equal "~76%". They equal about 10% while DX11 is 17%. DX11 has nearly double all of the categories under it. I have no idea why the numbers are all as low as they are and why they don't add up to 100%.

But I do know that if you click on "click for more info" Vista and XP collectively are less than 4%. And all those numbers do look like they add up to 100%.

So that seems to suggest your statement of "primarily because of their OS" is incorrect whatever the actual graphics numbers are.

It's ok man some people have to defend their commador64's

Which is even more ironic because direct x 12 is a performance boost to most laptops...

[Kiiyor]

Imperius, on 30 July 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

It's ok man some people have to defend their commador64's

Which is even more ironic because direct x 12 is a performance boost to most laptops...

ALL laptops. DX12 apparently handles Integration between dedicated and integrated graphics (or just mixed GPU's in general) PROPERLY. Basically, every freaking laptop owner on the planet should be salivating at the thought of that. Ripped from one of the tech blogs:



Not only that, it is supposed to offer a huge decrease in power consumption for both the CPU and GPU. Less power consumption = less heat and throttling in older laptops.

This graph shows consumption decreasing after switching from DX11 to DX12 at about the mid point:



Again, ripped from one of the development blogs.

[MrJeffers]

Domenoth, on 30 July 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

If you look again you'll see that DX8 is listed at 0.11%, DX9 SM2 is 0.66%, DX9 SM2b is 0.96%, DX10/DX11 on XP is 0.86%, and DX10 Win7 is 7.32%. All of those added together do not equal "~76%". They equal about 10% while DX11 is 17%. DX11 has nearly double all of the categories under it. I have no idea why the numbers are all as low as they are and why they don't add up to 100%.

But I do know that if you click on "click for more info" Vista and XP collectively are less than 4%. And all those numbers do look like they add up to 100%.

So that seems to suggest your statement of "primarily because of their OS" is incorrect whatever the actual graphics numbers are.

Edit:
According to the graph, anything less than DX10 isn't even in single digits while DX11 is double digits.

DX11 and Windows 7 is 17.x%, DX10 and Windows 7 is 7.x%. About 24%. The DX9 numbers there are DX9 hardware running WIndows Vista or higher OS. Those first two numbers are the ones that matter - both the required hardware and the required OS and it's only ~24%. It's a chart of OS version PLUS hardware support.


While I am not sure why the numbers are so low and don't add to 100%, the 70% that dont meet the requirements of Hardware *and* software to run DX10 or higher means they need either of both upgrades to even get to DX10. SInce the OS mix is predominantly Windows 7 in the other charts it seems to indicate that hardware is lacking on most systems. Although that should mean the DX9 numbers on the graphics chart should be higher since the graph is Vista/Win7 OS, so the other ~76% missing from the graph means either the OS isn't Vista or higher, or there is no DX version detected at all. Given that the latter is unlikely it seems more like an OS filter. But even it it's no direct X version detected, the fact remains that only about 24% is even remotely near supporting DX12 and even they need an upgrade.

Edited by MrJeffers, 30 July 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[Imperius]

@Kiiyor
Some people think adding time to CW will fix it. When we need DX 12 (Performance reasons) and a Co-Op/Single Player Campaign to create a good first time user experience and training ground. Then CW's community will grow with players who have an idea of what to do or a place to fall back to and practice. As CW's community goes then obviously that is where the focus will be.

Edited by Imperius, 30 July 2015 - 05:25 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Kiiyor, on 30 July 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

ALL laptops. DX12 apparently handles Integration between dedicated and integrated graphics (or just mixed GPU's in general) PROPERLY. Basically, every freaking laptop owner on the planet should be salivating at the thought of that. Ripped from one of the tech blogs:



Not only that, it is supposed to offer a huge decrease in power consumption for both the CPU and GPU. Less power consumption = less heat and throttling in older laptops.

This graph shows consumption decreasing after switching from DX11 to DX12 at about the mid point:



Again, ripped from one of the development blogs.

Kiiyor couldnt help to post the Russian flag!!! i knew it hes a dirty commie!!


