152 replies to this topic

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Then open your eyes ingame and check your range. I have both mechs. Ebon and 5SS. You still say the Ebon has more range?

You are just a Troll.
/ignore from now on.

[Koshirou]

Oh, I didn't see that "ignore" part (EDIT: Which apparently wasn't all it was cracked up to be, but oh well.) Suit yourself. Although the "from now" part is a bit ironic since you've ignored and/or failed to understand almost everything I posted in this thread anyway.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 01:35 AM.

[Jumping Gigolo]

If you're that "experienced" already then why do you have beef against Clan Mechs?

And why are you so fixated with cERLL range? If you are really are experienced in CW you know that a decent clan player will use cLPL instead of cERLL. *facepalm*

....

Just a genuine advise Koshirou, concentrate more on improving your overall in-game skills rather than your forum trolling capabilities.

[Koshirou]

Just for the benefit of those who are not "ignoring" me, these are my calculations:

cERLL + TC7 + Module:
EffRange = 740*(1+0.15+0.1) = 925
MaxRange = EffRange*2 = 1850

ERLL + TDR5SS Quirk + Module:
EffRange = 675*(1+0.25+0.1) = 911.25
MaxRange = EffRange* = 1822.5

I used the values given in the various openly available sources (wiki, smurfy.) If you believe these to be wrong, please point out the sources for values you believe to be correct. I can only work with the data I have.

Note that even with just the module, the 323 meter max range difference alleged by Marc cannot be explained in any way (unless TCs have been nerfed to affect range negatively.)

Of course, as Aresye Kerensky has correctly pointed out, these slight differences are functionally meaningless which is why I certainly won't be trying them out in "practice". No game I ever played was decided or even substantially influenced by plinking minimal damage at 1800 meters.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 01:57 AM.

[SeventhSL]

Don't stress about it Marc.

Earlier this thread I went trough this with an example of a C-ERLL on a tooled up Hell bringer (10% range module, 2.5% TC Mk1, no range quirks) vs TDR-5SS (25% quirk, no range module added). Of course the Ebon build provided (10% range module, 2.5% TC Mk1, no range quirks) has exactly the same range as the Hell bringer I used in the example but ha what can you do? I even tried drawing a picture.

Anyway I drive both mechs like you and totally get what your saying.

[Koshirou]

I'll say it again: If you cannot even be arsed to look at the build, there is nothing to discuss. And seriously, coming from you, whose miscalculations I corrected twice in this very thread, this is a bit rich again.

If you are trying to say that all TCs, including the TC7 I included, only provide 2.5% range improvements, please show me a source for that. I am not going to buy one just for the fun of it. As before, I'll happily admit that the underlying data I use may be obsolete, but then please point out where. Because the calculations are correct.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 02:08 AM.

[Jumping Gigolo]

you are always comparing it on paper with all these number-crunching. It's actually useless.

If you really play a lot of CW you should have realized that IS players don't get stomped from long ranges (600m beyond) instead Clan players close in at the optimal ranges of cERML and cMPL. the only true long range weapon used by clans are cLPL and cGauss.


And no decent Clan player will ever use a TC7 (TC7??? WTF!) just to have some cERLL range advantage of a TDR5SS. Yes you win the Math contest. The cERLL + TC7 + module Effing jaguar has a whooping 27.5meter range advantage over a TDR5SS with ERLL + module.

But in real combat... TC7??? really? On the other had, TDR5SS with that build is very common. Hence in real CW battles, IS has more range that Clans.

[SeventhSL]

Oh ha this might be a big misunderstanding.

Koshirou the TC MK7 only gives 7.5% range as per the in game tooltip. TC's had the snot patched out for them ages ago. You need to use 0.075 instead of 0.15 in your calculations. So.....

740 x (1 + 0.075 + 0.1) = 869.5

So basically a Clan mech running a 7 ton targeting computer still can't out range those IS mechs with the 25% to energy range quirk. Sad but true.

[Kin3ticX]

Jumping Gigolo, on 16 July 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

If you're that "experienced" already then why do you have beef against Clan Mechs?

And why are you so fixated with cERLL range? If you are really are experienced in CW you know that a decent clan player will use cLPL instead of cERLL. *facepalm*

....

