158 replies to this topic

[GoLambo]

What an awfully biased poll.

For all this yammering on about traction nobody seems to actually understand a lot of the basics of traction, or even some common sense. Yes, tanks slip on asphalt, but they slip on soft terrain even more. So does everything else. As the ground beneath you doesn't give way on a road and you have relatively even contact patch you are far more likely to have grip, the "digging in for grip" factor of off road wheels and treads is largely working to mitigate the problems of soft terrain, it doesn't make you worse at going over roads, except in relation to the fact you don't have road tires to better take advantage of the surface. The only reason you would even notice this is because people don't try and achieve the same ground speeds in harsh terrain compared to what they would on a city street. You typically don't see tanks going all out and turning on soft terrain as they might throw a track, but if they didn't they would certainly skid. If Battletech actually wanted to be "realistic" so you suggest they'd have even harsher PSR's on dirt. But they don't because that would be impossible to keep track of. The PSR in cities rule is largely there for game balance, or the developers had the same misconceptions (which doesn't make it right).

Let's turn it around again and think of it a different way, if turning on city streets because of their special ferrocrete caused problems for mechs running through them at comparatively low speeds, imagine how much more dangerous that must be for local traffic! I'm not saying mechs shouldn't skid or slip, I'm fine with mechs skidding on all types of terrain under very sharp turns. The idea that you have WORSE traction on roads is ridiculous though.

Edited by golambo, 29 February 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Pht]

golambo, on 29 February 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Yes, tanks slip on asphalt, but they slip on soft terrain even more. So does everything else.

You, or someone else, have manged to observe "everything else?" Amazing, that. Maybe you meant something a bit less than "everything?"

Quote

As the ground beneath you doesn't give way on a road and you have relatively even contact patch you are far more likely to have grip, the "digging in for grip" factor of off road wheels and treads is largely working to mitigate the problems of soft terrain, it doesn't make you worse at going over roads, except in relation to the fact you don't have road tires to better take advantage of the surface.

it seems to me that you're presuming to know what the bottoms of 'Mech feet are like... flat and smooth, all metal, metal and some other material, gridded, ... who knows what? We've not been told and the art varies by the artist. Besides which, we don't know how much articulation your average 'Mech has in it's ankle and joints in it's foot, either.

Quote

Let's turn it around again and think of it a different way, if turning on city streets because of their special ferrocrete caused problems for mechs running through them at comparatively low speeds, imagine how much more dangerous that must be for local traffic!

I see no good reason to think that non-hovercraft would not have better grip than mechs on ferrocrete; they most likely have tires specifically built to grip just that kind of surface.

[ENDMYSUFFERING]

Iron Horse, on 30 November 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

According to the TT rules and canon, ferrocrete streets are actually slippery for 'mechs, due to the fact that 'mechs' feet are designed for all-terrain, and roads are better designed for rubber wheels., so would actually be difficult for 'mechs to get much traction.

If the 'mechs slip a bit when cornering at high speeds in-game I think this could add a cool dynamic. Especially for smaller 'mechs which should generally find some comfort in urban terrain this could add a little balance.

I am curious to see what everyone else thinks, and see if anyone else remembers this from TT rules.

The simple solution: Urbies with wheels. Make it happen.

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE: I think this should be implemented, it would add some good effect in to the game and make it more realistic.

Edited by Flametrace, 29 February 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Pht]

Nah, we need to get nike to make BattleMech sneakers.

Than we can have urban mech battles over who gets the air jordans....

[Thomas Hogarth]

A 'Mech should not skid/fall if walking on concrete.
A 'Mech should possibly skid/fall if running on concrete.

Tank vs 'Mech comparisons are invalid. Tanks have higher ground pressures than 'Mechs.

This is just like demanding the HBK-P or AWS-Q - you want a boat to be able to play the same way you did in MW2/3/4. Likewise, you want skidding out so you can ram the throttle to max at all times just like you did in MW2/3/4.

It's 2012, we can handle more complex mechanics now.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 29 February 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[GoLambo]

Pht, you're totally missing the context of what I said. I'm trying to suggest that every kind of vehicle is worse on soft terrain. That is, unless you're on the equivalent of ice or an otherwise very slippery surface you are likely going to have much better traction the firmer your terrain is. Asphalt for example, or even concrete, is going to make you slide less than dirt, even on relatively firm earth! There is some leeway on the extremes, laminates like you often find on concrete or tile are comparatively slippery so of course your cats don't get very good traction on it. Almost none of this has anything to do with the foot, those variables are only going to make up so much difference and besides that, we know that mechs don't make PSR's for travailing on dirt, which we know always has worse traction because it's an unstable surface. It's not that big a leap to suggest that sliding around on concrete when you DON'T slide around on dirt is a bit silly!

It's also entirely possible that Battletech Ferrocrete roads are slippery like a glossy tile, but that would be ridiculousness for city streets because it would be dangerous for regular road vehicles to travel on regardless of their tires. Anything that would give 50 ton Battlemechs trouble for traction would be just as bad for cars. It would be like driving to work on ice every day, it's just crazy! Now that I think of it, the big "problem" with a theoretical mech foot would be cleat like stilts for traction that would give you very poor performance over a flat surface by giving you a much smaller contact patch, but even then you'd have to assume that your 50 tons of mech didn't just sink into the terrain anyway, which would negate that problem.

