178 replies to this topic

[Hakija]

Zakatak, on 05 July 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

I know this will be interpreted as Mechwarrior bias, and it probably is, but I'm going to stand up for Battletech here.

"Warhound, the smallest Titan, could stomp on even an Atlas, and they weigh 4 times as much. They have mega-bolters and shields too."
Power estimates on those Mega Bolters and other weapons? I don't see them being much superior to the RAC/5, which is basically the same thing. Also, they move about 42kph at top speed, and have a crew of between 5-12, all trying to command the same clunky piece of hardware. Unless it is going up against an Annihilator or Urbanmech, I don't think it could "stomp" anything because most mechs are twice as fast as a Warhound. Not to mention that a single pilot manning a machine with synthetic muscles would be alot more fluid then a mech with 10 crew trying to power something full of actuators. Also, regarding shields. I don't get why shields = win. Mastur Cheef has shields, Elementals don't, so Cheef will never die because he has shields! How powerful are these void shields? They have problems with sustaining under constant fire, and missile massacre is what Battletech does best. Some sources say that Void Shields are "impenetrable barriers", but alot more suggest you can walk right through them. Aside from MG nests on the feet of bigger Titans, what defense does a Titan have against a Raven that snuck between its legs? The Warhound has 95mm of "Plasteel" (mass of plastic, strength of steel?) while a Leopard 2 has 400mm of nanocrystalline armor (or just Chobham Armor) on the front of the main turret. So... would this mean that the 21st century Leopard is several times stronger then the mighty Titan?

Well thought out, but I think there are several reasons people would vouch for the larger titans. They're big, they're heavy, and they're slow, but they have some things going for them.

1: The titan is intelligent. This only played up in some of the novels, but titans posses a sentient machine spirit that is actually held back by its crew. Unless I'm missing something, the function of the princeps (commander) is to direct what the machine shoots at, not directly control it. The moderatti (second in command) controls the mind impulse link between the two. This allows the titan to move and react far more fluidly than you might think.

2: Titans are partially powered by magic. There's just no telling what happens when you throw magic in the mix.

3: Titans posses significantly stronger firepower. The Imperator titan may carry what amounts to a large machine gun, but that gun can be the size of an entire assault mech. And rapid firing canons are some of the weakest weapons they have. They also typically mount heavy plasma weapons, long range missiles (real missiles, not LRM pea shooters) and artillery weapons. Their average range of engagement is around 2-3 klicks out. Assuming the titan can hit a mech, it should only take one shot to at least cripple it, probably kill it.

4: Titans are big. This may not seem like a major problem (size doesn't matter, etc) but it does play a small factor. The titans critical systems are scattered over a very large area, and the mech/gundam/whatever pilot would need to know where to shoot them cause critical damage. They have to aim for critical areas, avoid getting hit (or stepped on) even once, and negotiate whatever terrain they're fighting on all simultaneously. The titan crew can split these over multiple people and systems, improving their effectiveness.

I'm never going to say that its impossible to bring one down, but I believe it would be very difficult for any SINGLE unit from another series to do so. Teamwork and surprise would be essential

Edited by Hakiyah, 05 July 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[Fetladral]

Zoids would easily win against battlemechs
Iron Kong from Chaotic Century EZ-015
Gorilla Type
Zenebas/Guylos Empire Crew 1-2 Weight 187 tons Depth 11.5 m Height 17.7 m Maximum Speed 150 km/h Weapons Anti-Zoid Six-Shot Missile Launcher, Ten-Shot Self-Guided Rocket Bomb Launcher, Iron Hammer Knuckles (2), TVM Two-Shot Tactical SSM Launcher Equipment Composite Sensor Unit



Gundams from the UC I don't think would win and most of the other gundam series made the things nearly invincible. in Universal Century they are just more advanced better armored and generally better armed (not always though).

Though the Veritechs/Valkyries those may have a chance if the pilot is good just because of their insane maneuverability compared to battlemechs. But I wouldn't really count those since they don't even weigh as much as most of the scout mechs. Still awesome though.

