158 replies to this topic

[Thomas Hogarth]

I'm about as stalwart a "by the rules" canon guy as it gets, and even I find myself questioning the whole skidding on feet thing. How about this:

Instead of skidding on feet like most people are thinking, why don't we get even closer to canon by making 'mechs trip and fall on concrete, THEN skid. I see this as far more plausible.

[Kleine Vidan]

It's reasonable... It affects the lighter mechs more than the heavies and assaults... it's all about momentum.
Like what Outlaw said, the momentum will make it difficult for any high-speed, heavy object to counteract inertia/momentum when they try to perform turns or change directions, or go reverse all of a suddent. They would have to slow themselves down gradually before doing so, or risk skidding/slipping/tumbling despite all their leg traction.

If the advance gyro system can't compensate for it by making the mech split/tilt/duck during the sudden change of direction, they'll end up toppling over due to the high center of gravity, etc.

Edited by Kleine Vidan, 11 March 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Coracina]

This would require something very advanced like NaturalMotion Euphoria (used in GTA4), integrating it into CryEngine and adapting it for mechs. I'm guessing it would be very expensive and difficult to justify since fumbling mechs would look comical and losing control just isn't fun.

[Bonewalker]

Shouldn't it depend on the weather? If it were Raining, Snowing, Freezing, ect. I'd say Yeah, it'd be slippery. Toss in Mud and you've got a party.

[Karyudo ds]

Thomas Hogarth, on 03 March 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I'm about as stalwart a "by the rules" canon guy as it gets, and even I find myself questioning the whole skidding on feet thing.

Skidding never made much sense to me. You would move slower in urban areas but not because of skidding out of control (not sure how a biped even does that) but because you might hit something. At least under normal conditions.

[Cake Bandit]

The future of war.

[Spooky]

Good job with the incredibly biased poll options ...

[Dihm]

Cake Bandit, on 12 March 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

The future of war.

Mad Cat is confirmed!

[Spooky]

I find the notion of asphalt being "slippery" for a Mech weird. A BattleMech has 25 tons or more, and all this weight is not distributed over a large area. While in motion, that weight is distributed only over the small area of one foot and my impression is, that any Mech would sink its foot into the relatively soft asphalt with every step.

[MaddMaxx]

Spooky, on 12 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

I find the notion of asphalt being "slippery" for a Mech weird. A BattleMech has 25 tons or more, and all this weight is not distributed over a large area. While in motion, that weight is distributed only over the small area of one foot and my impression is, that any Mech would sink its foot into the relatively soft asphalt with every step.

One word. FerroCrete.

"Make Potholes a thing of the past!"

Edited by MaddMaxx, 12 March 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Spooky]

MaddMaxx, on 12 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

One word. FerroCrete.

"Make Potholes a thing of the past!"

Ferroconcrete is concrete reinforced with steel fibres. I was talking about asphalt .


On concrete itself: it's brittle, but I don't know how it would behave when 25 or 100 tons are "stomped" on it on a small area. And I don't know how Ferroconcrete would behave, if it will be any different at all. The purpose of the steel fibres in ferroconcrete is to absorb tensile force once cracks in the concrete are formed.

Edited by Spooky, 12 March 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Dlardrageth]

To somewhat expound on the FerroCrete MaddMaxx mentioned - I'd suggest taking a look at this link, where it is specifically mentioned. The necessities of slightly different infrastructural needs and technology from ours might have very well led to plain old asphalt being discarded largely. and substituted by FerroCrete which has the little downside of being more susceptible to skidding issues.

But then neither did its inventors likely forsee it being a prime material for BattleMech racing courses nor does it pose a major problem for ground traffic relying way more on skimmers than conventional ground cars. And yes, of course I am talking urban/city environemnt here, you are not likely to encounter much FerroCrete out in the jungle. Unless you stumble over a derelict StarPort facility or a smuggler's landing strip for orbital craft.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 12 March 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Pulispher]

Yeah it is cannon but, come on how many games have we played where someone went headfirst through a building on one bad roll. In MW:O we are the dice, our skill dictates how are Mech moves. Do we really want to complicate things unnecessarily?

[LordDeathStrike]

Iron Horse, on 30 November 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

According to the TT rules and canon, ferrocrete streets are actually slippery for 'mechs, due to the fact that 'mechs' feet are designed for all-terrain, and roads are better designed for rubber wheels., so would actually be difficult for 'mechs to get much traction.