[MaddMaxx]

When they introduce "Charging" into the game. I am going right to the "Game Store" and buy my ride some 12" FF Cleats.

The better to "Charge" you with baby!

[Randal Waide]

Mordegald, on 30 November 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

As long as it was slight enough that it was more like drift turning and less like a spin-out, then yeah, I could live with that. Hell, it could open up some pretty sweet maneuvers.

But only if we got a nice "crumbling asphalt" sound effect and a little cloud of black dust around the ankles to go with it. Super-asphalt or no, nothing holds up well with a bare minimum of 25 tons of solid metal skidding across it at 65+ kph.

Lol, an Atlas spinning out of control would be funny as hell to see.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Put on some leather soled shoes and go try and run around on the street. That's pretty much what I'd expect in terms of traction.

[Dihm]

My leather mocs do pretty dang well. Or are you refering to hard leather and not supple?

[TheRulesLawyer]

Dihm, on 01 March 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

My leather mocs do pretty dang well. Or are you refering to hard leather and not supple?

I was thinking like dress shoes.

[verybad]

I personallu don't buy it. The rule works for TT, but it's the kind of thing that would just **** people off rather than add any fun to the game. There are plenty of other things to knock you down in the game...

[Kairaveth]

Sorry if this has been covered I don't have time right now to read all the pages but skimmed threw a bit.

I see alot of talk about tracked vehicles, mechs, skidding and traciton. I haven't really seen alot of discusion about ground pressure.

http://en.wikipedia....Ground_pressure

There is alot of misconception, and misinformation about how it works. Maybe the link will help clear up a bit.

As for canon. Whatever draws the most playerbase so the game survives for years I could care less what is implemented or totally ignored. This game must appeal to the masses or it will fail. There aren't enough BT junnkies out there to keep the developers checkbooks in the black and outa the red.

[Burned_Follower]

Iron Horse, on 30 November 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

According to the TT rules and canon, ferrocrete streets are actually slippery for 'mechs, due to the fact that 'mechs' feet are designed for all-terrain, and roads are better designed for rubber wheels., so would actually be difficult for 'mechs to get much traction.

If the 'mechs slip a bit when cornering at high speeds in-game I think this could add a cool dynamic. Especially for smaller 'mechs which should generally find some comfort in urban terrain this could add a little balance.

I am curious to see what everyone else thinks, and see if anyone else remembers this from TT rules.

This would be so cool! Especially if it is an urban enviorment with light/medium lances going at it. Great idea.

[Risky]

Now that it has been explained to be, yes I do.

[PewPew]

Discussions like this are just painful to read.

"Should we take something a sci-fi writer from the 80's wrote as truth and then implement it into the game even though the cost of it outweighs the benefits? Also, because it fits the rules of physics (that is, the rules that I know and can apply selectively), this is justified"

Yes - 80%
No - 15%
Irrelevant option serving as an attempt at humor - 5%"

Well, at least it's not a
"This part of the science-fiction fantasy universe does not fit my limited understanding of real world physics. Should we get rid of it?"
thread

[Nick Makiaveli]

PewPew, on 01 March 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Discussions like this are just painful to read.
"Should we take something a sci-fi writer from the 80's wrote as truth and then implement it into the game even though the cost of it outweighs the benefits? Also, because it fits the rules of physics (that is, the rules that I know and can apply selectively), this is justified"

Yes - 80%
No - 15%
Irrelevant option serving as an attempt at humor - 5%"

Well, at least it's not a

"This part of the science-fiction fantasy universe does not fit my limited understanding of real world physics. Should we get rid of it?"
thread

It wasn't just something some writer made up. It was a rule that helped balance the game. Thus it could be used to serve the same purpose here.

As to physics etc, we don't know what properties ferrocrete has. Therefore it could be slippery to mechs. If it serves a game balance purpose, or just adds another layer of tactics to the game, then it needs to be slippery.

[Stone Profit]

Most definitely, skidding is hilarious when it happens. should be affected by the enviroment tho...

[Cyote13]

Phades, on 30 November 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

That rule was more arbitrary than anything in order to attempt to curtail overly easy flanking while in city with faster machines at close ranges. If mechs can crash through buildings, weapon fire destroying just about anything it hits, fires raging from napalm, I'm more inclined to think that a machine with serrated bottoms of feet (in order to have traction in the first place) weighing upwards of 100 tons and displacing 100% of that weight shift through each leg individually while moving in addition to the force offset to break inertia and gravity that the concrete is going to break up and lose before the mech is just going to slip like walking over grease in plastic bottomed slippers.

I have had a 13 ton M113 just about slide sideways into a ditch while trying to turn too fast on asphalt.

It will still be a good balance mechanism to keep the small fast mechs a little more honest about speed runs through the urban terrain.

[Larry Headrick]

Yes it should be in the game.


It shouldn't be at the running speed of the mech though. It should be based on tonage+speed the heaver mechs will slip at lower speed than a lighter mech.


2 50 ton mechs will start to slip at the same speed regardless of their Top speed.

The first match i ever played was in a city in a locust. I ran into a Shadowhawk. So i ran away fast turned to go down a side street and fell, skidded into a building. Ammo exploded and i lost my mech.


Fun times. It was hilarious