Edited by Fetladral, 05 July 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Titans are superior, VT's are inferior, Battlemechs are the coolest.

My brother (who loves 40k along with me) likened it to thus:

titans are like walking battleships, battlemechs are more like figher jets.
I love the two, and Titans a lot for the above imagery

[Lily of Thrace]

I'd say Titans are the superior mech on that list, especially since they've evolved over the millenia to be gods of destruction.
Inferior, I'd say Zoids, because I have no idea what they are, and the name sounds like something from a children's cartoon.
Coolest, Battletech. That's why I'm here.

Edit: Oh wait, not, I voted VT as inferior at the last second rather than Zoids. I didn't play any of the previous Steel Battalion games, but the add for the most recent one just makes them look rather pathetic in comparison to most other mechs.

Edited by Katherine Kerensky, 06 July 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Zakatak]

Katherine Kerensky, on 06 July 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Edit: Oh wait, not, I voted VT as inferior at the last second rather than Zoids. I didn't play any of the previous Steel Battalion games, but the add for the most recent one just makes them look rather pathetic in comparison to most other mechs.

The new Steel Batallion mechs are nearly as bad as the game they are in (OUCH) since they are basically WWII Sherman tanks with legs on them. Actually, they are exactly that.

The original ones weren't bad. Not quite BTech quality, but not bad. You could get up to 80kph in most of them, as well as do this "sidestrafe" thing that was surprisingly fast. The 3rd generation versions in Line of Contact were fairly high tech, since they seemingly don't have that problem with computer eating microbes. Although the weapons seemed to have a muzzle velocity of like 100m/s, which was weird, although they did explode quite nicely. Good luck hitting a light mech/armored core in one of those.

Vulpes, you are the resident AC guy of this thread. How do the mechs in ACV compare to AC3/4 and Battlemechs? I was watching some gameplay, and they seemed... fairer. That skating/grinding thing they do still sketches me out though.

Edited by Zakatak, 06 July 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

AC:V mechs were designed from the get-go to be weaker in every way to make the game more open to new players and multiplayer environments.

But they have a couple cooler guns and swords.

[Vulpesveritas]

ANow they skate at 200-400kph, have slower firing weapons, more heat problems than the old ones, though less than a 'mech, and an AC still can take about as many hits from comparable weps to BT, a medium AC has armor on par with an assault mech or thereabouts I think.

[amadgnome]

Two other things to consider about Titans.
The void shields are basically solid walls of energy. Be in their area when the activate and you will be cut in half and killed. So running into a titan that still is shielded might unbalance it but whatever ran into it would suffer as if they collided with a solid wall.

Titans are also powered by massive plasma reactor. The creators of which no longer truly understand it's inner workings and it isn't entirely stable. So if it suffers catastrophic damage you get the releasing of what amounts to a small sun and a large explosion. So even in death the titan can kill it's enemies.

[Zakatak]

amadgnome, on 06 July 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Two other things to consider about Titans.
The void shields are basically solid walls of energy. Be in their area when the activate and you will be cut in half and killed. So running into a titan that still is shielded might unbalance it but whatever ran into it would suffer as if they collided with a solid wall.

Titans are also powered by massive plasma reactor. The creators of which no longer truly understand it's inner workings and it isn't entirely stable. So if it suffers catastrophic damage you get the releasing of what amounts to a small sun and a large explosion. So even in death the titan can kill it's enemies.

It's called Fusion, and Battlemechs are powered by it too. Both the Titan and Battlmech (and AC too I believe) are both powered by tiny artificial suns. The difference is that Battletech understands science, and the fact that fusion can't explode. The worst you'll get is plasma touching the reactor walls, heating it to a billion degrees. This is how BMechs go 'critical'. It isn't a nuclear explosion like the Titan though.

Edited by Zakatak, 06 July 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Zakatak, on 06 July 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

It's called Fusion, and Battlemechs are powered by it too. Both the Titan and Battlmech (and AC too I believe) are both powered by tiny artificial suns. The difference is that Battletech understands science, and the fact that fusion can't explode. The worst you'll get is plasma touching the reactor walls, heating it to a billion degrees. This is how BMechs go 'critical'. It isn't a nuclear explosion like the Titan though.

