178 replies to this topic

[Rayah]

XV88 Broadside, on 05 July 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

Zoids: Not terribly familiar with Zoids, but I suspect my thoughts on gundams can be applied to zoids as well.

Not even close

[KageRyuu]

Actually 40k has more than Titans, there's also the Knights, smaller one man titans that can effectively equip only one titan scale weapon, as well as a plethora of lesser scale weapons, and if we're getting even smaller, Dreadnoughts and Sentinels, as well as straight up robots, and I'm not even talking Necron, I'm talking Imperial Robots, which are effectively similar to Dreadnoughts with a few special rules and a whole different feel. Regardless, Titan's are weapons of mass destruction with Capital Ship scale weaponry and armor, as for getting past their shields, you know what happens to people who try? They get vaporized because nothing can pass through the void shield, hence why they have to drop it every time to shoot (at least according to Lore and not the TT rules).

As for the rest:

VT are as their name implies, just vertical tanks, and as such only seem to feature one main weapon and maybe a machinegun, which makes them especially under gunned, as for size and armor, we can only assume that they are of lesser quality given the general quasi-WWII feel of Steel Battalion.

Gundam, or Mobile Suits in general have their mobility overplayed, but generally they are under armored seeing as only a single laser or beam sword/heat axe, or even just a gundam scale knife attack is enough to destroy them. As for their weaponry, they may be on scale with BattleTech, it's unknown.

Transformers however, most of them appear to be slightly smaller than a light sized battlemech, are susceptible to pain, and while they tend to appear to have infinite ammunition even for clearly ballistic weapons, their armor is their skin, and if a bunch of infantry with M203s can take one down, I doubt a BattleMech would have much trouble. But then again that depends entirely on the Transformer itself, some are clearly better armed or armored then others, while others clearly have the advantage of LAMs or other mobility assets. That aside I have to say that anything Transformers is inherently broken due to the fact that they effectively absorb the technology they are mimicking and thus can easily replicate anything a Battlemech could throw at them.

Armored Cores are like Gundams, generally mobility is over played as are beam swords, but in the end they appear to be slightly smaller than BattleMechs, and no where near as well armored. Not to say they couldn't give a BattleMech a run for it's money, just that they'd have to play to their strengths to do so. As stated before we can only assume the scale of the weaponry is equivalent while armor is lacking.

Destroids, despite sharing some earlier appearances with BattleTech, including all the LAMs and the Unseen, Destroids don't appear to be as well armored, seeing as generally a Destroid is destroyed in one or two shots. Though this could just be to make the action scenes faster for the benefit of the viewer. So again power scale very much on line with BattleTech if for no other reason then the Unseen mechs being part of BT lore, while armor appears lacking.

Zoid have always struck me as the odd man out seeing as they really love the idea of building machines of war in the shape of animals. That aside, a lot of the weapons and armor appears to be on par with BT stuff, despite an obsession with animal designs, the majority of which are quad.


There are also a number of mechs that aren't on the list, such as Wanzers (Front Mission), which if you ask me are by far the closest to BT tech and lore then any of the others, despite not having access to laser weaponry early on. As well as innumerable others that I won't even begin to delve into. But all in all, 40k has always been bigger, badder, and bloodier, while BattleTech more or less set the grade by which all others attempt to live up to.

So, Titans are the most powerful, after all they carry Capital Ship scale weaponry and obliterate entire blocks with a single shot, if not entire cities. Vertical Tanks are by far the weakest, being little more than bipedal WW2-esque tanks, while definitely BattleMechs are the coolest, with Wanzers, Zoids, and Destroids close behind.

[Friend Fox]

This all seems kind of pointless. Considering everything in here is fiction, the results of the first two categories, sans personal bias, pretty much comes down to whichever universe had the creator with the most (for lack of a better description) childish imagination.

I could create a mech universe too. Lets try this out.

Each of the machines is two feet tall and supports armor made of the physical manifestation of the dreams of kittens shaped and forged using the primordial energy of the big bang inside a 100kg forge with zero volume, thus creating infinite gravitational compression. (If you don’t like this sentence you might want to skip to the end of the post right now ) Obviously, they are impervious to external damage.

