158 replies to this topic

[Paladin1]

Seriously, `Mechs may be designed for cross-country travel and can fight in any environment, but it doesn't mean that certain environments aren't going to be more troublesome than others.

I've seen modern bulldozers slide and skid on dry concrete, even at low speeds, so why shouldn't a `Mech slide on wet concrete/asphalt, especially when they're running? Steel on concrete is slippery, there's no getting around that, not to mention that the mechanics for a run and a walk are fundamentally different. Running isn't just a fast walk and the TT skidding rules reflect this.

[Agasutin]

MaddMaxx, on 01 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

FIX = Rotate torso to 90 (in direction of turn) then when at the apex of intersection, hit the SpaceBar. Wheee!!!

I see what you did there..

[Hunter McGee]

Simple law of physics... 75 tons moving at 64.8kph with limited tread to ground surface area... DUH!!!! And that is only the ON1-K Orion.
Take the CGR-1A1 Charger... 80 tons moving at 86.4kph Small feet limited tread area, no depression of the ground, and you will have a problem to say the least. I honestly hope they incorporate this feature, but it would be rather tough to program I would think.

[Caballo]

Have you ever seen the marks a rim w/o tire leaves in the asphalt? well, imagine a 20 ton battlemech pushing it's whole weight on one foot when moving, I haven't got to make any maths to assure it will leave a mark.

Asphalt, concrete, etc are not granite solid. they are conglomerates, so if you hit them with 50 tons in a 10m2 square, i doubt the surface would take that brutal pressure w/o brokening down, Ergo the mech will not "Slip" on those surfaces, it will thread them.

[mekabuser]

yep, this is an aspect of immersion that i think is verah important. A subset of the major branch of immersion which is how a mech moves through the enviroment in the first place.
A lot of which is really the lower half of the mech , and how the upper half responds. WHether that means how the mech reacts while going up and down inclines, weapons fire incoming, <both>
I wonder if there will be some sort of internal gyro that will respond real time to the angle and pitch of the mech. ?\
THese are things which are much more important to me than visual awesome which the devs have proved they have already

[Armageddon]

This video proves that even on a slick concrete surface Mechs do not slip at all:

Edited by Armageddon, 01 December 2011 - 03:33 PM.

[Eegxeta]

Iron Horse, on 30 November 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

According to the TT rules and canon, ferrocrete streets are actually slippery for 'mechs, due to the fact that 'mechs' feet are designed for all-terrain, and roads are better designed for rubber wheels., so would actually be difficult for 'mechs to get much traction.

If the 'mechs slip a bit when cornering at high speeds in-game I think this could add a cool dynamic. Especially for smaller 'mechs which should generally find some comfort in urban terrain this could add a little balance.

I am curious to see what everyone else thinks, and see if anyone else remembers this from TT rules.

So what this is basically saying is the roads have very little friction or the mech's all-terrain foot is not all-terrain. Neither of these make sense roads are designed to have a lot of friction so the wheels on vehicles have traction and the all-terrain feet of mech would be designed to maximizes friction so the mech doesn't slip and slide. Mechs are also very heavy and if a mech were to walk over loose soil I don't think that soil is going to be loose any more it would be packed down. Someone put up a video of a tank slide and said that it is similar, the way similar was used he means the same and no it is not the same, but if similar was used correctly he would be right. A tank's treads are designed to create traction on terrain with low traction as it is a vehicle it needs traction so the treads move the tank instead of just kicking up dirt. A mech moves by walking so lifting it's legs in the air, so it doesn't need traction it needs friction. Friction and traction are not the same thing but they are similar. And if you aren't sold on that a mechs foot can easily be designed for both; the front would be designed for surfaces like dirt, snow, etc and the back would be designed for flat surfaces like roads (you can buy shoes like this). A tank has treads which can possibly be designed for roads, but it can't be designed for both roads and off-road at the same time.

I'm not even going to vote because the answers are very bias as they say: The TT rules are absolutely 100% right no matter what, when, how, or where. The second assumes the first and the last one is straight from commander clueless and a quote of the average person's political views slightly changed to be applicable.

Oh and that mech costume is pretty cool.

Edited by Eegxeta, 01 December 2011 - 04:30 PM.

[Karyudo ds]

Paladin1, on 01 December 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

I've seen modern bulldozers slide and skid on dry concrete, even at low speeds...

How many 10 meter tall modern bulldozers have you seen exactly? A mech is not like a tank, it's center of gravity would be higher simply from being taller. If you have a low center of gravity you're more likely to slide, if it's high then you're probably just going to topple over. Like the sock example your feet might slip, but most of your weight is above the knee or even hip, it will not remain in perfect line with the feet at high velocity changes. So if your feet slid, they'd slide out and you'd topple, if they didn't you'd just topple outward. I don't see how an entire mech would simply slide very far, certainly not over 30 meters unless it was intentional.