AC 1-3 mechs never have had their fuel source actually explained, however the two most popular theories are fusion or antimatter.
AC 4 NEXTs are powered by the ever so mythical "Kojima Particles" With a backup generator of the above.
AC 5 Mechs are fusion powered.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 06 July 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Catamount]

Fetladral, on 05 July 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Zoids would easily win against battlemechs

Some of the better ones, your beefier ligers, etc, would win against most of these franchises' mechs in one on one fights (not even remotely counting the exotic lostech style organoid stuff, because those are basically deus ex machinas that would beat almost anything), but of course, since there are many iterations of almost all of these franchises, it might depend on what we're pairing against what.

For instance, ACs aren't even really mechs in half the games; more like magical antigravity machines that operate in a universe where inertia apparently doesn't meaningfully exist (which means they should qualify no more or less than Unicron), though AC5 mechs would probably finally qualify, but in AC4 they're apparently basically nothing but flying do anything machines on which the "legs" constitute little more than ornate and seldom-used landing struts (hence, not mechs ).
There are like a dozen iterations of zoids, too, but I generally assume we're talking about the anime continuity.


Of course, on the other hand, if we're talking total military vs total military fights, zoids would lose to almost any of these powers, because they're constrained (insofar as we know) to a single planet, and only seem to number in the low thousands for the real capable guys (maybe low tens of thousands for the small, less capable ones?).



Maybe that's part of the problem here. This whole topic is somewhat poorly defined, so we seem to be making up some of the rules on what we're even comparing as we go along.

Edited by Catamount, 06 July 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Catamount, on 06 July 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Some of the better ones, your beefier ligers, etc, would win against most of these franchises' mechs in one on one fights (not even remotely counting the exotic lostech style organoid stuff, because those are basically deus ex machinas that would beat almost anything), but of course, since there are many iterations of almost all of these franchises, it might depend on what we're pairing against what.

For instance, ACs aren't even really mechs in half the games; more like magical antigravity machines that operate in a universe where inertia apparently doesn't meaningfully exist (which means they should qualify no more or less than Unicron), though AC5 mechs would probably finally qualify, but in AC4 they're apparently basically nothing but flying do anything machines on which the "legs" constitute little more than ornate and seldom-used landing struts (hence, not mechs ).
There are like a dozen iterations of zoids, too, but I generally assume we're talking about the anime continuity.


Of course, on the other hand, if we're talking total military vs total military fights, zoids would lose to almost any of these powers, because they're constrained (insofar as we know) to a single planet, and only seem to number in the low thousands for the real capable guys (maybe low tens of thousands for the small, less capable ones?).



Maybe that's part of the problem here. This whole topic is somewhat poorly defined, so we seem to be making up some of the rules on what we're even comparing as we go along.

And AC:V finally introduces the most awesome mech melee weapon ever: Swirling red laser/plasma blades of doom!

And in AC:V ACs are mass produced, unlike in previous games where at the Height of Raven's Arc in the AC3 saga, there were like... 50 or 100 pilots? Though MTs were in the thousands / hundreds of thousands and mass produced.
In AC:4/4a, NEXTs numbered in a couple dozen at their height, with "normals" in thousands / hundreds of thousands, and MTs in the millions.

If you don't know what an MT is, they're any non-AC, non-pulverizer mech in the Armored Core series. http://armoredcore.w...iki/Category:MT

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 06 July 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Dredhawk]

Sorry I say Gundam at least at close range most gundams come with beam sabers that can tear Mechs apart.......at long range Mech would far better.....

[Thorgar Wulfson]

Titans are beyond powerful, considering if you put them in the battletech universe they'd be armed with Naval weaponry, id say they'd win. Honestly not sure titans count as mechs more like mechanized cities, or walking battleships

so Titans got strongest
Destroids got weakest, as zoids can out maneuver them and if piloted by an angsty teenager they get special powers.
coolest went to zoids, cause piloting a wolf that can run 240kph with two massive cannons on its back is just fun.

