183 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

I know...I used a bad word. But, I want to pitch an idea and see what the Forums think of it.


The most common complaint about IS to Clam balance is the engine, which is fair enough.

At the moment, the only nerf is an 80% heatsink nerf for engines, TrueDub or PoorDub.
People propose a speed nerf on top of that, or a more significant loss to one, or both of those aspects.


I wouldn't be wholly against it, but still slightly trepidatious about blanket nerfing things like the Myth Lynx and Cute Fox (again).

Perhaps bring that number to 75%, and also include speed. So, a Cute Fox, if it were to lose the ever important RT, would have 2 ERMLs remaining, with 3 PoorDub heatsinks untouched, but the 7 TrueDubs would drop from 8.05H/s to 6.0375 H/s dissipation. Speed would also drop from 107 Kph to 80 Kph...that would hurt.



As for the Normalizing part...change how isXL engines react to ST removal. It's an easy .XML to change the dying part, but not sure where penalties are added for ST loss.

STD300

Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_Std_300" id="3258">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\StdEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_300_desc" nameTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_300"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="12" weight="25.0" rating="300" sidesToDie="0" sideSlots="0" slots="6"/>

isXL300

Module faction="InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_XL_300" id="3358">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_300_desc" nameTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_300"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="12" weight="15.5" rating="300" sidesToDie="1" sideSlots="3" slots="6"/>

cXL300

Module faction="Clan" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_Clan_XL_300" id="3458">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_Clan_XL_Fusion_300_desc" nameTag="@Engine_Clan_XL_Fusion_300"/>
<EngineStats health="15" heatsinks="12" weight="15.5" rating="300" sidesToDie="2" sideSlots="2" slots="6"/>

Only important part here: "sidesToDie", going from 0-2. Penalties, again, I have no idea where they are. Not sure if they'd even be located on our client. If someone does know, please let us know. It should presently list the 80% Clan engine mounted +TrueDub heatsink nerf when it loses an ST.


The Normalisation...give the isXL a more severe penalty, to the tune of 50%, but let it survive the loss. The 2.3 H/s dissipation of 10 TrueDubs would become 1.15 H/s, although any PoorDubs mounted in the opposite ST or arm would be unaffected.

Speed would also be halved; so mechs would be noticeably less effective, running significantly hotter, while being an easier target...but still alive.

Example, this FS9-S (don't judge him!) which currently runs 142 Kph, has a 2.622 H/s dissipation and 63.36 heat capacity, and dead with a ST loss.

Proposed change brings that to 71Kph, 1.3915 H/s dissipation (1 PoorDub unaffected, one halved due to being in the engine), and 50.208 heat capacity, and while he may be fully armed, he cools at nearly half the rate, so he won't be shooting very much. That's while moving at an Assault mech's pace, with the same agility as a Warhawk.
But, again, alive.


Numbers could be fudged around with...but I wouldn't mind trying something like that. Perhaps too punishing, but it's no instant death.

Quirks may need to be touched down, such as bringing 3x RoF down to 2X, while giving armour or different weapon systems proper buffs. Huggin with 33/50% SRM4 and 50% MG RoF? Goes from 6 SRM4 DPS to 4 SRM4 DPS, but the equivalent to 8 MGs. Might even be worth taking the MGs...or not.


I know the Clam Apologists won't like the 5% nerf and significant speed loss
I know the Clam Whiners won't like the 25% discrepancy between factions and hate having quirks touched down
I know TT purists won't like isXL changes for ST death


What I don't know...is what the general consensus is on this?

Bridges one of the most significant gaps between Clam and IS tech, increases TTK, but changes a big enough mechanic, and a big balancing one at that. Still, nothing worse than what the cXL already does.


With PGI's upcoming "significant" balance pass, I'm wondering what they've come up with.

[STEF_]

My opinion always follows "the rules".
And then tuning by quirks.


Which is the opposite of what we have now: pgi never follows the rules and then proposes quicks too far out of the line.

[627]

why dont we add "engine quirks" for some mechs. General balancing stopped with the quirks system anyway.

So just add a quirk for all but the poor mechs that you lose $valueX if you lose the side. And the bad mechs just lose $valueY instead.

[kapusta11]

CXL is essentially a STD engine for half weight and increased accel/decel rate. With no info about enemy mech the fastest way to bring it down is by shooting CT, if you know it has ISXL engine it's ST. CXL doesn't change your/enemy's behaviour, there's no point shooting ST unless you're sure the opponent's using asymmetric loadout, the type of engine is not imprtant now. Cureent heat penalty for CXL engines is managable since you lose half of your loadout thus half you heat generation and. If you used sword and board build you pay the price for the advantage gained. Fair compared to STD engine, not really compared to ISXL.