[Trogusaur]

I think this canon business is becoming its own beast in itself. If absolutely every factor in this game is going to go "the way it was meant to be", what is the point of the game itself? I agree that slipping utilities should be in this game, but if every last detail is going to be canon then who would ever want to join the losing side? Maybe I'm just not understanding...

[Eegxeta]

Lord Trogus, on 01 December 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

I think this canon business is becoming its own beast in itself. If absolutely every factor in this game is going to go "the way it was meant to be", what is the point of the game itself? I agree that slipping utilities should be in this game, but if every last detail is going to be canon then who would ever want to join the losing side? Maybe I'm just not understanding...

I agree completely and would like to add: Canon is not always right as stated in my first post.

Edited by Eegxeta, 01 December 2011 - 04:34 PM.

[Armageddon]

Lord Trogus, on 01 December 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

I think this canon business is becoming its own beast in itself. If absolutely every factor in this game is going to go "the way it was meant to be", what is the point of the game itself? I agree that slipping utilities should be in this game, but if every last detail is going to be canon then who would ever want to join the losing side? Maybe I'm just not understanding...

I hate to admit it, but I agree with you. I really don't want an "orthodox" 1980s version of Mechwarrior. I want a modern 2012 Mechwarrior game with modern/futuristic looking Mechs & equipment. In Star Trek terms this game should be "The Next Generation" to "The Original Series" that was Mechwarrior from the 80s.

Edit: Oh my goodness I can't believe I just typed that... /faceinpalms

Edited by Armageddon, 01 December 2011 - 04:35 PM.

[Trogusaur]

Armageddon, on 01 December 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

I hate to admit it, but I agree with you. I really don't want an "orthodox" 1980s version of Mechwarrior. I want a modern 2012 Mechwarrior game with modern/futuristic looking Mechs & equipment. In Star Trek terms this game should be "The Next Generation" to "The Original Series" that was Mechwarrior from the 80s.

"Not your daddy's Mechwarrior", right? I thought that was what we're trying to get to at some point. I appreciate the length the producers are going to in order to make it original, but we the community should be able to make a difference in-game if this is really a MMO

[Armageddon]

Lord Trogus, on 01 December 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

"Not your daddy's Mechwarrior", right? I thought that was what we're trying to get to at some point. I appreciate the length the producers are going to in order to make it original, but we the community should be able to make a difference in-game if this is really a MMO

I agree with you on all points as long as the goal remains the same. A modern successful interpretation of my favorite Video Game franchise of all time. =)

[Joachim Viltry]

If a 60+ ton Main Battle Tank can slide in a turn moving at 45MPH, then certainly any running battlemech (which will have a much higher ground pressure than the tank) certainly will.

[Joachim Viltry]

Karyudo-ds, on 01 December 2011 - 04:07 PM, said:

Like the sock example your feet might slip, but most of your weight is above the knee or even hip, it will not remain in perfect line with the feet at high velocity changes. So if your feet slid, they'd slide out and you'd topple, if they didn't you'd just topple outward.

Answered your own question, really.

How do YOU counteract a slide? You move to maintain balance without falling over, so either you fail at that and stumble (possibly fall and skid), or you compensate and get your feet back under you - you may slide some, but you got it under control. Either way, one is a skid/stumble/ and possible fall (which results in you eating asphalt), and for a large warmachine could mean being facedown with bits of tarmac rolled up over your cockpit. while the other is a skid/stumble/recovery where you slid slightly, and got back on track, which for a mech means the skid either basically did not happen, or was manageable.

- of course in TT it is all an abstraction; just as missed to hit rolls don't always mean the weapon missed but also includes glancing hits that do no damage, not every skid is JUST a skid, stumbles, tumbles, and other *ahem* "cornering accidents" are included for the sake of brevity. really how one chooses to interpret the results has always been up to imagination; much like how in D&D a failed roll can be interpreted in any number of ways.(and often are for dramatic/comedic effect) the end result is to add FLAVOR to a game.

[Paladin1]

Karyudo-ds, on 01 December 2011 - 04:07 PM, said:

How many 10 meter tall modern bulldozers have you seen exactly? A mech is not like a tank, it's center of gravity would be higher simply from being taller. If you have a low center of gravity you're more likely to slide, if it's high then you're probably just going to topple over. Like the sock example your feet might slip, but most of your weight is above the knee or even hip, it will not remain in perfect line with the feet at high velocity changes. So if your feet slid, they'd slide out and you'd topple, if they didn't you'd just topple outward. I don't see how an entire mech would simply slide very far, certainly not over 30 meters unless it was intentional.