For armaments, standard issue semiautomatic railguns launch clusters of sentient mechanical turtles to surround the target. These automatons then become intangible, penetrating through the target, and proceed to ingest all combat-related system using the matter to self-replicate. Once finished, they expel excess waste in the form of filet mignon to feed the homeless and proceed to deactivate themselves. Standard side arms include high capacity 10mm handguns imbued with the vengeful ghost of James Cheney (historical civil rights activist and, unfortunately, martyr).

Their maneuverability leaves much to be desired, however. Unfortunately precision and long distance teleportation through molecular disassembly (akin to Star Trek methods) was deemed inhumane and witchcraft by society, one of which is frowned upon. With alternative methods requiring devices too large to maintain the aesthetics and dress protocols of most military units, more conventional methods of near-light speed travel must suffice. To complement these speeds within each mech a small porous orangutan shaped creature is contained which devours all known sources of electron based energy when berated. This creature, combined with kinetic-to-electric energy converters and antiquated recordings of sub-intellectual adolescents partaking in long distance theme based competitions, is used to instantaneously halt the mech, regardless of speed, for rapid changes in direction.

The power source of these machines is of course the indomitable American Spirit.
And yes these machines are manned. Despite current trends, humans evolved to be very small.

---TLDR:

The point I am trying to get across is that anyone can create the most stupidly powerful warriors in any universe, but it does not matter. What really matters is what people like. No one would like the universe I thought up just now because it is, by design, preposterous. So really the only category which matters is the last.
In other words, This:

Monolith, on 05 July 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

I think alot of the debate here is like a bunch of people arguing whose imaginary girlfriend is hottest.

In perspective, this really is a poll about preference.

Hope some of you enjoyed reading this wall of text as much as I enjoyed writing it. There was more but I think I have gone on too much already.

P.S. Yes this is my first post. For better or worse, I like to make an entrance I suppose. Glad to be here.

Edited by Highlander IIC, 08 July 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Zakatak]

KageRyuu, on 08 July 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

VT are as their name implies, just vertical tanks, and as such only seem to feature one main weapon and maybe a machinegun, which makes them especially under gunned, as for size and armor, we can only assume that they are of lesser quality given the general quasi-WWII feel of Steel Battalion.

I'm not talking about ones from Heavy Armor. 3rd Gen VT's can strafe and "skate" at about 200kph or so. They still have crap maneuvrability and medicore weapons though.





For sake of balance, let's do this.

Clan Invasion era Omnimechs
3rd Generation Vertical Tanks
ACV Armored Cores
Imperium Warhounds
Cartoon Transformers (no godbots)
Gundam 00 Mobile Suits
Original Zoids

Edited by Zakatak, 08 July 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Rainrix]

Where's Starsiege HERCs?

Imagine Cybrids vs The Clans!

[Strum Wealh]

Rainrix, on 08 July 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Where's Starsiege HERCs?

Imagine Cybrids vs The Clans!

So, I only played Earthsiege (both with and without the expansion) and Earthsiege 2.

Other than aesthetics, did the Cybrids change significantly between Earthsiege and Starsiege?

Quote

Cartoon Transformers (no godbots)

Which Transformers cartoon - G1 (the original as imported from Japan during the 80s)? Armada? Energon? Prime? Beast Wars/Beast Machines?

[Jeremy Hunter]

Uh, don't hurt me, buuu....

Gundam
Armored Cores (didnt know what that was)
And Gundam.


As much as I like BT...

Even the simplest grunt mobile suit can beat a BattleMech. If you make it a true-bona-fide Gundam, omg...

And, well, giant angel-winged Gundam firing a WTFBBQ all beam.

>_> >_> But ye. Just me. Being honest.


EDIT:

Um, Gundam 00 are still h4x suits. Exia could wipe out most lances with ease. You'd need Natasha Kerensky and all the other 'mech pilots that are like her/better then her to take out Exia. If it's grunt suits, the FLAG is still amazingly superior.

If you want to make it fair by adding Gundam, using the original Gundam and the Zakus/GMs would work better. Or Gundam Wing's Leos.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Jeremy Hunter, 08 July 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Transformer cartoon minicons / energon had godbots if I remember correctly... anyhow.

Let's do a quick comparison, shall we?


