152 replies to this topic

[B L O O D W I T C H]

GutterBoy5, on 13 July 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Clans don't need nerfing , they are suppose to be more powerful /quicker/harder to kill, this is in game. But the IS should have greater numbers , this isn't in game , this could provide the balance needed without nerfing every dam mech . I don't understand why pgi can't do 10 v 12 in CW? Or why not( if 10v12 to difficult) clans have 3 mechs per dropship/IS current 4 for dropship this would simulate great numbers IS have .

Thoughts?

There should also be higher Cbills in CW this in itself would encourage more people to play CW.

This is because of the public query. As of now, where you can drop with 12 random mechs vs12 random mechs, you can hardly balance this if, for example one team was 3 trebuchets and 3 catapults and the other team has 3 stormcrows and 3 timberwolfs. matchmaker simply can not ballance this issue. therefore Pgi went the long way and tried to balance a timberwolf with a thunderbolt. which they actually managed somehow. (aka quirks)

[RacerX]

I've been playing a lot of CW over the last few weeks with organized 12 mans and with pugs. I've played vs 12 mans and vs pug clan units. Essentially 99% of my matches have been total IS stomps. It's not the tactics because I've been with some units using sound tactics. It's the killer ECM umbrellas, the range, the armor, the massive alphas, the glass jaw XL engines, and the speed that's been blowing us into the ground. Yes there are ECM counters but those are crazy tough to employ with any regularity. The clan units get the easy umbrella and the IS teams need to really work for it. The Hellbringer gets preferred tonnage, firepower, and speed with ECM and the Storm Crow gets preferred tonnage with BAP built into every model. For the IS to field the same we need to make some major sacrifices. Teamwork does play a factor but not only factor. I would love to see PGI's data on Clan vs IS matches and mech/mech K/D. Saying that all IS pilots suck will only take you so far with this argument.

[Aresye]

RacerX, on 13 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

...and the Storm Crow gets preferred tonnage with BAP built into every model.

Ummm...no it doesn't. You could put BAP on it if you wish, just like any other mech.

[Kin3ticX]

RacerX, on 13 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

I've been playing a lot of CW over the last few weeks with organized 12 mans and with pugs. I've played vs 12 mans and vs pug clan units. Essentially 99% of my matches have been total IS stomps. It's not the tactics because I've been with some units using sound tactics.

You are sort of contradicting yourself. Serious question. If you are losing 99% of the time then how do you know you are using sound tactics?

Yeah there is a tech gap but that doesn't explain away your terrible W/L. Your unit is doing something terribly wrong. Like I had said many places, the tech gap only starts to matter more if you have two teams of near equal ability against each other. There are still powerful options for Inner Sphere pilots. If you limit the LRM use to 4-6 of 48 mechs, then mass ECM will not cause as much feast or famine while using them.

[TWIAFU]

RacerX, on 13 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

I've been playing a lot of CW over the last few weeks with organized 12 mans and with pugs. I've played vs 12 mans and vs pug clan units. Essentially 99% of my matches have been total IS stomps. It's not the tactics because I've been with some units using sound tactics. It's the killer ECM umbrellas, the range, the armor, the massive alphas, the glass jaw XL engines, and the speed that's been blowing us into the ground. Yes there are ECM counters but those are crazy tough to employ with any regularity. The clan units get the easy umbrella and the IS teams need to really work for it. The Hellbringer gets preferred tonnage, firepower, and speed with ECM and the Storm Crow gets preferred tonnage with BAP built into every model. For the IS to field the same we need to make some major sacrifices. Teamwork does play a factor but not only factor. I would love to see PGI's data on Clan vs IS matches and mech/mech K/D. Saying that all IS pilots suck will only take you so far with this argument.

How "crazy tough" is any one of these to deploy?

1. Hit J Key
2. Hit Bound UAV key
3. BAP
4. TAG
5. NARC
6. PPC

More like to "crazy lazy" to deploy while solo.

Last PGI data we had, from Tuyk Event, Clans won matches 53% of the time. So, just about right considering Tech at this point in time line.

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 July 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

Ummm...no it doesn't. You could put BAP on it if you wish, just like any other mech.

BAP to counter ECM? Means dropping 1.5t ammo!

Counter ECM and loose 1.5t mmo or complain about ECM and want it nerf'd?

Guess what they will choose?

Can have 3.

[Leiska]

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 July 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

Ummm...no it doesn't. You could put BAP on it if you wish, just like any other mech.

I think what he was getting at is that crows tend to boat streaks, so they include BAPs in their builds. IS streaks blow, so the only BAP mechs you see are LRM mechs. Unfortunately LRMs also suck in a CW setting.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Nope. Clans need more mechs cause....then IS can do more damage..more kills..means more C Bills and more GXP....

[Koshirou]

A: "Overall, college educated people make more money than people without such an education."
B: "Not true! My boss has only a high school degree and he makes, like, twice as much as I do!"