[Vulpesveritas]

Correction on height of AC:3 saga, there are hundreds of them then. Still.

and oh what I would do for a PS2 again, or a computer strong enough for PCSX2... I miss my AC.

[Edward Newgate]

Ahem ahem,

what about this little fella here ?

the awesome "Ramrod"

Edited by Edward Newgate, 08 July 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Murku]

(Appleseed Manga, NOT Anime) Landmates > Heavy Gear > Battlemechs > VOTOMS > (Jovian Chronicles) Exo-Armor > Cthulutech Mecha > Macross > Evangelion > Gundam > Neo-Genesis Mospeada > blah > blah > blah > blah > blah > blah > blah > Transformers > Harmony Gold Robotech sh*te.

(Sorry Transformers fans)

Edited by Murku, 08 July 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

As far as combat superiority, I would have to go with Armored Core (namely, the NEXTs from ACFA; specific examples include White Glint and Nobelsse Oblige) or Gundam (since 00 is specifically mentioned, let's go with the 5th-gen Gundams built by Celestial Being (Qan[T], Zabanya, Harute, and Raphael)).

As far as 40K goes... the Titans are functionally equivalent to Arms Forts or Mobile Armors like the Alvatore, and the Titans' Void Shields very specifically do not affect non-directed-energy weapons (so slug-throwers, missiles, and physical blades will impact the hull, as will energy weapons used within the shield bubble) or entities attempting to pass through them.
A NEXT with a Vanguard Overed Booster or a Gundam using Trans-Am should be able to close with relative ease and deploy their firepower directly against the Titans' hulls and other systems.

There are also a number of Zoids that mount energy shielding systems, though IIRC they tend to be highly energy-intensive and highly directional - that is, the Zoid in question (a Hover Cargo) had to turn into an attack (a CPC blast from the Berserk Fury?) in order to project the strongest part of the E-Shield into said attack.

And basically everything else doesn't have the speed, armor, or sheer stopping power to deal with a Next or a Gundam.

-----

Also, I would like to submit for consideration two additional mech types:

1.) the HOUNDs from Chromehounds



Chromehounds trailer
Chromehounds intro
Chromehounds gameplay
(Note: "Chromehound" is the title for HOUND pilots, particularly those employed as mercenaries.)

HOUNDs are on the same scale as BattleMechs and tend to be armed with realistic, conventional weaponry (no directed-energy weapons of any sort).

2.) the Gears from Heavy Gear



Heavy Gear (video game) opening
Heavy Gear 2 opening and campaign start video
Heavy Gear 2 in-game tutorial (running on Win7)

Gears are generally on the order of 4-6 meters tall, and are equipped with a SMS (secondary movement system, usually taking the form of motorized wheels or tracks at the bottoms of the feet) for high-speed, skating-like movement.

Gears can be equipped with an assortment of weapons, including machine guns and rifles, grenade launchers and hand-tossed grenades, bazookas, missile and rocket launchers, laser and particle-beam weapons, railguns, and vibroblade weapons for melee combat.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 08 July 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Rayah]

Zoids are stronger. Why?

Death Saurer (Nearly wiped all civilization on Zi)
Death Stinger (Created from the Zoids used to destroy the 1st Death Saurer)
Geno Breaker (Power comparable to Death Saurer, smaller, faster)
Ultarsaurus (Was the strongest Zoid up until the Death Saurer, 2nd largest ever at 507 tons, 50m depth, 27.5m hieght, and 50 kph)
Liger Zero (Highly adaptable, fast, and a vicious fighter, like most Ligers)
Berserk Fury (Upgrades the Geno Breaker in almost every way)

^The above^ are all BEASTLY powerful, and not even the strongest.

And they don't have tissue-paper armor...



Battletech is cooler and the most realistic IMO though.

Edited by Rayzor, 08 July 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[Rayah]

Gamgee, on 04 July 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Imperial Titans are a class of their own. They can stomp on all of these alleged mechs. Even the largest of assault mechs look like tiny babies to the largest Imperial Titans.

Warhound Scout Titan
410 Tons

Can Titans survive the all consuming power of a black hole?