70 replies to this topic

[process]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 July 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Since when do weight and slots not factor in?

How convenient to say that weight and slots don't matter when comparing to IS.

Of course weight and slots factor in, because they leave more room for DHS!!!! Seriously, how many DHS can a Timber Wolf fit with a 4 cER LL loadout (which you can now do with 0 negative quirks)? Now compare that to how many DHS you can fit in a Grasshopper with 4 ER LLs.

That's where the off set in balance comes, you can fit a max of 18 or 19 DHS on a Grasshopper with Endo.

There are TBRs with 25 DHS. Because you know... 2 slots and all. But that's right slots don't matter.

Slots and weight are under the hood: they're part of the total package like engine, fixed slots, endo, ferro, etc. They factor into your build, but don't directly affect what's happening when you're putting 40 damage into someone's torso.

As for heatsinks, I have yet to do any sort of direct comparison, but in practice I feel that despite some Clan mechs being able to field up to 50% more heatsinks over IS mechs, the heat efficiency neutralizes the advantage. Most Clan laserboats run in excess of 9 HPS, and it would take about 25 Clan double heatsinks to get to 50% efficiency.

If you disagree with my modified assessment, you can refer to the original chart.

[Midax]

Why are you comparing IS LL to a Clan ERLL? They are not suppose to be equal. Advance time to when IS get ERLL and then compare them versus Clan LL. Until the IS gets their tech they will not match up well to the Clans. Standard lasers should be shorter range lower damage and better heat. The other tech is suppose to beat them at range or damage in exchange for heat. If they get balanced against Clan weapons now what happens when IS gets their cool toys?

[Gas Guzzler]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Slots and weight are under the hood: they're part of the total package like engine, fixed slots, endo, ferro, etc. They factor into your build, but don't directly affect what's happening when you're putting 40 damage into someone's torso.

As for heatsinks, I have yet to do any sort of direct comparison, but in practice I feel that despite some Clan mechs being able to field up to 50% more heatsinks over IS mechs, the heat efficiency neutralizes the advantage. Most Clan laserboats run in excess of 9 HPS, and it would take about 25 Clan double heatsinks to get to 50% efficiency.

If you disagree with my modified assessment, you can refer to the original chart.

Right that is my point. Clan mechs being able to cram in more DHS offsets the extra heat generated. Even still, if the GHR-5H lost its heat gen quirk, it would be less heat efficient than the Timber Wolf build with equivalent laser vomit alpha (but at greater range).

[process]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 July 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Right that is my point. Clan mechs being able to cram in more DHS offsets the extra heat generated. Even still, if the GHR-5H lost its heat gen quirk, it would be less heat efficient than the Timber Wolf build with equivalent laser vomit alpha (but at greater range).

Would you argue that the primary factors are: damage, range, and duration?

Edited by process, 10 July 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

Here's a direct comparison between IS and Clan weapons, without quirks, using an index, where "positive" values are on top (e.g. damage, range) and "negative" values are below (e.g. heat, tonnage). A higher index value correlates to a better weapon.



As you can see, Clan and IS weapons are, in theory, fairly well balanced. The two main outliers are the Clan's ER Small Laser and ER Large Laser. In this comparison, the C-ER Large Laser's inflated number seems to be due to its number of slots.


However in practice, many of these values aren't useful. Slots and Weight don't factor in to battlefield performance, and with peak-and-poke fighting, cooldown isn't a significant factor. Essentially, with the game as it's played most of the time, the massive advantages gained from close quarters fighting evaporate. Additionally it's much easier to focus fire at longer ranges. If we focus on the values that have the greatest impact, we end up with something like this:



And I think this seems to match most people's perception about relative performance: the Clan Large Pulse Laser being king, and IS Large/Large Pulse laserboats being the counterweight.

