152 replies to this topic

[Koshirou]

Crockdaddy, on 11 July 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

The IS range cap was removed several patches ago.

I haven't used ER LLs since I revamped my 3L. But as I said, if that is the case, that specific argument no longer applies. I must've missed the announcement.

I don't think it's terribly relevant since technically, the Clans can still beat even the 5SS mounted laser on range, and even using non-silly TCs can rival it to a degree that any alleged advantage is minimal, but mea culpa.

P.S.: How do you think you shooting at me with an IS ER LL on Boreal is ever going to happen?

Edited by Koshirou, 11 July 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Aresye]

Koshirou, on 11 July 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

I haven't used ER LLs since I revamped my 3L. But as I said, if that is the case, that specific argument no longer applies. I must've missed the announcement.

I don't think it's terribly relevant since technically, the Clans can still beat even the 5SS mounted laser on range, and even using non-silly TCs can rival it to a degree that any alleged advantage is minimal, but mea culpa.

P.S.: How do you think you shooting at me with an IS ER LL on Boreal is ever going to happen?

I think this whole argument is dumb regardless. Know how much "effective" sniping I do with CERLLs in CW at 1500m+?

The answer is zero. Sometimes I'll poke a player from that range to get them moving, because often the only people shooting that far are complete noobs that don't understand max ranges, so I'll scratch their paint with maybe 1pt of damage to scare them into actually regrouping with their team and playing the game.

I get headshots more often than I kill people at 1000m+ ranges, and usually it's gauss instead of CERLL that does it.

No matter who's shooting who at 1500m+, the damage is so miniscule it's barely even worth the effort to fire in the first place. I could simply stand still and let some noob scratch paint for over 5min at those ranges, and watch in amusement at how many times they shut down before my armor turns from yellow to orange and I begin to question my source of entertainment in the game.

There are a lot of things that are game breaking. Whomever can shoot whom at 1500m+ and get an actual hit registration on their crosshair is pretty far down on the list of things that actually impact the balance of the game.

[Kain Demos]

Aresye Kerensky, on 12 July 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

No matter who's shooting who at 1500m+, the damage is so miniscule it's barely even worth the effort to fire in the first place. I could simply stand still and let some noob scratch paint for over 5min at those ranges, and watch in amusement at how many times they shut down before my armor turns from yellow to orange and I begin to question my source of entertainment in the game.

You can say that again. One of the most hilarious moments I had in CW was on boreal when the 6 x LL stalker was new and this guy continually just sat completely still in the open at the very extent of his range tickling me while I pumped him with PPCs and Gauss.

Edited by Kain Demos, 12 July 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Koshirou, on 11 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

EDIT: That is a miscalculation. According to my own way of calculating this, and according to your formula as well, the actual value is ~7.1 - so in other words, the 5SS range buff does compensate for the higher base damage, granted, but not dramatically so.

You are correct. I have modified my post. My intention was to show damage change at the tipping point. Clan 0.2 more at 900 and IS 0.2 more at 1000.

So not really a big deal right? Sure a well coordinated team like NS can really push this advantage home on a map like Boral but there are strategies available and other weapons to counter this. The point of my original post was to explain that IS don't need an extra 10 tons because unlike a couple of earlier comments Clan tech just simply isn't better. It may look better on paper but when you do the calculations and factor in things like heat, burn time, shielding and quirks it is a different story. Mostly it is equivalent but forces a different play style.

In the example of ERLL the IS tech is superior even at the Clan's traditional strength of damage at longer range. The thunderbolt isn't the only mech with "Energy range 25%" and that quirk does similar magic to all IS energy weapons not just ERLL. Gee there are other IS quirks just as crazy in other areas.

In summary the state of the map isn't a reflection of balance but where the merc units currently are. IS doesn't need more tons because their tech isn't underpowered compared to Clan. Some IS quirks really need to be rolled back or have negatives added to balance them.

[SeventhSL]

Crockdaddy, on 11 July 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

The IS range cap was removed several patches ago. I'd provide the link but a far easier demonstration would be to run into NS on Boreal and do some snipe trading with us. You can let me know first hand how my ERLL love feels at over 1500 meters.