Just a genuine advise Koshirou, concentrate more on improving your overall in-game skills rather than your forum trolling capabilities.

I havent been using C/ERLL in CW for months. Not even sure why the debate is even worth it. C/LPL does 13 damage at 660, 9.75 damage at 825m, 6.5 damage at 990. I dont personally use IS ERLL anymore either in CW. Prefer LLs on everything at this time for the shorter burn time. Most the the standoffs are at those ranges or closer now for various reasons including new maps. When all we had was Boreal Boreal Boreal all the time, ERLL was much more widely used.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 July 2015 - 02:19 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Thx SeventhSL. I need a break. Your words had been choosen very well. Thx for it. /bow

Edited by Marc von der Heide, 16 July 2015 - 02:21 AM.

[Koshirou]

Jumping Gigolo, on 16 July 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

you are always comparing it on paper with all these number-crunching.

Marc was the one to claim that the alleged IS range advantage was what allowed them to stomp their JF opponents. I think this is complete nonsense because in my opinion the only way that absolute range can decide matches in such a way is if one side voluntarily decides to play long range practice target. 1500m+ plinking is not what wins games, in general.

I just pointed out that even for these practically meaningless extreme examples the TDR-5SS advantage is not as large as Marc apparently thinks it is (as I said, even with just modules, nowhere near the 323 meters he claims) and that on this argument alone, his little anecdote does not hold up.

If you're saying that these builds are uncommon and Clan players usually won't bother with them: I absolutely agree. It was certainly not me who brought up the idea that a few meters of range at the extreme edges on some maps make any kind of meaningfull difference.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

Clan ER LLs with a suitably specialized build can actually still outrange that on absolute terms.

Not true.

Koshirou, on 16 July 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

I just pointed out that even for these practically meaningless extreme examples the TDR-5SS advantage is not as large as meaningfull difference.

Thats a difference.

Edited by Marc von der Heide, 16 July 2015 - 02:23 AM.

[Koshirou]

SeventhSL, on 16 July 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

740 x (1 + 0.075 + 0.1) = 869.5

Well, as I said, I went by the data in the wiki, and I'll be happy to be corrected on the premises. If it's been nerfed to that, then yes, the maximum range is a mere 1739 meters and the TDR-5SS holds a whooping 83.5 meter maximum range lead (nowhere near the claimed 323 meters.) As I said above, I don't think that amounts to any practical advantage in actual play and again I would assume that for ranges ~1500 meters the actual damage difference is miniscule.

But yes, my original assumption that the Clan Mech could outrange that was based on the numbers in the wiki. So, slightly off due to obsolete data. The "323 meters" claim, on the other hand, is just complete nonsense no matter which data you use.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 02:32 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

SeventhSL, on 16 July 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Oh ha this might be a big misunderstanding.

Koshirou the TC MK7 only gives 7.5% range as per the in game tooltip. TC's had the snot patched out for them ages ago. You need to use 0.075 instead of 0.15 in your calculations. So.....

740 x (1 + 0.075 + 0.1) = 869.5

So basically a Clan mech running a 7 ton targeting computer still can't out range those IS mechs with the 25% to energy range quirk. Sad but true.

All the number crunching you are all doing doesn't matter. Nobody uses TC 2-7s unless they are clueless so whats the point?. LPL + ERML is a big part of the real power driver in Clantech as they synergize well out to 675 meters. The LLaser and MLaser combo is not nearly as versatile. Fortunately there was the ghost heat shift for 3-4+ IS LPL, LL, ERLL which helped out a lot.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 July 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[Koshirou]

Kin3ticX, on 16 July 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

All the number crunching you are all doing doesn't matter. Nobody uses TC 2-7s unless they are clueless so whats the point?

Don't ask me. Someone else apparently thought a few extra meters of theoretically possible maximum range on ERLLs were what decides games in favor of the IS. If that were the case, surely Clan players would use every method at their disposal to rival that terrible IS advantage.
I should have kept my response to what I originally and correctly stated - that it was again a meaningless anecdote - and left it at that.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 02:58 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

I was fed up with this range nonsens. So I took a full range equiped ER LL 5SS vs a just ERLL equiped Clanmech. Voila you have the advantage. Look. Clans have Ghostheat at 3...IS not.

