152 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

K: "Clan Mechs dominate the competitive meta."
CFB: "Nuh-uh! They don't, because anecdote!"
K: "Here's some numerical proof that they do."
CFB2: "Well, competitive is different from CW, because of reasons!"

TL;DR: Nice shifting of the goalposts there.


Not sure if serious...

How possible when IS so bad?

Edited by Kin3ticX, 15 July 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[Khereg]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

That's a bit rich, innit? Considering that the only one to use anything other than unfounded opinions and anecdotal evidence was yours truly.

You keep saying you're using data and analysis to reach your conclusions, but all I see are the very anecdotes you rail against. The examples you posted from RHoD show enough matches that contradict your hypothesis to nullify your argument, for example. So, for all your vaunted data, you've willfully misinterpreted what you see to support your pre-existing point of view. Don't lecture me on unfounded opinions.

PGI has the real underlying data you need to make your case and won't be releasing it to you, me, or anyone else. This is the very thing I said initially. I also said I don't have the time or energy to go track down a bunch or circumstantial evidence, but you're free to keep looking. RHoD is one tournament played under a specific set of rules. Look for other tournaments if you want. Most of the MLMW matches are on YouTube. You can see many examples of IS-heavy teams represented there.

Unfortunately, I realized too late how invested you are in your point of view and I'm not interested in stepping further into the tarpit of this discussion.

To throw you a bone, I'll say this: Like Kin3ticX said, there is a minor tech gap, but the main difference in performance in CW is a result of pilots and teams, not mechs. The IS has plenty of options for solid performance in CW and there are plenty of players performing just fine with them against Clans. "Clan OP" is a crutch.

[Hydrocarbon]

Lol, that's like saying Spain is the world's SUPERPOWER by citing it's strength back in 1587. Technically CW stats from 3mo ago are like world empire stats from 1400 BC if Ancient Egypt was the first in 3100 BC...


228: Mercs that flip-flop, however the vast majority of their current tags are on CJF planets...

TCAF: Liao Loyalists that only attack IS houses

AS: if they DO play CW, they don't do enough to get any planet tags; personally I've only seen them in the non-CW group queue

The rest: only NS & 12DG have enough wins to get tags on 16 planets combined, all others individually have less than 6 each



Another thing: a godly w/l doesn't mean much when you barely play CW, and even then a supergroup only needs a w/l of a hair over 50%...

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 15 July 2015 - 12:32 PM.

[Koshirou]

Khereg, on 15 July 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

You keep saying you're using data and analysis to reach your conclusions, but all I see are the very anecdotes you rail against.

The problem is with your eyes, or rather with what's behind them.

Quote

The examples you posted from RHoD show enough matches that contradict your hypothesis to nullify your argument,

Not if you know how numbers work. I see I was a tad bit optimistic when I told you that you "will plainly see" because that requires a grasp of basic maths that's obviously eluded you so far. This becomes painfully obvious when you think that by picking "enough matches" you can somehow disprove the others. My little analogy above went right past you, too, didn't it?

Just FYI and for the laugh, I counted the Mechs used in the playoffs of the tournament I referred to. A mere 77 out of 240 were IS Mechs (=32.1%), and 52 out of those, more than two thirds of the IS total, were lights.
A few spots weren't showing in the screenshots due to the usual disconnection issues. I assumed - although this was not really warranted - that half of these were IS.

So, yes, I will continue to lecture you on unfounded opinions, because you have made it quite clear that your opinions are unfounded.

P.S.: If anybody wants, I can crunch the numbers for the whole tourney that way, but for that I demand a gift, say 7 days premium time, through the gift store. Not willing to do that work for the benefit of someone who is not capable of understanding it anyway.

Edited by Koshirou, 15 July 2015 - 03:20 PM.

[Aresye]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Thankfully, this kind of nonsense is so common that I can simply copy/paste my previous posts:

Clan Mechs dominate competitive gaming. The Clans dominate CW (and we can really stop pointng at a short post-Tukayyid lull as alleged counterproof by now.) These are facts. Everything else is more or less well founded speculation.

Competitive play does not equal CW, CW does not equal solo/group queue, and competitive play definitely does not equal solo/group queue.

So by that very statement, you cannot say that Clans are OP as fact because they see a heavier use in competitive play.

For example, the STK-4N is one of the best mechs...period...when it comes to CW, and a firing line of them is going to be extremely tough for any team to break. The STK-4N however, is a very poor choice for the solo/group queue. The maps are different, the playstyle is different, and its advantages are mostly cancelled out entirely.

The Hellbringer is along the same lines. It's fantastic for CW, but doesn't do so hot in the solo/group queue.

Competitive play has more factors that go into it other than sheer firepower. Hardpoint location, movement, clockwise vs. counter-clockwise rotation, firing line positions, etc. all play a role in which mechs are picked.

Competitive play is also about playing to as many advantages as possible, and for that reason, the holy trinity of Clans (DWF, TBR, SCR) end up seeing a lot of use, simply because they are the best in their weight class. A team deciding to take an Ice Ferret instead of a Stormcrow is making just as dumb of a decision as another team taking an Orion over a TDR-5SS for short range brawling. Not all mechs are equal, and quite frankly, the game would be rather boring if they were. The important thing is if you stick an IS team against a Clan team on a balanced map, will teamwork decide the match, or will the tech? So far from personal experience and watching a lot of competitive play, teamwork plays the largest role, so the tech imbalances that do exist (because they do) are at least minimal, and don't require such drastic adjustments as people call for.