Clan Invasion era Omnimechs - Able to carry and fire a good number of weapons at once, well armored, though highly slow and not very manuberable
3rd Generation Vertical Tanks - Not able to carry many weapons, mediocre armor, fast but not maneuverable.
ACV Armored Cores - Able to carry a mediocre number of high powered weapons, a medium AC is armored on par with an assault omnimech, very fast and manuverable.
Imperium Warhounds - no clue.
Cartoon Transformers (no godbots) very few weapons, poorly armored, and while maneuverable are generally slow outside of vehicle form.
Gundam 00 Mobile Suits not able to carry many weapons, but what they have is high powered, not much in the way of armor, generally fast and mediocrely manuverable.
Original Zoids able to carry an average amount of average weapons, medium armor, mediocre speed and maneuverability. (in comparison to everything else.)

I rule:
Armored Core > Gundam > Zoids > Omnimech > VT > Transformers.

[CrackersPhinn]

This is kind of a bias subject to ask on a MWO forums. *shrug*

To be honest, wh40k titans of any class would outmatch most 'Mechs. Scout class titans alone are 15 meters tall up to ~60 meters for an emperor class. They also have ridiculously large guns compared to anything a 'Mech could field along with superior defences with thick armor and void shields. Think of a rapid firing heavy gauss cannon mounted on many of the titans, will give you some idea what they can bare.

Gundams again are ~19 meters in height still larger then any conventional 'Mech. Fire power on the other hand (strictly following UC timeline) have comparable fire power to the BT universe. Biggest advantage an average gundam/mobile suit would be a beam sable and insane maneuverability for their size.

Now comes to transformers. Unless you are Megatron, Optimus Prime, Starscream, Unicron, Metroplex, or anything like these guys 'Mechs would stand up quite well against them. Fire power that can match the energy weapons and missiles the transformers deploy and more, either IS/Clan 'Mech would be more than a match for any of them. 'Mechs can also be a few magnitude larger than the average transformer (being only ~9 meters) they could literally stomp them to death.

Armored Core would win outright for being so fast and hard to hit even with target lock sometimes. Size wise they are on the smaller end being ~10 meters tall, but they do pack a hell of a punch. The pure speed and nimbleness of their mecha's along with comparable fire power would seal the deal.

The rest I'm not so informed about so I'll leave those alone. My point is 3 out of the 4 universes I mentioned would curb stomp any BT 'Mech with pure stats alone, not much of a contest. I'm not saying that the poll numbers are wrong, but they are. lol

None of this really matter honestly because when it comes to coolness factor, which is what really counts, Battlemech is most awesome of them all.

Edited by CrackersPhinn, 08 July 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[Zakatak]

Why is everyone giving out points for being big and heavy? Big is BAD. If you can fit more power into a smaller chassis, you are harder to hit. Emperor class Titans have awesome weaponry, but you can see them coming 50 miles away (or more). Okay, so a Titan can attack you at 10km. But your enemy has 100km to plan his attack.

Puma/Adder is one of my favorite mechs because it is only 7 meters tall or so, and it has some mean punch.

Edited by Zakatak, 08 July 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[Dream Seaker]

My little nerdy mind exploded by the end of the first page X|

so much information...so late at night...

[Adm Awesome]

Not to be a Warhammer fanboy or anything... but you'd need to be a bit more descriptive with your Titans. We could be talking about and Emperor Battle Titan, which is the size of a city and has as many guns on it's shoulder as a Atlas has total.


but something like a Reaver Class Titan would probably fit a Battlemech a little better... though it would still kick it's *** xD

Edited by Adm Awesome, 09 July 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[Adm Awesome]

Actually nope I think I overestimated the height of a Battlemech... ok they're just plain screwed then lol

EDIT: Yay I totally forgot about the Paladin Class Imperial Knights! I think they would be the best match up

Edited by Adm Awesome, 09 July 2012 - 01:41 AM.

[Gamgee]

Void Shields on the Emperor Class Titan negate all but the most powerful and frequent of attacks. It's basically like using a black hole for a shield, sometimes there is just nothing you can do. Hence why other races have their own Titan equivallents. I love MW, but honestly this isn't a fight you can win.

[Catamount]

Gamgee, on 09 July 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Void Shields on the Emperor Class Titan negate all but the most powerful and frequent of attacks. It's basically like using a black hole for a shield, sometimes there is just nothing you can do. Hence why other races have their own Titan equivallents. I love MW, but honestly this isn't a fight you can win.