Think about what is wrong with this kind of argument, ponder it really hard and then please realize that even the 53rd time you post about how you clobbered a Clan team as IS or vice versa or whatever will still be as foxtrotting meaningless as the first time!

[Khereg]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

A: "Overall, college educated people make more money than people without such an education."
B: "Not true! My boss has only a high school degree and he makes, like, twice as much as I do!"

Think about what is wrong with this kind of argument, ponder it really hard and then please realize that even the 53rd time you post about how you clobbered a Clan team as IS or vice versa or whatever will still be as foxtrotting meaningless as the first time!

The problem as I see it is that the people making the initial claim that clans are OP aren't providing the evidence to back it up, except as the same kind of anecdotes you're disparaging here.

PGI has the data, but for very good reasons isn't going to release it to the general public. However, the fact that the entire quirk system has been developed and implemented serves as indirect evidence that clans were, in fact, OP in the past. PGI has a vested interest in keeping the game fair and ultimately you either trust them to continue tweaking things to achieve that or you don't.

I'm not white knighting for PGI. I just know that the argument can't be settled conclusively with what we have available to us and I don't have the time or energy to try to prove the case one way or the other. I play CW as both IS and clan and I'll tell you that I don't personally have any more trouble making mechs pop when I'm with IS than I do when I'm with clan. Anecdote? Yes. But hey, it's all I have.

Edited by Khereg, 15 July 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[Araevin Teshurr]

Did they remove trial mechs from CW yet? That would help.
What is this **** about a new EU server? Game population is already in the toilet, now they will divide it further.
Sounds like the Iranian Nuke deal - give state sponsers of terrorism $150,000,000,000, that will help.

[Koshirou]

Khereg, on 15 July 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

The problem as I see it is that the people making the initial claim that clans are OP aren't providing the evidence to back it up, except as the same kind of anecdotes you're disparaging here.

Thankfully, this kind of nonsense is so common that I can simply copy/paste my previous posts:

Clan Mechs dominate competitive gaming. The Clans dominate CW (and we can really stop pointng at a short post-Tukayyid lull as alleged counterproof by now.) These are facts. Everything else is more or less well founded speculation.

[Khereg]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Clan Mechs dominate competitive gaming.

No, they don't. I play competitively and know the builds. You're just wrong on this point.

In fact, I have a relevant counter-example: In the recent MLMW tournament, my unit fielded an A and B team. I was on the B-team and we were scheduled to play our A team in a best of 3 that was a strict tonnage-based match. No additional restrictions on mech selection.

We lost 2-1 (as expected). The one match we won we brought a mix of Stalker 4N's and Raven 2X's - nothing else. It was a bold strategy, Cotton. Our A-team brought mostly Clan HBR's, TBR's, and SCR's, with some IS mechs included (A Stalker of their own and a Thunderwub, IIRC).

There were lulz aplenty on our teamspeak that day, I assure you.

Additionally, we're gearing up for our next tournament and just yesterday were filling out our available builds and I can tell you that our current roster has more IS than Clan in it. I won't get into specifics for obvious reasons, but I think I've made my point.

Quote

The Clans dominate CW

Units dominate CW, not mechs. I'll prove it thus: both -MS- and 228 are in FRR for the next week. Let's see what happens to the FRR's borders over that time.

What you've seen up to now is the fact that KCom, 228, -MS-, and several other large and/or skilled units have been predominately with the clans since the Tukkayid reset. Combined with the diminishing CW population, they have had an outsized influence on borders in the clans favor.

Edited by Khereg, 15 July 2015 - 07:57 AM.

[Koshirou]

Khereg, on 15 July 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

No, they don't. I play competitively and know the builds. You're just wrong on this point.

No, I am... well, I'd never say I'm right. I'd just say I can prove my points with actual arguments instead of anecdotes.

http://www.runhotord....php?eventid=57

This is a listing of the matches in the most recently(?) concluded RHoD tournament. As you will plainly see by looking at the linked match results, the only IS Mechs which show up regularly are lights.

Quote

In fact, I have a relevant counter-example:

No, you have another anecdote. If you want relevance, please provide listings of the Mechs used in all the matches of this tournament and quantify the results.

Quote

Units dominate CW

That's again unmeasurable conjecture. What we can measure quite well is which factions dominate CW. And the verdict is unambiguous: CJF, CW, CSJ. And it is even more striking if you look at their performances vs. their direct IS opponents (that is, the Northern Houses.)

It is completely irrelevant whether you speculate that this dominance is because of units' preferences or whatever, since it is again just that: Speculation. What is not speculation: That the clan side has completely dominated their direct IS opponents in CW phase 2, and has only marginally less completely dominated them in phase 1.

It is doubly irrelevant, by the way, because even if this imbalance was due to certain unit behaviour, it would still need to be addressed.