I ran into NS (great respect for these guys) on Boral several times last event. It doesn't feel good over 1500 let me tell you. Big shock to the system getting hurt badly beyond my maximum range. We were down 15 mechs before they even opened the gates and down 30 to 3 before the clanners finally gave up trying to out trade at long range. What surprised me was those Blue beams of doom didn't go down without a fight in the brawl either. Impressive build and stratergy by the NS guys. Forced me to do raw calculations and changed my views on clan tech.

[Leiska]

SeventhSL, on 12 July 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

In summary the state of the map isn't a reflection of balance but where the merc units currently are. IS doesn't need more tons because their tech isn't underpowered compared to Clan. Some IS quirks really need to be rolled back or have negatives added to balance them.

While player quality is by far the most significant factor, you're kidding yourself if you think the tech bases are balanced. Do you follow the competitive meta? It's completely clan dominated and there seems to be a rather strong consensus among competitive players that clan tech is clearly better, and even more so now that some of the negative quirks were greatly reduced. The only exception is the light weight class, though that might change once the Arctic Cheetah eventually becomes available for tournament play.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone should even have to try to explain this to you when the numbers are so obvious. While disadvantages like long burn times hurt the ideal of poking and retreating without taking return fire, we're talking about engines that are for all intents and purposes IS standard engines at half the weight, weapons with weights up to 50% off compared to the IS counterparts, laser ranges of up to over +60% compared to IS variants, not to mention significantly more damage on all energy weapons. And you cry about 10-25% quirks? Really now?

Or perhaps the issue is heat? That's like saying one laser is better than two because two produce more heat. When you install a clan laser, you essentially get more laser than with an IS variant, so of course there is going to be more heat. There is more damage, too. Sure, the heat efficiency of some clan lasers is slightly below IS versions, but that's nothing you can't overcome with 33% smaller heatsinks, especially when you have all that free space from clan endo/ferro and smaller weapons.

Edited by Leiska, 12 July 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[Khobai]

clans should get 10 more tons IMO

[Koshirou]

Leiska, on 12 July 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Do you follow the competitive meta? It's completely clan dominated and there seems to be a rather strong consensus among competitive players that clan tech is clearly better,

I've mentioned this time and again, but to no avail.

[SeventhSL]

Leiska, on 12 July 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

While player quality is by far the most significant factor, you're kidding yourself if you think the tech bases are balanced. Do you follow the competitive meta? It's completely clan dominated and there seems to be a rather strong consensus among competitive players that clan tech is clearly better, and even more so now that some of the negative quirks were greatly reduced. The only exception is the light weight class, though that might change once the Arctic Cheetah eventually becomes available for tournament play.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone should even have to try to explain this to you when the numbers are so obvious. While disadvantages like long burn times hurt the ideal of poking and retreating without taking return fire, we're talking about engines that are for all intents and purposes IS standard engines at half the weight, weapons with weights up to 50% off compared to the IS counterparts, laser ranges of up to over +60% compared to IS variants, not to mention significantly more damage on all energy weapons. And you cry about 10-25% quirks? Really now?

Or perhaps the issue is heat? That's like saying one laser is better than two because two produce more heat. When you install a clan laser, you essentially get more laser than with an IS variant, so of course there is going to be more heat. There is more damage, too. Sure, the heat efficiency of some clan lasers is slightly below IS versions, but that's nothing you can't overcome with 33% smaller heatsinks, especially when you have all that free space from clan endo/ferro and smaller weapons.

Where to start with this lot? Well I guess you said the numbers are so obvious so I'll start there.

You say clan laser range is over +60% compared to IS?? Let's do the calculations and see.

IS-ERLL vs C-ERLL = (1-(675/740))x100 = 8.8% and -16.2% after IS quirk
IS-ML vs C-ERML = (1-(270/405))x100 = 33.3% and 8.3% after IS quirk
IS-SL vs C-ERSL = (1-(135/200))x100 = 32.5% and 7.3% after IS quirk
IS-LPL vs C-LPL = (1-(365/600))x100 = 39.1% and 14.1% after IS quirk
IS-MPL vs C-MPL = (1-(220/330))x100 = 33.3% and 8.3% after IS quirk
IS-SPL vs C-SPL = (1-(110/165))x100 = 33.3% and 8.3% after IS quirk
IS-LL ha no Clan equivalent.

So we can see there is clearly nothing like a 60% advantage for clan and that 25% IS energy quirk makes a significant difference.