There's just one problem with that: powerful is a subjective term. What comprises a powerful attack? A megajoule? A petajoule?

To our military, a handful megajoules is fairly powerful in conventional warfare (that being the range of a shot from an MBT). Battletech seems to run shots somewhere in the high megajoule, low gigajoule range. Going to the other extreme in these types of franchises, Stargate has exhibited weapons ranging from multi-exajoule nukes (very large, unwieldy, exotic) to, in one case, a piece of technology that accidentally was used to make a solar system go away.


Since 40k has nearly no hard numbers of any kind published on any aspect of its technology (not even basics like ship lengths), it's almost impossible to get any real idea of how powerful anything is, but since this is a society that is mostly anti-science and anti-technology, that makes poor utilization of its resources for industry (with a large portion, if not the majority, if citizens living in conditions so primitive, horse-mounted spearmen are considered real military equipment on many worlds!), and sees little, if any, technological development, even over periods of thousands of years (and is actually regressing), color me skeptical on the notion that they're going to be fielding technology that would seriously threaten even a moderately advanced technological society.

Sure, you might have a hundred meter tall (or whatever) mech of doom, but if you're level of technology is such that a handful of megajoules is considered a "massive attack", then you're not going to be standing up to anything that tosses out gigajoule and terrajoule range blows like candy from its ground forces.

Edited by Catamount, 09 July 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[Black Rock Shooter]

Catamount, on 09 July 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Since 40k has nearly no hard numbers of any kind published on any aspect of its technology (not even basics like ship lengths), it's almost impossible to get any real idea of how powerful anything is, but since this is a society that is mostly anti-science and anti-technology, that makes poor utilization of its resources for industry (with a large portion, if not the majority, if citizens living in conditions so primitive, horse-mounted spearmen are considered real military equipment on many worlds!), and sees little, if any, technological development, even over periods of thousands of years (and is actually regressing), color me skeptical on the notion that they're going to be fielding technology that would seriously threaten even a moderately advanced technological society.

Sure, you might have a hundred meter tall (or whatever) mech of doom, but if you're level of technology is such that a handful of megajoules is considered a "massive attack", then you're not going to be standing up to anything that tosses out gigajoule and terrajoule range blows like candy from its ground forces.

40K does have very clearly published numbers on Titan dimensions, because the size of Titans actually translate directly into most versions of the game (it's a miniature game, not pen-and-paper). In non-Epic games an Emperor-class Titan is represented by a giant bucket representing one of its legs....

Thankfully, they're a bit more reasonable with the Reavers, but even then you'll end up with a giant monstrosity whose head is basically a ship's bridge with a crew of 3, behind which lies another bridge crewed by 2, behind which can be found a ********* full-sized engine room with a technopriest WALKING around inside. This is literally what the "miniatures" depict. You can pop the kit open and see that interior detail in its full glory.

Anyway, the sheer munchkin-ness of Titans will never translate well into the BT universe, so comparisons don't really make sense, especially since an energy unit for Titan weaponry does exist, and it's not megajoules but kilotons. A lot of Titans are armed with guns firing the equivalent of focused nuclear explosions from their barrels. If we want to do a reasonable poll, 40K Titans shouldn't even be in there simply because some of them are the equivalent of the Super Dimensional Fortress Macross in firepower. All Titans are inherently godbots.

The 40K in-universe explanation of how such OP weapons systems as Titans can exist is that they're basically lostech from the golden age of technology, long before the Empire was even an idea in the Emperor's twisted mind. While Titans are still being produced in the 40K universe, the technology to do so only existed in giant automated factories on Forge Worlds. Battletech is also guilty of the same sin on the subject of JumpShips, at least until the Clans arrived and brought back technology on how to produce real starships.

Also, if you're at all familiar with BT lore in the 3025 period, most planets in the Inner Sphere had regressed to 20th-century levels of technology by the end of the 30th century, with some planets in the Periphery even having regressed back to 17th-century levels. In that sense, there is very little difference between the Imperium of Mankind and the original Inner Sphere before 3039, except for the fact the Imperium started off from a far more advanced society and is much vaster in scope, allowing more worlds to regress through abandonment. For that matter, the original fluff of BT actually suggested that new BattleMechs came out of automated plants run by people who have no idea how they worked, just like Forge World inhabitants. This legacy lives on in some 'Mech backgrounds: The reason the OST series are so rare is because they were originally produced in only one such factory that got bombed out, and nobody knew how to rebuild it.