Ok you guys win, we will sacrifice 12 months for something that could add 10 fps where i don't need it and then tell a minority "too bad".

Edited by DAYLEET, 30 July 2015 - 05:18 PM.

[Kiiyor]

DAYLEET, on 30 July 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Kiiyor couldnt help to post the Russian flag!!! i knew it hes a dirty commie!!

NYET! Er, I mean...



lol, I actually have a few Russian friends who get a kick out of the whole dirty commie thing. They just sigh in exasperation and stop talking to me in english. JOKES ON THEM. I KNOW RUSSIAN SWEAR WORDS WHEN I HEAR THEM.

[Agent1190]

Windows 10 update complete. MWO works fine, as do many Steam games.

My system:
Intel i5-4570 3.2 GHz Quad Core
12 GB Ram
nVidia 750Ti Video Card - Used the official driver package released 7-29-15.
Samsung EVO 840 SSD

[nitra]

Imperius, on 30 July 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Looks like most are gtx 600 series and higher

interesting enough is that the Intel and Nvida chipsets are near about tied

and with steam being a gaming platform its only natural to see a higher percentage of discrete vs onboard

however the fact remains that intel has out sold nvidia and amd when it comes to graphics.

leaving the majority of pcs out there in the world unable to cope with more advanced graphics.

with regards to the much ballyhooing about the awesome powers of dx12 which frankly i am sick of.

there is no meaningful realworld benchmarks showing us the benefits.

dx11 was also promised as a great leap in graphics and performance yet dx 9 games with the help of advanced shaders and textures' outshine dx 11 games.

In actuality regardless of the tech it all comes down to the game engine and the artists. while dx12 may make things easier for those starting out on new projects. it is not going to transform legacy technology into marvels of wunderkind that leaps tall buildings saving damsels in distress from the evil unter dragons of dx hell.

Be damned your silly videos stating otherwise.

Edited by nitra, 30 July 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[Imperius]

nitra, on 30 July 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

interesting enough is that the Intel and Nvida chipsets are near about tied

and with steam being a gaming platform its only natural to see a higher percentage of discrete vs onboard

however the fact remains that intel has out sold nvidia and amd when it comes to graphics.

leaving the majority of pcs out there in the world unable to cope with more advanced graphics.

with regards to the much ballyhooing about the awesome powers of dx12 which frankly i am sick of.

there is no meaningful realworld benchmarks showing us the benefits.

dx11 was also promised as a great leap in graphics and performance yet dx 9 games with the help of advanced shaders and textures' outshine dx 11 games.

In actuality regardless of the tech it all comes down to the game engine and the artists. while dx12 may make things easier for those starting out on new projects. it is not going to transform legacy technology into marvels of wunderkind that leaps tall buildings saving damsels in distress from the evil unter dragons of dx hell be damned your silly videos stating otherwise.

Please educate yourself please there are plenty of benchmarks... Also it doesn't take 12 months!!! More like 3 tops.

[MrJeffers]

nitra, on 30 July 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

interesting enough is that the Intel and Nvida chipsets are near about tied

and with steam being a gaming platform its only natural to see a higher percentage of discrete vs onboard

however the fact remains that intel has out sold nvidia and amd when it comes to graphics.

leaving the majority of pcs out there in the world unable to cope with more advanced graphics.

with regards to the much ballyhooing about the awesome powers of dx12 which frankly i am sick of.

there is no meaningful realworld benchmarks showing us the benefits.

dx11 was also promised as a great leap in graphics and performance yet dx 9 games with the help of advanced shaders and textures' outshine dx 11 games.

In actuality regardless of the tech it all comes down to the game engine and the artists. while dx12 may make things easier for those starting out on new projects. it is not going to transform legacy technology into marvels of wunderkind that leaps tall buildings saving damsels in distress from the evil unter dragons of dx hell.

Be damned your silly videos stating otherwise.

There are demos and games that show the advantages if you take the time to look. Either look for Mantel tests, which are similar, or just google some of the DX12 reports.

http://www.anandtech...ia-star-swarm/3

That's testing an actual game engine running DX11, DX12, and Mantle. Same engine just using different direct-X code paths. On the GTX 980 moving from DX11 to DX12 is nearly a 3X FPS improvement using the same game engine without any optimizations.