If the 'mechs slip a bit when cornering at high speeds in-game I think this could add a cool dynamic. Especially for smaller 'mechs which should generally find some comfort in urban terrain this could add a little balance.

I am curious to see what everyone else thinks, and see if anyone else remembers this from TT rules.

whats to stop me from putting spike cleets on my atlas so he gets good grip on anything that 200,000 psi (100 ton x 2000p/ton on 1 inch spike points) spike tips can bite into?

[Don]

Really guys? Drifting mechs? I can probably think of 100 better things the devs should spend their time on. Don't tempt me because I could probably list them all

[LordDeathStrike]

Spooky, on 12 March 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Ferroconcrete is concrete reinforced with steel fibres. I was talking about asphalt .


On concrete itself: it's brittle, but I don't know how it would behave when 25 or 100 tons are "stomped" on it on a small area. And I don't know how Ferroconcrete would behave, if it will be any different at all. The purpose of the steel fibres in ferroconcrete is to absorb tensile force once cracks in the concrete are formed.

standar concrete would collsapse under 100t feet loads even with rebar, only the fact that they made up ferrocrete makes it feasable that it can sustain a mechs weight distribution (light concrete bridges cant even carry a 100t tank with its large tread weight spread due to being unable to carry 100t of weight).

should a 20t scout moving at 150 km slip and slide a bit? sure why not, thats alot of momentum its gonna take a good grip to accelerate and deccelerate. but a walking atlas should be solidly making pot holes as he goes.

[Shai tan]

I think making a specific surface hardly pilotable wouldn`t be very fun. But I do think the skill aspect of piloting at high speeds and going into banking turns should be looked at VERY closely.

I had suggested a Gyro be added with Safe area showing how far we can safely push it = your Mech at high speeds and cornering. Anything within the Safe Area would be.... safe , and you could prolly push it a tad past the Safety Area, but any faster in the turn and your Mech would go down.

This would be for ALL surface types. Thus adding a real skill factor to high speed banking piloting for every Mech type accept prolly the very heaviest. I`d much rather this type of thing be done, as apposed to certain surface types causing Mechs to slip. A smart Pilot would just choose not to go on those surfaces anyways.

[LordDeathStrike]

shai`tan, on 16 March 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I think making a specific surface hardly pilotable wouldn`t be very fun. But I do think the skill aspect of piloting at high speeds and going into banking turns should be looked at VERY closely.

I had suggested a Gyro be added with Safe area showing how far we can safely push it = your Mech at high speeds and cornering. Anything within the Safe Area would be.... safe , and you could prolly push it a tad past the Safety Area, but any faster in the turn and your Mech would go down.

This would be for ALL surface types. Thus adding a real skill factor to high speed banking piloting for every Mech type accept prolly the very heaviest. I`d much rather this type of thing be done, as apposed to certain surface types causing Mechs to slip. A smart Pilot would just choose not to go on those surfaces anyways.

also, why would ferrocrete be an issue, since on ice planet glaciars, where teh surface is literally frozen water ice or other things even colder like methane ice, were never slick enough to impede our mechs, the bottoms of the feet are textured with sharp edged cleets, they bite into things, just because the TT game use falling in cities as a board game balance doesnt mean it has a place in the video game.

if you want terrain effects, have wading in chest deep water for cooling slow you down alot, have getting in and out of water for cooling have you passing through mud that can damn near stop your movement entirely muahahaha, but the idea of a hard surface being impeding to a war machine, tis mockery, pure mockery to common sense.

[Datum]

Force of friction is equal to the friction coefficient times normal force.
F(fr)=Coef(fr)*N
(N being Normal force being Mass * Gravitational Acceleration)
So F(fr)=Coef(fr)*Mass*Accel(grav)
Force=mass*accel, so accel=force/mass
assuming a flat surface, we can substitute the force of friction to be accel=[Coef(fr)*Accel(grav)*mass]/mass
the masses cancel out and we have the equation for maximum acceleration:
Accel=Coef(fr)*Accel(grav)

On earth, multiply your friction coefficient by 9.8m/s^2 to get your max acceleration. Say my rubber shoes have a coefficient of .4 on carpet. I multiply that coefficient by 9.8m/s^2 to get 3.92m/s^2 of acceleration before I slip.

