35 replies to this topic

[Kalimaster]

The Confederate flag has fallen, in the name of equality.

Those of the same sex can marry, in the name of equality.

A satanic statue is planned to be erected at the Capital building at Little Rock Arkansas, in the name of equality.

So while we are sticking our necks out, heres another one.

https://youtu.be/s1ag4jlago8

[Heffay]

Kalimaster, on 10 July 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

The Confederate flag has fallen, in the name of equality. Those of the same sex can marry, in the name of equality. A satanic statue is planned to be erected at the Capital building at Little Rock Arkansas, in the name of equality.

And America has never been stronger.

[Mystere]

Heffay, on 10 July 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

And America has never been stronger.

Really?

[Kain Demos]

After all this controversy kicked off I ordered my very own stars and bars. I will be back in Texas soon and will be flying all of the flags that have flown over the state. Last time I just had the US and Texas flag. I wouldn't mind flying a Don't Tread on Me and a Jolly Rodger either but you only have so much room.

[Heffay]

If you don't like America, you're free to leave.

But it's a poor sign of character that you only want to live in a democracy when people vote for the things you want.

[EvAbsence]

The video was a joke. It was made by HBO.
Who says America has to be the number one world power?
How did we get to the point where we are losing our number one spot? Greed, ignorance, and manipulative divisiveness by our leaders.
I say if it is important to be number one, let's show we deserve it by making peace with ourselves and our differences. Only then can we be the best we can be.

[IraqiWalker]

Kain Demos, on 10 July 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

After all this controversy kicked off I ordered my very own stars and bars. I will be back in Texas soon and will be flying all of the flags that have flown over the state. Last time I just had the US and Texas flag. I wouldn't mind flying a Don't Tread on Me and a Jolly Rodger either but you only have so much room.

That's not actually the stars and bars.

THIS is the Stars and Bars


For the record, the Stars and Bars was the first confederate flag. It was flown for a while, until confederate troops complained it looked too similar to the Star Spangled Banner, and was confusing them on the battlefield. The confederacy went through several flags. None of which were this one with the red field and blue crosses.

This flag was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee.

[Mister Blastman]

IraqiWalker, on 10 July 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

That's not actually the stars and bars.

THIS is the Stars and Bars


For the record, the Stars and Bars was the first confederate flag. It was flown for a while, until confederate troops complained it looked too similar to the Star Spangled Banner, and was confusing them on the battlefield. The confederacy went through several flags. None of which were this one with the red field and blue crosses.

This flag was the battle flag of Robert E. Lee.

I like the stars and bars. It is a brave symbol of State's Rights against Federal oppression. But I'm not alone. Andy Warhol liked it too.



That's a room in his house in Nantucket. See the flag? It's bold and beautiful, proudly displayed on the wall.

[IraqiWalker]

Mister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

I like the stars and bars. It is a brave symbol of State's Rights against Federal oppression. But I'm not alone. Andy Warhol liked it too.



That's a room in his house in Nantucket. See the flag? It's bold and beautiful, proudly displayed on the wall.

Liking it, or disliking it, doesn't change what it was for. It wasn't just state rights. It was also a secessionist movement. It stood for all of that. Not just one thing or the other.

[Mister Blastman]

IraqiWalker, on 10 July 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Liking it, or disliking it, doesn't change what it was for. It wasn't just state rights. It was also a secessionist movement. It stood for all of that. Not just one thing or the other.

And rightly so it stood for secession. I'm proud they had the courage to stand up and fight for what they believed in.

[Mister Blastman]

Marack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Nice we found a racist. You support everything that flag stood for including slavery and all. Good to know racist.

I'm hardly a racist. Only the ill-informed believe the flag is a symbol of racism. It stands for State rights and separation of State and Federal powers--something many have forgotten the Constitution still stands for.

I have many friends who are black, hispanic and some even middle-eastern. The difference is I truly know what secession was all about. I respect those states that had the courage to withdraw and stand up against the tyrannical Federal system.

This is not racist. This is patriotic. This is understanding what the Constitution is truly about and what it represents as the Founding Fathers intended when they wrote it.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But personal accusations and attacks like yours are hardly tolerant.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 10 July 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[Heffay]

Mister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

It stands for State rights

States rights over individual rights. Because hey, putting someone in chains isn't nearly as important as the state having the right to put someone in chains.

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 10 July 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

States rights over individual rights. Because hey, putting someone in chains isn't nearly as important as the state having the right to put someone in chains.