In TT losing ST with CXL would generate 20 heat (10 for each engine crit lost) with much lower "heat cap" compared to what we have right now and probably shut you down. in addition you'd lose movement point or two, need to double check it, 1 MP = engine performance loss equal to mech's tonnage, so Timberwolf with -1 MP would move as if it had CXL300. -2 MP - CXL225.

Don't know what to do - follow the rules.

And please don't mention PoorDubs mechs, they above all else can be fixed with quirks.

[Lugin]

kapusta11, on 05 July 2015 - 12:51 AM, said:

In TT losing ST with CXL would generate 20 heat (10 for each engine crit lost) with much lower "heat cap" compared to what we have right now and probably shut you down. in addition you'd lose movement point or two, need to double check it, 1 MP = engine performance loss equal to mech's tonnage, so Timberwolf with -1 MP would move as if it had CXL300. -2 MP - CXL225.

10 heat total. 5 for each engine hit. (Third disables the mech.)
Sarna link

[Xetelian]

I'm 100% for XL normalizing. It isn't like we're all after the 'liquid metal' title.

[Milocinia]

I do think the disparity between IS and clam XL is a bit unfair. IS really doesn't have any middle ground at all and why on earth would any clammer want to take a STD engine?

Personally I think a better choice would be the introduction of the LFE for IS. I can't really see any balancing issues against it (other than timeline violations).

I think it would help reduce the necessity for quirks on IS mechs. There's a lot of emphasis on IS 'bots being either very durable or full on glass cannon. There's just this way or that and nothing that really sits in the middle. The Light Fusion Engine is the IS equivalent of the clam XL but sitting in the middle of the weight for STD and XL engines.

[Catra Lanis]

I'm all for letting an IS XL survive a torso loss and as compensation suffer a much more severe performance penalty. Clan XL would still be better but at least you don't die outright, there are some IS mechs that are not viable without XL.

[Wrathful Scythe]

I can see the STD dying out, if XL gets a big boost in survivability. While I'm all in for allowing IS XL machines to survive having a ST blastet off, I think the speed and heat penaltys aren't enough to keep everyone to run only XL on almost all mechs.

This tweak would change the balance in the game pretty hard. IS would have a big edge over Clanmechs, which can't change the engines. The Clans would need some kind of buff to balance that out. I know.... "buff" and "clan" in one sentence might sound like heresy for some IS pilots here but those same pilots hate clans for the sake of hating. The Balance is in a pretty good place nowadays. It has some rough edges here and there but it's working fine.

Also, it would make the life of new players pretty hard because of the increased cost of building a "good" mech. XLs are pretty darn expensive.

[El Bandito]

The day I can safely run with my XL Atlas is a good day indeed.

Mcgral18, on 04 July 2015 - 11:33 PM, said:

What I don't know...is what the general consensus is on this?

Bridges one of the most significant gaps between Clam and IS tech, increases TTK, but changes a big enough mechanic, and a big balancing one at that. Still, nothing worse than what the cXL already does.

Except 400XL Wubshee is has the potential to be a total monster with this change. Wait a minute, Mcgral drives 400XL Wubshee, and he is the one who made this thread. I see where this is going.

Also, wouldn't IS mechs packing XL engines means they can pack more firepower, thus at least partially nullifying the potential TTK increase?

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2015 - 02:23 AM.

[Nightshade24]

I kinda feel iffy that an IS mech could survie a ST explosion in your proposal...

I also want to add that for at least 50% of the clan mechs in game, the XL engine plays more like a Standard engine with nerfs then an XL with benifits as due to no endo steel, the weight saving benifits of the XL is lost. Thus there is no difference between a standard + endo to the XL + Standard.

I do not quite know...

I think the omnimechs XL is fine... but the Battlemech XL for the battlemechs... maybe get a bit slightly harder punishment?

[kapusta11]

Lugin, on 05 July 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

10 heat total. 5 for each engine hit. (Third disables the mech.)
Sarna link

Yeah, you're right, but it was still a lot, you dissipated more or less the same amount of heat you generated each turn so additional 10 or even 5 could shut you down, apply additional movement penalties, reduce to hit chance and the amount of weapons you can fire next turn. The point was that TT had much more severe penalties.