If your willing to conceded you are way out on laser range then I'll bother to comment on some of your other points because as I've said from the start of the thread "when you look at clan tech on paper it is OP but when you factor in heat, tons, slots, burn time, ghost heat, heat , quirks etc it is a comply different story".

[Koshirou]

SeventhSL, on 13 July 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

Where to start with this lot? Well I guess you said the numbers are so obvious so I'll start there.

You say clan laser range is over +60% compared to IS?? Let's do the calculations and see.

Your way of calculating this is off. A "+ X %" type of expression refers to an increase expressed as a percentage of the lower value, which is calculated by (1- (higher value)/(lower value)) x 100%.

Example: Clan LPL vs IS LPL: (1-(600/365)) x100% = +64%

Non-MWO example: If your $2000 salary is increased to $3000 it has been increased by 50%. Not 33% as your calculations would have it.

As to your general remarks I have the exact opposite view. While you can, for some extreme examples, demonstrate parity or even slight superiority for this or that IS weapon or Mech, the overall "package" of Clan Mech mobility, firepower and staying power is just better. This is considerably exacerbated by the fact that most of the common Clan workhorses have identical (high) speed and can maneuver together quite effortlessly.
Another important factor is how accessible this power is. Building a halfway good Clan Mech is easy. Even a stock Stormcrow Prime is a reasonable Mech. On the IS side, only a handful of highly specialized meta Machines are worth bringing, and the vast majority of players is not completely equipped with them.

And last not least: Clan Mechs dominate competitive gaming. The Clans dominate CW (and we can really stop pointng at a short post-Tukayyid lull as alleged counterproof by now.) These are facts. Everything else is more or less well founded speculation.

Edited by Koshirou, 13 July 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[Chagatay]

Clan LPL and IS LPL are completely different animals, you really can't compare them. They are both solid but for different reasons.

Clan LPL is really the clan LL as the ERLL of the clans is lackluster IMHO (somewhat reasonable burn times at 1.12 sec or whatever). Good Heat/Most Ranges/DPS.

IS LPL is like a precision scapel. A medium/short weapon able to give your opponent a dirt nap in short order. Insane DPS/Brawling/Good Heat

[Appogee]

I could certainly use those extra 10 tons.

It would be even better if PGI actually varied the total drop weights for different planets.

Variety. This game needs more variety.

Edited by Appogee, 13 July 2015 - 04:32 AM.

[GutterBoy5]

Clans don't need nerfing , they are suppose to be more powerful /quicker/harder to kill, this is in game. But the IS should have greater numbers , this isn't in game , this could provide the balance needed without nerfing every dam mech . I don't understand why pgi can't do 10 v 12 in CW? Or why not( if 10v12 to difficult) clans have 3 mechs per dropship/IS current 4 for dropship this would simulate great numbers IS have .

Thoughts?

There should also be higher Cbills in CW this in itself would encourage more people to play CW.

[Koshirou]

Chagatay, on 13 July 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

Clan LPL and IS LPL are completely different animals, you really can't compare them.

And yet, I just did. Seemed to work well enough, if you ask me.

Edited by Koshirou, 13 July 2015 - 05:07 AM.

[SeventhSL]

Thanks Koshirou. Yes that is how you calculate increase and I have given decrease. Two ways of saying the same thing and both ways used in the comment I replied to. So yes we could say that a C-ERML is a 50% increase in heat from an IS-ML or we could say that an IS-ML is a 33.3% decrease in heat from a C-ERML.

A picture says a thousands words so I've included the image below to give a scaled graphical representation of normal and maximum range. State it as increase or decrease but you can see clearly that the 25% quirk is very significant.

http://www.cimtak.com/images/mwo.jpg

The state of the CW map or the results of CW events are not an indication of mech balance. They simply indicate where the merc units are currently fighting. TeamSpeak, coordination and player skill wins battles.
An extra 10 tons in the drop deck isn't going to change that.

Edit: For whatever reason my browser won't let me imbed the image.

Edited by SeventhSL, 13 July 2015 - 06:55 AM.

[Khereg]

Appogee, on 13 July 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

It would be even better if PGI actually varied the total drop weights for different planets.

Variety. This game needs more variety.