Wait, why do you assume that a `Mech would just topple over and then stop? The PSR for a skid determines if you'd fall or not from trying to make the turn. You don't skid upright, the skid is after the fall. Seriously, read page 62 of Total Warfare.

The fact that a dozer would skid on concrete was an effort to make the point that a fallen `Mech who was at speed prior to the failed PSR would skid along the ground after the fall. How far it would skid is determined by how fast it was traveling before the fall.

[Paladin1]

Lord Trogus, on 01 December 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

I think this canon business is becoming its own beast in itself. If absolutely every factor in this game is going to go "the way it was meant to be", what is the point of the game itself? I agree that slipping utilities should be in this game, but if every last detail is going to be canon then who would ever want to join the losing side? Maybe I'm just not understanding...

Seriously, the problem is coming from those who don't really know the developer's logic behind that canon. Skidding is one such topic, the general technology decline is another and God help those who try to tackle weapon ranges. There's a logic behind these decisions and often it delves into hard sciences and engineering more than most would believe. Even the infamous "Stackpole Maneuver" has hard science behind it, not just a desire to see things explode.

Trust me on this one, I've followed the game long enough to actually get to talk to those developers and have heard first hand how the logic progressions came to be and what decisions were made for what reasons. The rules in Total Warfare were written to reflect a hard science sci-fi universe and with very few exceptions it does a good job in sticking within the bounds of physics as we currently understand it.

[Dlardrageth]

Armageddon, on 01 December 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

This video proves that even on a slick concrete surface Mechs do not slip at all:
[...]

While I applaud the sheer nerd-factor of that vid, it proves exactly nothing. Is this "Mech" running at 50+ kph? No! Is this Mech running on ferroconcrete? No! Do half the people arguing here apparently think we're talking about Mechs taking a stroll at 10 kph should skid? Apparently yes, 'cuz something must be wronmg with their reading comprehension!

A Mech walking/patrolling at a slower speed has no issues with skidding. Period. One running at full speed taking sharp turns will have on some surfaces. And no, the surface won't automatically buckle so your Mech can "dig in" his feet, not even under a 100-ton Atlas, Because ferroconcrete was actually made so you can land and rest a friggin' dropship on it. You think they completely refurbish the starports after every dropship landing/start?

Simple laws of physics don't change because it doesn't suit your (imagined) gameplay. If it will be implemented (which I'm confident of), you'll have to think about how fast you try to cut corners in an urben enviropnment, or you might have to face the music. There might be sort of an exception of sorts for low-/heavy gravity worlds. But a Mech is not a Hovertank, skidding is not an integral part of its common movement (if you don't know what I'm talking about here, try driving a Hovercraft once, I suggest).

If I wanted a game based on none or bullshit physics, I could as well go play WoW or something and wave my magic stick to take flight. Snip my fingers and turn that 90-ton Mech into something the size of a hamster. Etc., etc. ad nauseam. Gundam SD anyone? Yep, that game concept sounds like a real winner for a BattleTech game...

[MaddMaxx]

To keep it simple, while believable, it stills makes sense to have it be like my diagram. The bigger you are you corner on a larger ARC given the same speeds. Physics dictates a Mass in motion will stay in motion until otherwise effected.

If that motion is straight ahead and a hard turn is attempted, it will take time for that mass to adapt to that directional change, thus an ARC is employed. Moving something above 5 tons from one direction, to another at 90 degrees, while moving above 40-50kph, isn't gonna happen immediately. We call what happens "drifting".

Here is a test for everyone. Find an alley (width 3X your shoulders (10-15 ft.)) that has another 90 degree alley (width 3X your shoulders) off of it with a run up of about 50 yards. Now run down said alley at your FULL speed.

When you reach the other allies opening, at 90 degrees, turn into it.

No cheating on the run up angle. Got a friend who weigh more than you, get them to try it as well.

After 4-5 tries each, note how many times you either 1) Ran into the wall on the right/left of said opening, or 2) had to simply slow down to get into said alley without bouncing off the walls.

Now extrapolate that data to a humanoid based BattleMech that weighs 400X a 200 lb person. We aren't going be Rolling dice last I heard.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 02 December 2011 - 08:29 AM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

I want immersion with a keen eye toward canon balanced with playability. I want mech feet to sink and churn in sand and mud, singe in fire, scorch in lava, crush snow, and be "unstable" on slick surfaces whether its ice, wet steel, smooth oily concrete or whatever. Should mechs slip and over turn like grandma on ice skates? no.. but there should be a difference in how the mech moves when it changes surfaces.