Slavery was and always is a bad thing. But make no mistake, the war was first and foremost over State rights and tyranny. Don't get lost in textbooks and movies that try to re-write history into something that it wasn't.

Think what you will. The flag stands for what it did at the time, not what people want to make it out to be now.

[Nightmare1]

Blastman is actually correct. I'm a major history buff and have spent a lot of time reading historical accounts from or about that time period, written by proponents of the South and of the North. In short, I've tried to get the sense from both sides of the conflict so that I can see what it was really about. In the end, it really was about States' Rights. Most of the Southerners who fought did not own slaves; they were poor dirt farmers. Only the wealthy plantation owners or well-to-do middle classman owned slaves. The majority of Southerners who seceded did so to protect their right as a State to determine their own fates.

If you read some of the material from that time, you'll find that a lot of Southerners wanted to eliminate slavery but were too dependent on it economically to do so. They weren't at a point yet where they could break the cycle, although they were making strides towards doing so. The war came about as a struggle for power. The Federal Government was accruing too much power to itself, powers that were not granted it in the Constitution. The South wanted to preserve the Constitutional rights it possessed. So, it practiced its Constitutional right to secede. The North was the one who decided not to allow it. There may never have been a war, and slavery might have ended peacefully, if the North had not been so belligerent and impatient.

In the end, it is a moot point; the war occurred and history has been written. Either way, slavery was ended. The Confederate flag today stands as a symbol of the battles fought and the courage displayed by those who died to defend their homelands. It is only a symbol of racism when someone deliberately chooses to cast it in that light or twist its meaning in an attempt to make it fit their agenda. I could, were I so inclined, film something incredibly racist with a banner of a BattleMech behind me, but that would not make the BattleMech or MechWarrior inherently a racist icon to people who do not know its history or understand its culture. It would only become so if the people chose to view it as such out of ignorance, rather than educate themselves regarding it.

Also of note, and something most Americans do not know, is that there was a surprising number of black slave owners in the South, including one William Ellison who is interesting to read about. For those who would like a short primer, you can read about him here:

https://en.wikipedia...William_Ellison

All this to say, things are not as cut-and-dried as they appear. There is more complexity to it. I personally like the Confederate Flag. For me, it symbolizes Southern Heritage and culture. It symbolizes sacrifice and bravery. It also symbolizes a turbulent time in our history. It holds no racism for me and is important because it is a vital part of our nation's fiber. We would be better off to keep and preserve it, as a testament to what occurred and as a historical lesson for future generations than to obliterate it. Eliminating history, while it may be appealing with regard to controversial topics and icons, does not end well. In the end, the people doing the eliminations are simply setting up future generations to be less knowledgeable and culturally invested in their country by sanitizing it for them. When you do away with the lessons of history you merely set subsequent generations up to repeat the same, or similar, mistakes.

Lastly, there is no one alive today who participated in the Civil War. To take offense at a bit of cloth, when one does not even command a decent grasp of its history nor is personally tied to it in some manner, is foolish and divisive. It would be better if the nation had condemned the racist shooter and meted out judgment, then moved on to heal, rather than become hung up on something that should have been trivial; that being a prop in a deranged man's video.

IraqiWalker, on 10 July 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Liking it, or disliking it, doesn't change what it was for. It wasn't just state rights. It was also a secessionist movement. It stood for all of that. Not just one thing or the other.

The secessionist movement and States' Rights were tied together. The States themselves had the Constitutional right to secede. The North just wouldn't let them.

Marack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Nice we found a racist. You support everything that flag stood for including slavery and all. Good to know racist.

That was a bit of inane and childish babble.

[Mystere]

Heffay, on 10 July 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

If you don't like America, you're free to leave.

But it's a poor sign of character that you only want to live in a democracy when people vote for the things you want.

Why do so many of you Yanks always say that? With so many of you folks, it's always "Take it or leave it!", "You're either with me or against me!", or some similar black and white nonsense.

A better response would be: Why not show everyone how to make things better?

Edited by Mystere, 10 July 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

You guys need to study history again. The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 is but one example that shows the so called "State's Rights" argument is a joke. Slave states were perfectly willing to violate state's rights when it suited slavery!

Confederate leaders only consistent motivation was the preservation of slavery and they were perfectly willing to violate the laws and authority of free states.