If it's possible to have Battlemechs in the BT universe, it's equally possible for Titan godbots to be running around in the Imperium. Same lazy fictional logic. The difference is that FASA decided to stop the downwards slide starting from the War of 3039 and brought in the Clans to restart humanity's technological development, whereas the 40K universe is content with its downwards slide (which works better with its lore).

[Vulpesveritas]

Black Rock Shooter, on 09 July 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

40K does have very clearly published numbers on Titan dimensions, because the size of Titans actually translate directly into most versions of the game (it's a miniature game, not pen-and-paper). In non-Epic games an Emperor-class Titan is represented by a giant bucket representing one of its legs....

Thankfully, they're a bit more reasonable with the Reavers, but even then you'll end up with a giant monstrosity whose head is basically a ship's bridge with a crew of 3, behind which lies another bridge crewed by 2, behind which can be found a ********* full-sized engine room with a technopriest WALKING around inside. This is literally what the "miniatures" depict. You can pop the kit open and see that interior detail in its full glory.

Anyway, the sheer munchkin-ness of Titans will never translate well into the BT universe, so comparisons don't really make sense, especially since an energy unit for Titan weaponry does exist, and it's not megajoules but kilotons. A lot of Titans are armed with guns firing the equivalent of focused nuclear explosions from their barrels. If we want to do a reasonable poll, 40K Titans shouldn't even be in there simply because some of them are the equivalent of the Super Dimensional Fortress Macross in firepower. All Titans are inherently godbots.

The 40K in-universe explanation of how such OP weapons systems as Titans can exist is that they're basically lostech from the golden age of technology, long before the Empire was even an idea in the Emperor's twisted mind. While Titans are still being produced in the 40K universe, the technology to do so only existed in giant automated factories on Forge Worlds. Battletech is also guilty of the same sin on the subject of JumpShips, at least until the Clans arrived and brought back technology on how to produce real starships.

Also, if you're at all familiar with BT lore in the 3025 period, most planets in the Inner Sphere had regressed to 20th-century levels of technology by the end of the 30th century, with some planets in the Periphery even having regressed back to 17th-century levels. In that sense, there is very little difference between the Imperium of Mankind and the original Inner Sphere before 3039, except for the fact the Imperium started off from a far more advanced society and is much vaster in scope, allowing more worlds to regress through abandonment. For that matter, the original fluff of BT actually suggested that new BattleMechs came out of automated plants run by people who have no idea how they worked, just like Forge World inhabitants. This legacy lives on in some 'Mech backgrounds: The reason the OST series are so rare is because they were originally produced in only one such factory that got bombed out, and nobody knew how to rebuild it.

If it's possible to have Battlemechs in the BT universe, it's equally possible for Titan godbots to be running around in the Imperium. Same lazy fictional logic. The difference is that FASA decided to stop the downwards slide starting from the War of 3039 and brought in the Clans to restart humanity's technological development, whereas the 40K universe is content with its downwards slide (which works better with its lore).

At the same time we look at the other end of the spectrum of munchkinsim, and we look at NEXTs in Armored Core. Ranging 15-25 meters in height, they are made to be nearly impossible to hit, able to make short distance boosting maneuvers at 2000kph+, sustained movement of 500-1000kph, and overboosting at up to 1500kph, with a vanguard system for long distance travels at once again, 2000kph+. Meanwhile defensively, whereas the void shield system is merely for directed energy weapons, a NEXT's Primal Armor is able to deflect any kind of attack, and when used as Assault Armor is impervious to even six Sol Dios cannon shots simultaneously (which said blast is on the low terrajoule level. [albeit this also kills your primal armor for 30 seconds - one minute]) Weapon wise, a NEXT has many high megajoule weapons available, along with a few gigajoule weapons, along with some which range into the high gigajoule ranges. And as a backup weapon, most NEXTs carry an energy sword capable of slicing through any armor. While not carrying a large number of weapons, or ammo for that matter, this gives NEXTs a definite advantage defensively when compared to a Titan, whereas the latter is large, slow, and armored, the former is small, armored plausibly better, as well as being capable of supersonic maneuvers that technically would kill the pilot, but through several deus ex machina elements in game, the pilots are not only invulnerable to the lethal g-forces, but also able to react faster than a normal human can, through the use of psychic pilots.