When you check the other quircks....you see the advantage. But for shure on all maps the Medpuls is better than the ERLL built. Except Boreal when the attacker is not pushing.


These quircks give more than just range.
[color=#FFFFFF]ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 15.00[/color][color=#DDDDDD] [/color][color=#FFFFFF]ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 15.00[/color][color=#DDDDDD] [/color][color=#FFFFFF]MEDIUM PULSE LASER RANGE: 25.00 %[/color][color=#DDDDDD] [/color][color=#FFFFFF]ENERGY RANGE: 25.00 %[/color][color=#FFFFFF]ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -15.00 %[/color][color=#DDDDDD] [/color][color=#FFFFFF]ENERGY COOLDOWN: 15.00 %[/color][color=#DDDDDD] [/color][color=#FFFFFF]MISSILE COOLDOWN: 15.00 %[/color]

VS

EBJ : Nothing...and that is better than negativ quircks.

Yes Clans and IS are nearly on one Level. But the crying about Clan nerfs need a counter crying..agree?

[Jumping Gigolo]

@ Koshirou - Now your switching the argument to another person. It was you who pointed out this Clan Range thing not only in this thread but on several other threads as well (which were eventually junked to the troll bin). Then you are admitting that Clan Range/damage/Speed advantage and IS Quirk/Heat Efficiency advantage all doesn't matter and it's all about the player.

So what is actually your beef about Clan Mechs in the first place? You said CW is atrocious because of Clan Mech are OP? Why can't you just admit there are more proficient Clan players who bother playing CW than those good IS players (usually members of elite I units) who prefer to play pub games instead?

....

This thread has been derailed thanks to Koshirou's trolling expertise. Congratulations you are indeed a great example to the Community. Going back to topic.... I have no issue with IS dropdeck getting more tonnage. If that will significantly lessen the complains and whines of IS players then so be it. Clan players will just have to adapt and adjust accordingly.

[Koshirou]

Jumping Gigolo, on 16 July 2015 - 03:06 AM, said:

It was you who pointed out this Clan Range thing not only in this thread but on several other threads as well

Where, and what do you refer to?

Quote

Then you are admitting that Clan Range/damage/Speed advantage and IS Quirk/Heat Efficiency advantage all doesn't matter and it's all about the player.

What? Where the hell am I supposed to have said that?

Okay, just a simple logical interjection here:
That one factor is more important than another does not mean that the less important factor is irrelevant.

If all that mattered was player skill, that would literally mean that it did not matter if you showed up in trials, or even in 3025-era stock IS builds.

Quote

So what is actually your beef about Clan Mechs in the first place? You said CW is atrocious because of Clan Mech are OP?

No, it is atrocious because of many, many things. Basically, all the things. The Clan tech is just one of many factors in that. But it is a factor, if but a subordinate factor in the overall problem of faction balance and its complete non-existence.

Quote

Why can't you just admit there are more proficient Clan players who bother playing CW than those good IS players (usually members of elite I units) who prefer to play pub games instead?

Let's just assume for sake of argument that this is true (and yes, I mostly play pub these days as well): Why do you think that happens?

P.S.: 10 tons in the drop deck will not change anything and I would actually rather assume the OP was being sarcastic in order to highlight the current CW imbalance.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 03:23 AM.

[H I A S]

Koshirou, on 16 July 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

Just for the benefit of those who are not "ignoring" me, these are my calculations:

cERLL + TC7 + Module:
EffRange = 740*(1+0.15+0.1) = 925
MaxRange = EffRange*2 = 1850

And using 7tons for the TC. ggthx

[Koshirou]

HiasRGB, on 16 July 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

And using 7tons for the TC. ggthx

Yes, that's a rather brain-dead build. But if the TDR-5SS (can we just rename the IS to "The TDR-5SS guys", since this appears to be the only relevant IS Mech?) and its mighty ER LL range was such a grave threat, you would certainly use 7 tons to rival this terrible advantage, right?
Unless, of course, you maybe thought that this was not such a big deal. Y'know, like a sane person.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 03:21 AM.