Pretty decent post, though your indexing calculation is, patently, not done correctly. What you've done now doesn't actually give us an informed interpretation of relative utility. Properly, you need to generate weights for each of the performance variables, then take the values in each and normalize them between 0 and 1 in the desired direction (i.e. 0 heat is 1 and 10 heat is 0 while 13 damage is 1 and 3 damage is 0...you can use linear scaling but that may or may not be the right choice), and then take the weighted average across the row to generate a utility score. The closer to 1, the better the weapon.

The hardest part is generating the weights. One way to do so is to poll the best players and get them to rank the variables in order of importance. Combine it with some qualitative questions to try and get a fuller picture. Alternatively, you can give it your best guess based on your experience playing the game.

process, on 10 July 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Slots and weight are under the hood: they're part of the total package like engine, fixed slots, endo, ferro, etc. They factor into your build, but don't directly affect what's happening when you're putting 40 damage into someone's torso.

As for heatsinks, I have yet to do any sort of direct comparison, but in practice I feel that despite some Clan mechs being able to field up to 50% more heatsinks over IS mechs, the heat efficiency neutralizes the advantage. Most Clan laserboats run in excess of 9 HPS, and it would take about 25 Clan double heatsinks to get to 50% efficiency.

If you disagree with my modified assessment, you can refer to the original chart.

Weight and size also do factor into putting damage onto the target, though. I have an XL300, 4x LL CPLT-K2 with a single UAC/5. It performs reasonably well in the field with comparable weapons performance to a Clan 'Mech sporting five C-ERML and a Gauss Rifle, but it runs hotter. If I could swap two of my excessive 4 tons of ammo for DHS, it would increase my sustained cyclic DPS and my max cyclic DPS and I could get off a third 51 damage salvo before being compelled to cool off, but I can't because I don't have the slots. If those LL were one slot each, I could do it. If the DHS were two slots each I could do it.

Put another way, nobody would care much about 54+ damage alphas at 400+ meters if you could only do it once every 18 seconds or so; a wait that long would allow time for paper-cut builds to do some work. Because the gear is light-weight and small, though, you can fit the appropriate number of heat-sinks to keep it cool, 'Mechs with unique design-flaws notwithstanding (we have those on both sides).

[RedDevil]

I was always under the impression that as generalists, Clan mechs are better than IS mechs; but as specialists, IS mechs are better than Clan mechs due to the quirk system. Probably the only exception to this would be the CERML laser vomit, which can can get off two huge alphas before overheating.

The idea being that IS chassis that are optimized to their quirks are equal to and sometimes greater than the unquirked Clan mechs. Then some Clan mechs turned out to be so bad, that they had to be quirked even with the general superiority of Clan weapons, and then the IS quirk system was applied to some of them making it less IS-unique. Not that this has really helped the Summoner much still >.<

Edited by reddevil, 10 July 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

What I've never understood is why when people argue IS vs Clans they never talk about the same weight mechs. Why isn't the Quickdraw or dragon compared to the mad dog, why is it always the hellbringer. Why compare the Thunderbolts to the Timberwolves?. If we are interested in balancing, shouldn't the Orion be paired with the Timber. I don't think you'd find many people to argue that matchup is equal. Or the Summoner Vs. the Grasshopper. Closer but I'd wager most would favor the hopper. We talk about weapon weight and slots. But we never compare evenly matched tonnage on mechs?. Anyone else notice this theme in when IS vs Clan balance is debated on these forums?

[Gas Guzzler]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Would you argue that the primary factors are: damage, range, and duration?

I guess... but discounting the whole picture takes away from the argument in general.

For example, the GHR-5H would have no hope of standing up to a Timber Wolf without its quirks, even though the alpha is the same, it would run hotter, have less range, have less armor, die to one ST explosion, run slower, and be less agile. It's only advantage would be shorter laser duration. Its quirks (which on a spread sheet make its weapons seem very efficient with -12.5% heat gen and some amount of cooldown which I can't remember, along with its durability bonuses and agility, but in reality when considering the whole picture, they just bring the loadout being a little more comparable) bring it closer to competing, but ultimately it STILL falls short.