Not to mention, NEXTs are known to take down mecha on the scale of a larger titan in their own canon;


Of course, going down to the peons and more plausible mechs and away from the munchkins, AC5 mechs are still manuverable at 200-500kph when skating, overboost at up to 1200kph, and still carry weapons that can destroy a city. Namely take into consideration the 'overed' weapons with the giga missile, which is a cruise missile with a rather large warhead, able to do considerable damage and creates on impact what is if taking the scale of an AC into account, a four hundred meter wide blast. In scale, that is eight times the blast radius of a a current Tomahawk Cruise missile. Even if an AC can only carry one missile with the launcher, that is something rather considerable in the way of firepower. Even without the use of an overed weapon, sniper cannons and other powerful AC equipment are quite effective, if not such one shot weapons.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 09 July 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Zakatak]

Catamount, on 09 July 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

There's just one problem with that: powerful is a subjective term. What comprises a powerful attack? A megajoule? A petajoule?

To our military, a handful megajoules is fairly powerful in conventional warfare (that being the range of a shot from an MBT). Battletech seems to run shots somewhere in the high megajoule, low gigajoule range. Going to the other extreme in these types of franchises, Stargate has exhibited weapons ranging from multi-exajoule nukes (very large, unwieldy, exotic) to, in one case, a piece of technology that accidentally was used to make a solar system go away.


Since 40k has nearly no hard numbers of any kind published on any aspect of its technology (not even basics like ship lengths), it's almost impossible to get any real idea of how powerful anything is, but since this is a society that is mostly anti-science and anti-technology, that makes poor utilization of its resources for industry (with a large portion, if not the majority, if citizens living in conditions so primitive, horse-mounted spearmen are considered real military equipment on many worlds!), and sees little, if any, technological development, even over periods of thousands of years (and is actually regressing), color me skeptical on the notion that they're going to be fielding technology that would seriously threaten even a moderately advanced technological society.

Sure, you might have a hundred meter tall (or whatever) mech of doom, but if you're level of technology is such that a handful of megajoules is considered a "massive attack", then you're not going to be standing up to anything that tosses out gigajoule and terrajoule range blows like candy from its ground forces.

Warhammer suffers a lack of consistency even worse then Stargate does (BC-303 uses railguns and hypermeganukes that are equally effective???). A few figures ARE stated or accurately measureable. For example, the lasers of an Imperium warship are to be measured in "3-digit megajoules" while the Nova Gun is about 25 Yottajoules. One is laughably pathetic, one is terrifyingly ridiculous.

I'll do the math later and come back with my results, but to get an idea of how "effective" Battletech weaponry is, here is a good one: "3 shots of a PPC can vaporize 2 tons of military-grade armor". Standard Armor is composed of various layers of cubic boron-nitride, diamond, titanium honeycombing, and steel as well as unspecified self-sealing polymers. Combine the kJ/mol of all those together for an average, measure the required energy to vaporize 667kg of it, and get the output in joules (and then possibly a damage/joules conversion chart).

I can already tell from that alone that BTech weaponry is pretty damn understated in the games. And the armor is pretty damn good too.

Edited by Zakatak, 09 July 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Which is a lucky thing for BT fans, unlike AC fans where armor values and the like must be assumed. One point of view on it, is that an AC would appear to have ablative armor, such as is found on a BT, given how AP works in the game, and how repetitive small hits do more damage overall than one single large hit. Case in point, fighting tanks. Sure their cannons only do 100-150 AP (depending on your ballistic / kinetic and chemical energy defense) of damage compared to the 800 or so of a plasma rifle (depending on energy defense in older games, thermal energy defense now) , and you have ~8000AP or so (medium AC), but 50-80 rounds and you'll still be falling apart at the seams. (though that plasma rifle will finish the job comparably faster, in 10 hits or so. A plasma rifle in AC is described the same as a BT PPC in functionality, minus the armor damage fluff, as already covered.) (Those are AC3 values, not sure about AC4/5 given I don't have a PS3)

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 09 July 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[Applejack]

what, no HERCs?