Now, these battles are not going to be on earth, so we get to have the fun of using different local gravity for this equation.
Say on Eaglesham (for the sake of argument) we have an 8m/s^2 grav constant. Your mech is sprinting on concrete with a static friction coefficient of .7 (mech cleats or something). We multiply the two and get a max accel of 5.6m/s^2 before slipping.
Let's say we have a Jenner sprinting along at 33 meters/second, pulling as tight as it can go without slipping with said max accel of 5.6m/s^2. Assuming a circular turn, it has a max turn rate of about 9.7 degrees/second. Depending on the surface that can vary from a bare minimum of steel-on-ice 5.5 degrees/second to cleated-talons 15 degrees/second at full speed. At lower speeds we have a much greater rate of turning, obviously.

Now, this puts fast mechs into a point-to-point run if they are to stay upright, while slower mechs are free to turn with impunity, unless on ice or giant air-hockey tables.

Now, these could be tweaked from planet to planet as well as surface to surface. A planet with stronger gravity will, in fact, allow for tighter cornering and more responsive throttle (thought it may also limit top speeds mechanically). Conversely, one with weaker gravity, like on a moon, means slower turning to the tune of Blue Danube.

Also, depending on the mech's foot, you could potentially purchase different treading "modules", like buying mech cleats that improve off-road grip at the cost of worse concrete performance, or vice versa with a flat rubber sole or something.

Perhaps with the mechs, you could have an electronic limiter to turn speeds and acceleration rates, just so long us madmen can override it and drift our flocks of Jenners

If done right, this could add more environmental variety to the different planets as well as tactical choices.
-My two cents

Edited by Datum, 16 March 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[LordDeathStrike]

Datum, on 16 March 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Force of friction is equal to the friction coefficient times normal force.
F(fr)=Coef(fr)*N
(N being Normal force being Mass * Gravitational Acceleration)
So F(fr)=Coef(fr)*Mass*Accel(grav)
Force=mass*accel, so accel=force/mass
assuming a flat surface, we can substitute the force of friction to be accel=[Coef(fr)*Accel(grav)*mass]/mass
the masses cancel out and we have the equation for maximum acceleration:
Accel=Coef(fr)*Accel(grav)

On earth, multiply your friction coefficient by 9.8m/s^2 to get your max acceleration. Say my rubber shoes have a coefficient of .4 on carpet. I multiply that coefficient by 9.8m/s^2 to get 3.92m/s^2 of acceleration before I slip.

Now, these battles are not going to be on earth, so we get to have the fun of using different local gravity for this equation.
Say on Eaglesham (for the sake of argument) we have an 8m/s^2 grav constant. Your mech is sprinting on concrete with a static friction coefficient of .7 (mech cleats or something). We multiply the two and get a max accel of 5.6m/s^2 before slipping.
Let's say we have a Jenner sprinting along at 33 meters/second, pulling as tight as it can go without slipping with said max accel of 5.6m/s^2. Assuming a circular turn, it has a max turn rate of about 9.7 degrees/second. Depending on the surface that can vary from a bare minimum of steel-on-ice 5.5 degrees/second to cleated-talons 15 degrees/second at full speed. At lower speeds we have a much greater rate of turning, obviously.

Now, this puts fast mechs into a point-to-point run if they are to stay upright, while slower mechs are free to turn with impunity, unless on ice or giant air-hockey tables.

Now, these could be tweaked from planet to planet as well as surface to surface. A planet with stronger gravity will, in fact, allow for tighter cornering and more responsive throttle (thought it may also limit top speeds mechanically). Conversely, one with weaker gravity, like on a moon, means slower turning to the tune of Blue Danube.

Also, depending on the mech's foot, you could potentially purchase different treading "modules", like buying mech cleats that improve off-road grip at the cost of worse concrete performance, or vice versa with a flat rubber sole or something.

Perhaps with the mechs, you could have an electronic limiter to turn speeds and acceleration rates, just so long us madmen can override it and drift our flocks of Jenners

If done right, this could add more environmental variety to the different planets as well as tactical choices.
-My two cents

this is def the one area im willing to accept more arcade style physics in, cause reading this wall of text just took at least 5 years off my life span.....