You simply substitute wishful thinking about how CW would allegedly work under fictional conditions for an analysis of how it actually does work under real conditions.

Edited by Koshirou, 15 July 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Thankfully, this kind of nonsense is so common that I can simply copy/paste my previous posts:

Clan Mechs dominate competitive gaming. The Clans dominate CW (and we can really stop pointng at a short post-Tukayyid lull as alleged counterproof by now.) These are facts. Everything else is more or less well founded speculation.

There is a lingering post quirk tech gap but it is not the biggest factor in CW. The tech gap only becomes an issue when you have two teams of near equal ability against each other. In those situations, the tech gap may have an impact on the outcome. In many matches, the game is decided by pilot quality and the techbase mattered not. Inner Sphere has some powerful options in CW. However, if the CW IS players are not properly leveraging those quirks, then the current tech gap is amplified.

The CW meta is not entirely the same as the Rhod meta, it really does have its own subtleties. The competitive chassis screening process used to pick 'mechs in Rhod is way way more meticulous than CW.

TLDR, if you are getting stomped over and over by Clans you would probably get stomped by the same players in IS 'mechs.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 15 July 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Khereg]

Thanks Kin3ticX. He's clearly heavily invested in his opinion. I don't think ugly things like reasonable counterarguments are going to have much of an impact here.

[Kain Demos]

Koshirou, on 15 July 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

No, I am... well, I'd never say I'm right. I'd just say I can prove my points with actual arguments instead of anecdotes.

http://www.runhotord....php?eventid=57

This is a listing of the matches in the most recently(?) concluded RHoD tournament. As you will plainly see by looking at the linked match results, the only IS Mechs which show up regularly are lights.


No, you have another anecdote. If you want relevance, please provide listings of the Mechs used in all the matches of this tournament and quantify the results.


That's again unmeasurable conjecture. What we can measure quite well is which factions dominate CW. And the verdict is unambiguous: CJF, CW, CSJ. And it is even more striking if you look at their performances vs. their direct IS opponents (that is, the Northern Houses.)

It is completely irrelevant whether you speculate that this dominance is because of units' preferences or whatever, since it is again just that: Speculation. What is not speculation: That the clan side has completely dominated their direct IS opponents in CW phase 2, and has only marginally less completely dominated them in phase 1.

It is doubly irrelevant, by the way, because even if this imbalance was due to certain unit behaviour, it would still need to be addressed.

You simply substitute wishful thinking about how CW would allegedly work under fictional conditions for an analysis of how it actually does work under real conditions.

More than once larger units have gone to the northern houses and pushed the clans back.

CW is driven by where the largest units are, end of story. Whoever can fill up the queue more wins.

[Koshirou]

Khereg, on 15 July 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

I don't think ugly things like reasonable counterarguments are going to have much of an impact here.

That's a bit rich, innit? Considering that the only one to use anything other than unfounded opinions and anecdotal evidence was yours truly.

[Koshirou]

Kin3ticX, on 15 July 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

The CW meta is not entirely the same as the Rhod meta, it really does have its own subtleties. The competitive chassis screening process used to pick 'mechs in Rhod is way way more meticulous than CW.

K: "Clan Mechs dominate the competitive meta."
CFB: "Nuh-uh! They don't, because anecdote!"
K: "Here's some numerical proof that they do."
CFB2: "Well, competitive is different from CW, because of reasons!"

TL;DR: Nice shifting of the goalposts there.

Kain Demos, on 15 July 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

Whoever can fill up the queue more wins.

Not sure if serious...

Edited by Koshirou, 15 July 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Kain Demos, on 15 July 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

More than once larger units have gone to the northern houses and pushed the clans back. CW is driven by where the largest units are, end of story. Whoever can fill up the queue more wins.

We can also separate the microgame from the macrogame. A lot of the complaints are about match level stomps vs the direction the map borders take, but there are complaints how that works too.

[Hydrocarbon]

When everything is equal & skill is not in the short-bus range, IS has a definite brawling edge. At range/poking or when the pilots play like 1-handed 3yr olds, the clamz have a definite edge.

The big difference is ECM & mercs. 4+ ECM mechs affect even 12-man coordination, and supergroups can match nearly anything even with non-meta mechs.

ECM: limit the number per drop by negating a random ECM module after a certain number have entered the match. Or make friendly ECM interfere with each other, reducing each unit's range.

Mercs: Loyalists get up to a 15t bonus (both IS & clamz) - 5 tons per CONSECUTIVE month played on that faction.

Balance: make some sort of rolling average of battles won, territory size change, etc - and allow THAT to balance each faction somehow. Have it alter the tonnage or hitpoints for each player that plays in that faction's attack/def battles by the inverse square root of it's territory change (obviously based on a global constant to not screw factions with huge or tiny base holdings). Double your holdings and the modifier is sqrt(1/1.5)= 82%; your 100t mech now has 82t armor & structure points, or your 240t dropdeck now holds only 195 tons.