152 replies to this topic

[SeventhSL]

Well you know feel free to blame me for this epic conversation. I made the mistake of pointing out to a guy on page 2 (he was complaining about clan tech and CERLL at 1500) that it was a whole different story when you did the calculations.

Of course the real point was that IS don't need 10 tons due to tech imbalance.

Edited by SeventhSL, 16 July 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Koshirou]

SeventhSL, on 16 July 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Well you know feel free to blame me for this epic conversation. I made the mistake of pointing out to a guy on page 2 (he was complaining about clan tech and CERLL at 1500) that it was a whole different story when you did the calculations.

Yes, but you then did the calculations wrong. So, you based your calculations on up-to-date assumptions, but fudged the math, while I used obsolete assumptions, but calculated correctly, and some other people just pulled numbers out of their hats (those 323 meters will remain a mystery for all eternity.) That was not exactly conductive to a clear picture.

Quote

Of course the real point was that IS don't need 10 tons due to tech imbalance.

No. Because that would not even begin to address the problem.

As I've written several pages ago: Musing about the effects of this or that game mechanic is speculation. What we can see is: The Clans have completely dominated their IS opponents in CW - both in Beta 1 and in Beta 2. And competitive players in the examples I am a aware of use Clan Mechs a lot more than they use IS Mechs.
These two facts suggest a clear imbalance between Clans and IS on both the strategic and the match level. Without acknowledging that - and as far as I can see, most of you don't - all discussion about the nitty-gritty reasons is pointless to begin with.

[H I A S]

Koshirou, on 16 July 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

Yes, that's a rather brain-dead build. But if the TDR-5SS (can we just rename the IS to "The TDR-5SS guys", since this appears to be the only relevant IS Mech?) and its mighty ER LL range was such a grave threat, you would certainly use 7 tons to rival this terrible advantage, right?
Unless, of course, you maybe thought that this was not such a big deal. Y'know, like a sane person.

Nope

HBR-PRIME

TDR-5SS

For Longrangetrades i prefer the 5SS.
More DPS, lower Burntime, cooler and so on.

Edited by HiasRGB, 16 July 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[SeventhSL]

Oh lol Koshirou.

Edited by SeventhSL, 16 July 2015 - 03:58 AM.

[Koshirou]

HiasRGB, on 16 July 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

Nope

HBR-PRIME

That looks like an even more brain-dead build. Kudos!

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[Aresye]

Koshirou, on 16 July 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

1500m+ plinking is not what wins games, in general.

Okay then...right...so why are you arguing over who can plink who at 1850m?!

Oh wait, I see now. So after SeventhSL corrects you on your math and shows that the TDR-5SS actually does have the range advantage, even over a Clan mech with a TC7 (btw, nobody takes those), suddenly you switch your approach from, "Clans have a HUGE range advantage!" to, "Eh, range advantage at those ranges don't really decide games."

[Koshirou]

Aresye Kerensky, on 16 July 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

Okay then...right...so why are you arguing over who can plink who at 1850m?!

Because someone apparently thought that this was a crucial IS advantage. That...
a.) It is not crucial
b.) It does not exist to the alleged degree if indeed at all
... are two different points. On the second point, I'll readily concede that the correct argument is "not to the alleged degree" rather than "at all".

And FYI: Nobody has corrected me on my math. Every single calculation was correct (rounding notwithstanding) - one some I just worked with obsolete assumptions as to the premises.

Aresye Kerensky, on 16 July 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

your approach from, "Clans have a HUGE range advantage!"

Could you please link to, or quote, which posting you refer to? Because apparently you misunderstood something.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[demoyn]

If you people are so worried about the math why don't you take example mechs from metamechs? Those are the builds your average to above average pilots use.

On the other hand, if your response to this is "that's not what the IS nubs in CW use" then you already have your answer. It's not a tech advantage, it's a pilot derp advantage.

Edited by demoyn, 16 July 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Koshirou]

demoyn, on 16 July 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

If you people are so worried about the math why don't you take example mechs from metamechs? Those are the builds your average to above average pilots use.

One simple reason: Because when I quote metamechs - whose competitive tier lists are dominated by Clan Mechs in all non-light categories - I'm going to be told that metamechs is irrelevant. At least I assume this is going to happen this time, as it did the last several times I mentioned metamechs in discussions like this.

In a sense, that is right, too. IS CW teams, even with many unit members, are not monotone collections of the few competitive IS Mechs. One can speculate about why, but for the time being one should just accept that it is so.

Edited by Koshirou, 16 July 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Aresye]

Koshirou, on 16 July 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

And FYI: Nobody has corrected me on my math. Every single calculation was correct (rounding notwithstanding) - one some I just worked with obsolete assumptions as to the premises.

So...just to be perfectly clear here. You used the wrong numbers which resulted in an incorrect conclusion, and somebody pointed it out as being wrong.

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of being corrected on math?

[Koshirou]

Aresye Kerensky, on 17 July 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:

Isn't that pretty much the textbook definition of being corrected on math?

No, that's using obsolete data. For the values I was provided (by the out of date wiki), my calculations were correct. It is simply the case that these values no longer reflect in game behaviour.
I actually explained the difference by way of comparison with SeventhSL's miscalculations above. Feel free to read through that again.

Edited by Koshirou, 17 July 2015 - 11:28 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Koshirou, on 17 July 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

No, that's using obsolete data. For the values I was provided (by the out of date wiki), my calculations were correct. It is simply the case that these values no longer reflect in game behaviour.
I actually explained the difference by way of comparison with SeventhSL's miscalculations above. Feel free to read through that again.

You know when you pointed out my miscalculation I edited my post to correct it and even added a note to thank you for pointing it out. Can't say I argued the technicalities of not producing an answer that matched the realities of the game. So now you know that I was right about IS-ERLL out ranging and out damaging C-ERLL at long range what are you going to do?

[Chuck Jager]

SOmeone need to get a sample of 1000 (500 per side) using their (c)erll to see what the possible damage at max range was according to time frame to see if it still true. The rest is biased guessing.

From what I assume the lost 10 tons probably had more to do with premades in perfect drop decks having an extra 10 tons when both factions as premades in good decks are pretty even at 240 tons. With 2 sets of pugs in "original", "fun", (insert other snarky term here) builds, the clan side will probably have a 10 ton advantage. "Bad" clan mechs are still mediocre compared to a "bad" IS mech. Even if the noob clanner has to put lrms on every build 4 cermlas still does damage at coward(ish) range.

This has more to do with merc units switching sides after they probably caused the meta to shift. Also the fact that most premades will draw from the first group of players the other side has or only wait as long as it takes for solo sacrifices to trickle in. It will take everybody joining one faction and then farming new players and fanboys to get this point across. Would PGI consider promoting switching to short term contracts for a single faction monopoly malicious. Maybe it is just added realism with a political role to counter certain groups.