Just because many that fought for the confederates were manipulated by the wealthy slave holders to believe the war was about tyranny doesn't mean that is the accurate motivations of the true authority of the south (wealthy slavers).

What should be most remembered about the Confederate soldiers was how all that bravery, courage, and valor was wasted by the selfish and greedy leaders of the south.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 10 July 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Marack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

There may be a lot of complexity but that does not changed that the majority of America is what you call uninformed and finds that, the Bars and stars and General Lee's flag is offensive.

It doesn't matter if it is offensive or not, that's the thing. That has no bearing on what it was or is. I'm of the age where I grew up when things weren't classified as offensive. So please don't try and use that argument.

History sets in stone what things were.

You are doing the entire nation a disservice if you perpetuate misperception. As Nightmare1 pointed out, it is better to teach the historical meaning and significance so successive generations know the truth, can learn from the truth, and truly know their heritage.

If you allow ignorance to exist, it will continue to replicate and perpetuate.

Re-writing history after it happened is never a good thing. Entire nations, societies and populations of people ultimately suffer years later because useful knowledge was washed away from the history books in the name of both "tolerance" and "offensiveness." This is far more harmful than it is helpful.

[Nightmare1]

Mister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

It doesn't matter if it is offensive or not, that's the thing. That has no bearing on what it was or is. I'm of the age where I grew up when things weren't classified as offensive. So please don't try and use that argument.

History sets in stone what things were.

You are doing the entire nation a disservice if you perpetuate misperception. As Nightmare1 pointed out, it is better to teach the historical meaning and significance so successive generations know the truth, can learn from the truth, and truly know their heritage.

If you allow ignorance to exist, it will continue to replicate and perpetuate.

Re-writing history after it happened is never a good thing. Entire nations, societies and populations of people ultimately suffer years later because useful knowledge was washed away from the history books in the name of both "tolerance" and "offensiveness." This is far more harmful than it is helpful.

Exactly. No matter how the flag is perceived, to attempt to blot out its history is a disservice to the country. Refusing to educate one's self as to its culture is a disservice to those who value it. Maintaining one's own ignorance is a disservice to one's self.

Add it all up, and you wind up with a nation that continues to become divided as ignorance, naivety, and misplaced passion continue to propagate. Simply put, the controversy over the flag amounts to little more than hype and political fodder, useful distractions to keep people's attentions away from more meaningful political issues while providing an opportunity to further divide the voter base and carve out more votes in the next election cycle. This happens every four years, and yet we keep falling for the same shenanigans every time.

So, next year, will it be the American flag? It too once stood for slavery. Or will it be wooden sailing vessels since those were used to transport slaves? Where does it end?

It ends when people stop allowing inanimate objects to be made into divisive issues, educate themselves on the items' backgrounds, and generally become more mature. Right now, none of that is happening.

As for the flag being removed from Carolina's Capitol, an interesting note is that Rev. Clementa Pinckney actually supported a previous vote to keep it in place. Ironic, no?

[Heffay]

Mister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

But make no mistake, the war was first and foremost over State rights

Yes, the State's right to make people slaves based on the color of their skin.

You really don't see the problem with that?

[Mister Blastman]

Heffay, on 10 July 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Yes, the State's right to make people slaves based on the color of their skin.

You really don't see the problem with that?

I guess you missed my previous post. You're feel to read up and see what I wrote.

Now, on to your other point... "State's right to make people slaves" ...

Yes, /some/ of the states mentioned slaves in the articles of secession, but not all. But make no mistake, this was /not/ the central issue. The issue was about States' rights and Federal tyranny. The Constitution clearly enumerates State powers. The Federal Government was and still /is/ overstepping those bounds.

You see, there were plenty of other rights at stake beyond slavery and only now, after over a hundred and fifty years are we seeing the result of that. States are repeatedly being denied their rights guaranteed under the Constitution. If we simply bow to ignorance and re-write history to make the war about Slaves (it wasn't), we perpetuate the lie.

Unfortunately, the truth is far more important to preserve than keeping the ignorant from being offended.

Marack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Swearing and text

Swearing only makes you look younger and does little to help your argument.

History is as factual as you strive to preserve it. If you do things such as perpetuate the lie that the Confederate Flag represents slavery, eventually the history books will reflect that and future generations will believe the lie and teach it to their children. It is our responsibility to make sure the truth lives on from one generation to the next to protect them from things that might eventually hurt them.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 10 July 2015 - 09:04 PM.