[Gladewolf]

...You generated an additional 5 heat per turn per engine hit in TT to a maximum of ten for ALL battle mechs....Double heatsinks meant that a clan mech without additional heatsinks someplace else would be reduced to dissipating either 15 or 10 heat...regardless of it's source....This also applied to the IS, However an IS mech with 10 standard would eventually explode, or knock it's pilot out if it kept active, because it'd have no way to dissipate heat....ever.

[Pjwned]

I think the proper answer is to still nerf the cXL accordingly, leave the XL alone, and then implement the light fusion engine (LFE) for IS mechs. I've said in the past that I would be opposed to adding the LFE due to it potentially being too powerful and invalidating STD engines, but after thinking about it over time I have since changed my mind because it could easily be balanced with an appropriate penalty on side torso loss, and obviously it would still be heavier than XL engines so I think the LFE should have a place in this game.

I don't agree with messing around with IS XL engines in such a way because the weight saving aspect is so big and it needs a rather large drawback to be properly balanced. Instead, if the problem is that IS mechs don't have enough options, then the LFE should be added as a middle ground between XL and STD engines, and all 3 engine types would have their uses while still maintaining clan engine superiority.

As far as the disparity between IS and clan mech engines, this just needs to be fixed by adding an appropriate penalty for cXL engines (and of course, the LFE would have the same penalty) instead of something that's barely noticeable at all that PGI plainly admits does not do enough.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 July 2015 - 04:57 AM.

[WatDo]

I think fixing IS XL's would be great. Some people might say it'd be dumb and would make LFE's a moot point but PGI REALLY doesn't like moving up the timeline if they don't have to. I don't want to wait another 2 or 3 years for a decent IS engine.

I would go so far as to suggest this: IS XL engines don't explode on ST loss, but instead act as if the mech was legged (without the drop to 15 kph or chain stun). Legging ontop of that would slow them down even more. Maybe have it mess with the cooling of the mech, but i think moving at 40 kph or lower already hurts a bunch.

For clam mechs i would suggest the same thing but much less severe. To compensate more if needed, take a ton or two off their engine weight?

[Water Bear]

I guess if you want to keep quirks (and all other balance changes) as they are now, then yes I can see doing this.

An implication of what I'm saying is that the imbalance between C and IS tech is still significant enough that a serious engine buff wouldn't push the IS over the top (or might not).

[Andi Nagasia]

its an interesting Idea but i dont agree,
what i would like to see is +10Internal Structure when you have an IS-XL equipped,

[El Bandito]

How about making IS XL mechs explode after 30-45 seconds when the ST is blown instead of dying instantly? Imagine the XL engine slowly failing due to extensive damage, and just gives up. Well, guys?

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[Wintersdark]

FOR BALANCE, CORE RULE IGNORE.

People like to say that if PGI would just follow TT rules, the game would be more balanced. . That's stupid. TT wasn't even close to balanced in terms of IS vs. Clan. Not even close. It wasn't even intended to be.

The ClamXL difference is a MASSIVE buff to Clan mechs, and requires a vast firepower increase via quirks IS side to attempt to compensate for. Not dying on ST loss is not a trivial advantage.

Still, the ClamXL doesn't make Clam mechs feel a lot different in combat, at least not compared to IS STD engine mechs. It's not a "flavour" change, like omnipods or Clam weapons.

So, DURING THE BALANCE PASS, make Clam and IS XL engines have the same, severe penalties on side torso loss(see McGrals post). Yes, this nerfs the cute fox and all crappie Clam mechs. STFU about that; this is the middle of the balance pass.

Allow all Clam mechs to switch between ClamXL and ClamSTD engines but not change rating. Allow all ClamXL mechs to add/remove FF/ES(but with fixed crit locatiins). This brings ClamXL mech construction to a balanced state where mechs aren't arbitrarily nerfing certain Clam mechs (see:Summoner, Nova)

Now, you have IS vs Clam, where the Mechs differences are still:

Clan weapons are lighter, but fire longer / bursts and are hotter

IS weapons are still heavier, but IS mechs can run XL's with the same threat level if they wish, and downgrade engines to pack simply more firepower if the feel so inclined. Is mechs will still need quirks, but nothing near the current state.

[Pjwned]

El Bandito, on 05 July 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

How about making IS XL mechs explode after 30-45 seconds when the ST is blown instead of dying instantly? Imagine the XL engine slowly failing due to extensive damage, and just gives up. Well, guys?

That's sort of similar to an idea I posted in another thread a little while ago, which was to make IS mechs take override heat damage if their XL side torso is lost, but I'm still not a big fan of it honestly.

Here are my thoughts on the matter if anybody is interested.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 July 2015 - 06:54 AM.