The quirked GHR-5H and the typical laser vomit Timber have equal damage, Timber gets it max alpha at 450 with modules and M1 TC, Hopper gets it at 297. There is more comparison with range, but I don't want to get that detailed right now. And then of course the hopper gets better duration, 0.9 (0.67 LPLs) while the timber gets 1.242 now with the new quirks.

Yes, I know TDR-5SS but that is an outlier so I was ignoring it, and it isn't exactly comparing apples to apples because it focuses more on brawling then 400-600m poking.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 July 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[process]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 July 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Pretty decent post, though your indexing calculation is, patently, not done correctly...

I based my analysis off of a materials selection index, which admittedly I haven't done in many years. Can you explain why it's necessary to normalize the values to arbitrary ranges? As for weighing, I suppose damage, range, and duration are the most significant values, but I can't say which factors would be fair to use without making the entire analysis too subjective.

Jaybles, on 10 July 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

What I've never understood is why when people argue IS vs Clans they never talk about the same weight mechs. Why isn't the Quickdraw or dragon compared to the mad dog, why is it always the hellbringer. Why compare the Thunderbolts to the Timberwolves?. If we are interested in balancing, shouldn't the Orion be paired with the Timber. I don't think you'd find many people to argue that matchup is equal. Or the Summoner Vs. the Grasshopper. Closer but I'd wager most would favor the hopper. We talk about weapon weight and slots. But we never compare evenly matched tonnage on mechs?. Anyone else notice this theme in when IS vs Clan balance is debated on these forums?

This is where I hoped quirks would have a more significant impact. Since the current philosophy is 12 IS mechs should be a match for 12 Clan mechs, the average IS mech should be on par with it's average Clan tonnage equivalent.

The use an Orion as an example, I think it would be better served as being extremely tanky. With its mediocre hardpoints locations, all the range buffs aren't going to make it much better.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

I guess... but discounting the whole picture takes away from the argument in general.

For example, the GHR-5H would have no hope of standing up to a Timber Wolf without its quirks, even though the alpha is the same, it would run hotter, have less range, have less armor, die to one ST explosion, run slower, and be less agile. It's only advantage would be shorter laser duration. Its quirks (which on a spread sheet make its weapons seem very efficient with -12.5% heat gen and some amount of cooldown which I can't remember, along with its durability bonuses and agility, but in reality when considering the whole picture, they just bring the loadout being a little more comparable) bring it closer to competing, but ultimately it STILL falls short.

I think we're starting to veer into a global balancing discussion. I would prefer to get the various weapon systems balanced internally, on paper anyway, then go about addressing other disparities like chassis-specific hitboxes and IS/Clan engines. Then quirks.

I realize these issues are intertwined, perhaps inextricably, but I don't see how we can achieve balance by focusing on just a handful of chassis. Like you say with the TDR-5SS, the Timber Wolf is somewhat of an outlier among Clan mechs as well.

Edited by process, 10 July 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

I based my analysis off of a materials selection index, which admittedly I haven't done in many years. Can you explain why it's necessary to normalize the values to arbitrary ranges? As for weighing, I suppose damage, range, and duration are the most significant values, but I can't say which factors would be fair to use without making the entire analysis too subjective.



This is where I hoped quirks would have a more significant impact. Since the current philosophy is 12 IS mechs should be a match for 12 Clan mechs, the average IS mech should be on par with it's average Clan tonnage equivalent.

The use an Orion as an example, I think it would be better served as being extremely tanky. With its mediocre hardpoints locations, all the range buffs aren't going to make it much better.



I think we're starting to veer into a global balancing discussion. I would prefer to get the various weapon systems balanced internally, on paper anyway, then go about addressing other disparities like chassis-specific hitboxes and IS/Clan engines. Then quirks.