I could get behind this, but I think you'd get a lot of griping that many players either don't have the mech variety needed to build decent drop decks every time the planet changes, or that players don't want to be bothered with doing so on such a frequent basis.

Personally, I'd find it a blast to see a drop limit of, say, 150 tons with 4 mechs required on a specific planet. Light on light action for a 48 mech shootout? Yes, please.

Likewise, make a 320 ton deck and watch the assaults lumber around for 30 minutes. Might have to extend the clock for that one...

This seems like an easy way to get variety and change up the meta on a regular basis, but I could see casual players struggling with the added complexity it would bring to CW.

[Aresye]

Koshirou, on 13 July 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

I've mentioned this time and again, but to no avail.

Clan weapons were supposed to be better, at least in their planning and initial execution. Spread ACs, long duration lasers, and lack of PPFLD weapons were all put there purposefully so that Clan mechs could retain "some" of their advantages, but requiring a higher degree of skill to utilize.

In that context, it shouldn't be any surprise that the top players in the game feel Clan tech is more powerful. They actually have the skill required to fully utilize each and every Clan advantage, but when it comes to average players in the game, the higher damage output and maneuverability are not as big of a factor, because they don't push Clan mechs to the extremes like comp players do.

That's why (in general) Clan pugs in CW running a mix of non-meta loadouts and trial mechs generally lose to IS pugs. Quirks, non-adjustable hardpoints, and good weapon mounts all make it relatively difficult to screw up an IS build, whereas with Clan builds, players can build whatever monstrosity they want, often building mixed bracketed loadouts with each and every type of weapon + the kitchen sink. They also tend to build symmetrical loadouts, putting things like machine guns in their TBR's torso hardpoints while putting their lasers in the much-lower mounted arm hardpoints. They have no shield side, they don't take advantage of hardpoint locations, and they often don't utilize their maneuverability as part of their engagement.

Who do you really think is going to win: An average TBR pilot w/ 4 CERML (2 each arm), 2 CLRM-10, 2 CMGUN, or an average TDR-5SS pilot w/ 7 MPL?

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 13 July 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Koshirou, on 13 July 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

I've mentioned this time and again, but to no avail.

There is a tech gap which has been narrowed some with quirks. However, the tech gap only becomes a real factor when two teams of near equal skill meet each other in CW. IS has some really good options but there is a certain tech gap remaining. It prevents us from making close approximations to Clan loadouts with IS 'Mechs. We can get around a lot of this by leveraging the available super quirks of certain 'mechs. Ignoring quirks for a moment, trying to match alpha, range, and armor often means you also can't match speed and cooling. Some major spec will be unmatchable. If you try to match the speed too often you have to accept using an XL and that has its own inherent glass cannon effect.

TLDR, there is a tech gap, but it is a non-factor in CW if the team skills are mismatched by a lot, use the quirks if you play IS, you can't easily approximate Clan mechs spec for spec in all ways but IS does have good options.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 13 July 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Absolutely agree that if you try and match the builds and thus the strengths of the other sides technology you will fail in some major aspect. This is an intentional design.

E.g. IS trying to match speed and alpha damage in the heavy class won't happen without some other huge trade off. The same can be said about a Clan light trying to match IS speed in the light class. It can't be done because clan tech won't let you swap engines.

The skill and challenge in this game is to play to your strength and stop the enemy playing to his. If you don't do this and try to build mechs that play the enemies game then yes you will suffer at the sharp end of his tech advantages.

[Leiska]

GutterBoy5, on 13 July 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Clans don't need nerfing , they are suppose to be more powerful /quicker/harder to kill, this is in game. But the IS should have greater numbers , this isn't in game , this could provide the balance needed without nerfing every dam mech . I don't understand why pgi can't do 10 v 12 in CW? Or why not( if 10v12 to difficult) clans have 3 mechs per dropship/IS current 4 for dropship this would simulate great numbers IS have .

Thoughts?

You can't do this or most everyone would flock to clan mechs simply because most people prefer more individual power (can't be bothered to carry so many bad players), as well as the greater c-bill and xp rewards it brings.

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 July 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

That's why (in general) Clan pugs in CW running a mix of non-meta loadouts and trial mechs generally lose to IS pugs.

I'm pretty sure clan pugs dominate IS pugs more often than not. That is what my experience tells me.