But the fact remains that the market is small and DX9 is a requirement for MWO which prevents the update to DX12 on MWO's version of Cryengine. So there is zero point in working on it now.

Edited by MrJeffers, 30 July 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[nitra]

Imperius, on 30 July 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Please educate yourself please there are plenty of benchmarks... Also it doesn't take 12 months!!! More like 3 tops.

please educate your self, i stated "real world" not synthetic if all you look at is syntethic benchmarks to tell you how much better something is . then you still have a lot to learn about the pc industry

[nitra]

MrJeffers, on 30 July 2015 - 05:34 PM, said:

There are demos and games that show the advantages if you take the time to look. Either look for Mantel tests, which are similar, or just google some of the DX12 reports.

http://www.anandtech...ia-star-swarm/3

That's testing an actual game engine running DX11, DX12, and Mantle. Same engine just using different direct-X code paths. On the GTX 980 moving from DX11 to DX12 is nearly a 3X FPS improvement using the same game engine without any optimizations.

But the fact remains that the market is small and DX9 is a requirement for MWO which prevents the update to DX12 on MWO's version of Cryengine. So there is zero point in working on it now.

star swarm can not really be considered a real world bench mark either . albeit it is a better example than 3d mark and other tech demos. still, we will have to wait and see .

Edited by nitra, 30 July 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Domenoth]

MrJeffers, on 30 July 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

DX11 and Windows 7 is 17.x%, DX10 and Windows 7 is 7.x%. About 24%. The DX9 numbers there are DX9 hardware running WIndows Vista or higher OS. Those first two numbers are the ones that matter - both the required hardware and the required OS and it's only ~24%. It's a chart of OS version PLUS hardware support.


While I am not sure why the numbers are so low and don't add to 100%, the 70% that dont meet the requirements of Hardware *and* software to run DX10 or higher means they need either of both upgrades to even get to DX10. SInce the OS mix is predominantly Windows 7 in the other charts it seems to indicate that hardware is lacking on most systems. Although that should mean the DX9 numbers on the graphics chart should be higher since the graph is Vista/Win7 OS, so the other ~76% missing from the graph means either the OS isn't Vista or higher, or there is no DX version detected at all. Given that the latter is unlikely it seems more like an OS filter. But even it it's no direct X version detected, the fact remains that only about 24% is even remotely near supporting DX12 and even they need an upgrade.

Except that "DX9 Cards" and "DX8 Cards and Below" are listed on the graph. We know that all MWO players fall into at least the DX9 crowd because MWO only supports DX11 and DX9. If 70% of the sample doesn't even have DX8 or Below, then they sure as hell aren't palying MWO and are therefore not relevant to our discussion.

And just to make sure you understand what the discussion actually is, Russ said upgrading Cryengine to support DX12 cuts support for DX9. And looking at that graph, Out of 25.3% percent that matter (no DX8 and below because MWO doesn't support it) We're looking at about 1.5% still on DX9. 1.5% out of a total 25.3% is only about .06% of the sample that matters to us.

[Imperius]

Here are the numbers and where to find them why support 1%


Please learn how to read data

http://store.steampo...rvey/videocard/

DirectX 11 GPUs
78.19%
79.05%
79.15%
79.44%
+0.29%


DirectX 10.x GPUs
19.59%
18.82%
18.68%
18.36%
-0.32%


DirectX 9 Shader Model 2b and 3.0 GPUs
1.02%
0.96%
0.96%
0.94%
-0.02%


DirectX 9 Shader Model 2.0 GPUs
0.67%
0.65%
0.65%
0.64%
-0.01%


DirectX 8 GPUs and below
0.53%
0.52%
0.56%
0.62%
+0.06%

Edited by Imperius, 30 July 2015 - 05:45 PM.

[Domenoth]

Imperius, on 30 July 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

http://store.steampo...rvey/videocard/

Yes use that link. This one is just useless.