I realize these issues are intertwined, perhaps inextricably, but I don't see how we can achieve balance by focusing on just a handful of chassis. Like you say with the TDR-5SS, the Timber Wolf is somewhat of an outlier among Clan mechs as well.

Timber Wolf/Hellbringer/ Ebon Jaguar are all blessed Clan mechs. But if you ignore the outlier comment, balancing a MPL boat with a 450-600 m 54 pt alpha poke build doesn't make sense. It would be more accurate to compare an MPL boat to a cSPL + SRM loadout or cSPL + UAC, or even just cMPL.

If you want to leave hitboxes//engine stuff out that is fine, but you can't leave out the DHS trends if you are going to use heat as a metric in comparing weapon to weapon balance.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 July 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Jaybles, on 10 July 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

If we are interested in balancing, shouldn't the Orion be paired with the Timber.

No, because the Orion is not good for other reasons.

You are right that the comparison is off though. I would compare the Stalker to the Timber Wolf, rather than the Thunderbolt to the Timber Wolf.

[process]

Rouken, on 10 July 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

No, because the Orion is not good for other reasons.

You are right that the comparison is off though. I would compare the Stalker to the Timber Wolf, rather than the Thunderbolt to the Timber Wolf.

In an ideal situation, the IS shouldn't need an extra 10 tons to compete with a Clan mech.

Edited by process, 10 July 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Night Thastus]

This is really cool. It looks like even before quirks, the Clan Lasers do less damage per heat, and roughly the same damage per tick (some above, some below, some identical).

Their tonnage is almost exactly the same, except with Large and Large Pulse lasers, which are slightly lighter on the clan side.

The only real advantage that Clan Lasers have is their range. This spread sheet proves that.
If you add quirks into account, I'd say they're roughly balanced.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

In an ideal situation, the IS shouldn't need an extra 10 tons to compete with a Clan mech.

In a symmetrically balanced situation they wouldn't. If you want that I'll save you the trouble and tell you that the game won't be balanced until all the weapons and build rules are the same on each side or mix tech is an option.

[Gas Guzzler]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

In an ideal situation, the IS shouldn't need an extra 10 tons to compete with a Clan mech.

I'm crossing my fingers for the Black Knight, but my hopes aren't too high.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 July 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

So.... because the orion is bad "for other reasons" leave it out of the balance equation? Why does balance have to revolve around weapons? Can the "other reasons" help be negated better by giving the orion 25% more armor or structure? Or as other threads have suggested equalizing clan and IS xl engines. There are other solutions to balance besides buffing the weapons carried by at least 50% of the game population and reducing TTK even further than it currently is. But how does removing quirks and buffing all IS weapons to equal clans help the orion become balanced?

[RedDevil]

In an ideal situation, tonnage shouldn't be used at all to balance sides.

Edited by reddevil, 10 July 2015 - 10:04 AM.

[process]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 July 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

I'm crossing my fingers for the Black Knight, but my hopes aren't too high.

I'm expecting a slightly more competitive Grasshopper.

[Gas Guzzler]

process, on 10 July 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

I'm expecting a slightly more competitive Grasshopper.

I hope so, they will need to give it a little sumn sumn over the 'Hopper because the BK has no hops.

[Leone]

Powerbomb256, on 09 July 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

All the things.

<o.

Jaybles, on 10 July 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Anyone else notice this theme in when IS vs Clan balance is debated on these forums?

It's why I don't participate in those threads, rather than to troll the silly complaints. You, Sir, I would debate with.

Let's start with something easy. My favourite mech is the blackhawk loaded with twelve ER smalls. Looking at the chart it's easy to see why. IS fields the Hunchback at that weight class as it's most noted brawler I believe. (Feel free to choose something else.) So, despite the fact that the Nova may never take endosteel or Ferrofibrious, what are your thoughts on this matchup?

~Leone.