[seija]

SeventhSL, on 08 July 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

The clan stuff does look good on paper but if you sit down and do some proper calculations you will be shocked. If I told you that an IS ERLL on a TDR5SS out ranges (about 198m more) and out brawls the C-ERLL and is just better in every way even after you use that spare ton on a clan double heat sink you simply wouldn't believe me. All this without factoring in the IS ghost heat advantage boating the weapon and the negative perks on some clan omni pods.

Anyway do the math. It will blow your mind.

just a little info for you, the ISERLL hard caps at 1500m. check it for yourself.

[SeventhSL]

seija, on 15 July 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

just a little info for you, the ISERLL hard caps at 1500m. check it for yourself.

If you keep reading on from my comment you will see that the hard cap was mentioned. It was then disproved and found to have been removed. Anyway it is all there for you to read.

You are not the only one surprised by the fact the cap isn't there anymore. I found out the hard way in a CW game on Boral when my CERLL + range module + targeting computer mk1 hell bringer was utterly out sniped by a thunderbolt and even at ranges beyond my own.

Edited by SeventhSL, 15 July 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[Kain Demos]

SeventhSL, on 15 July 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

If you keep reading on from my comment you will see that the hard cap was mentioned. It was then disproved and found to have been removed. Anyway it is all there for you to read. Your not the only one surprised by the fact the cap isn't there anymore.

It was patched a few months ago so anyone still claiming a hardcap clearly doesn't read.

[SeventhSL]

Sorry Kain you ninja'd me while I was editing but yes you are correct. The cap was patched out.

[Aresye]

Love people who post without a clue that the range cap was removed. Just proves to show how some people just simply argue about balance by repeating what other people say. No personal experience necessary. No being up to date on patch notes and balance changes required. All that's required is an opinion, and that makes automatically makes them an expert.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

LOL Yes. The screenshoot was on Boreal ....and Yes we had a lot of 911+ ER Large Laser Mechs and killed the range advanced Clanmechs on long distance. Hell I didn t even tried to evade ER PPCs. They didn t harm me or not much at my longrange...but whatever. Say Clans have the range advantage. The truth is: Clans can just brawl atm and you need Thunderwhupps to compete with the SRM /Medpuls Mechs of the Clans. Yes KCom stomps IS....but they brawl!

[Koshirou]

Marc von der Heide, on 15 July 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

LOL Yes. The screenshoot was on Boreal ....and Yes we had a lot of 911+ ER Large Laser Mechs and killed the range advanced Clanmechs on long distance.

Clan ER LLs with a suitably specialized build can actually still outrange that on absolute terms. So if you wanted to prove something that no one disputes, namely that having access to high-end builds for a variety of situations as well as player skill, organization etc. are factors that on a single match level easily outweigh the Clan tech advantage: You've done that. What you have not done: Provided even the slightest evidence that this advantage does not exist.

[Jumping Gigolo]

I'm just curios Koshirou. Are you really playing CW?

[Koshirou]

Jumping Gigolo, on 16 July 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

I'm just curios

That's not the word I would have used to describe you. And I'm not referring to the spelling. Are you sure you did not mean "incapable of reading"? Or "trying to insult people for lack of actual arguments"? Or even "a bit slow" if you were to be really harsh with yourself?
Because "curious", and much less "curios", does not mean any of those things AFAIK.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 12:45 AM.

[Koshirou]

Kain Demos, on 15 July 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

More than once larger units have gone to the northern houses and pushed the clans back.

Wake me up when the northern houses have taken a total of ~300 originally Clan worlds between the three of them. (Just kidding. That's not even possible.)

Quote

CW is driven by where the largest units are, end of story.

Well, on second consideration, I'll give all of you who hammer this point as if it contained a silver ore vein that: This is slowly becoming the truth. Mostly because everyone except the "largest units" has either already given up on CW or soon will.

These "largest units" can likely continue to do what they are mostly doing now - churn through hapless newbie pugs who are caught like deer in the headlights - until CW's (and possibly MWO's) reputation has dwindled to the point where fresh supplies of aforementioned newbie pugs will no longer be available in sufficient quantities to replace those who quit in frustration.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Your built has not the needed range to compete. Sorry you miss around 323m max range.

So Yes..Do you play Clanmechs? No? K I understand.

[Jumping Gigolo]

@ Koshirou

My direct question simply ask for a "Yes" or a "No" answer. No need to quibble or say anything unnecessary.

Ok I'll ask one more time:

Are you really playing CW?

Edited by Jumping Gigolo, 16 July 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[Koshirou]

Marc von der Heide, on 16 July 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Your built has not the needed range to compete. Sorry you miss around 323m max range.

911.25 x 2-323 = 1499.5
What on Earth makes you think that with TC+Modules, a cERLL has a maximum range of 1499.5 meters, when it has 1480 meters stock?

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Why do you think that IS ER large on 5SS with 1823m effective range is less than the max range of Clan ER Large laser?.

You claimed that Clan ER laser outrange the 5SS built. THAT IS WRONG. There are more range monster. Raven 4X? 940m base range.

Get it.

[Koshirou]

Jumping Gigolo, on 16 July 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

@ Koshirou My direct question simply ask for a "Yes" or a "No" answer. No need to quibble or say anything unnecessary. Ok I'll ask one more time: Are you really playing CW?

Of course not. My recent promotion to Chu-sa was awarded for, and I quote, "extraordinary accomplishments in the area of ridiculing Clanners who pose stupid questions they could have easily answered by opening their eyes".
I am also looking forward to my promotion to Tai-sa. I've already completed 95% of my "sailing self-referential irony right past the heads of clueless forum warriors" requirements.

@ Marc
If you cannot be arsed to even look at the build I've posted, read my previous response, and do some multiplications yourself, there is nothing to discuss. What do you think, with your vast experience in piloting EBJs, which I certainly lack, the maximum range of the ERLLs on that build, incl. modules, is?

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 01:07 AM.