158 replies to this topic

[Psycho Tick]

I don't understand why everyone is comparing tanks and 'Mechs.
I mean, excluding whatever qualms there were of ground pressure on the previous page, the comparison makes no sense. Tracks are not the same a feet.
If this is implemented at all, 'slipping' should only occur on positive acceleration. When you run for a bit, then stop, you stop running gradually, 'Mechs do exactly the same. There is no reason a 'Mech would slide around.
And stop talking about 'realism'. It's lost with 'Mech'. 'Mechs are meant to use the same movement of humans; regardless of what you wear on the bottom of your feet, go run on concrete and slide. It doesn't work. You don't slide. You slow down. When you turn, you don't just **** ninety degrees and take off. Either you gradually turn, or slow down, stop/turn, go.

[SMDMadCow]

I voted no, because i never fully understood why it was a rule in the TT. The hexes represent a 30 meter area, so why the turning on a dime and slipping when you have such a large area to turn in?

[Mano Del Dio]

I'm going to go with yes on this one. Ignoring the fact that its a part of the tabletop rules, with the example of a tank on concret skidding at higher speeds in mind then I find it completely plausible that a mech on ferrocrete would skid in specific situations of highspeeds and sharp turns in relation the the mechs weight.

Despite the fact that a mech will have a far far larger impact on a surface compared to a tank due to the nature of them stomping the ground, I figure the nature of ferrocrete more than makes up for this. Meaning that even though an Atlas is pretty beastly, its not going to churn up the road like it certainly would on modern day concrete.

Additionally, with such things as neurohelmets and gyroscopes and (god willing ) good piloting training, one would at least hope to drastically reduce the effects of skidding so that your mech isn't constantly falling on its arse but you may find comfort in a concrete building.

Aside from these musings, I bloody well hope its in the game so I can do it on purpose, guns a blaze.

[Ray Mason]

Even though I don’t know the coefficient of friction it would be difficult to take turns anyway due to the need to lean heavily. The question is what happens first – the ground crumbling or the angle being too big. If the ground didn’t crumble under the pressure of a bipedal walker running (flexible feet, very little surface area) leaned to one side then depending on the friction and width of streets you could take turns for example at about 30kmph (leaning at 16°, μ=0,3) and the extreme would be about 60kmph (leaning at 45°, μ=1) both with streets about 16m wide.

While I think the mech should easily tell you if you’re running too fast to take a turn it might make it more fun if it was an issue of piloting in the game. Ether way I can’t see even the light mechs take turns much faster, it’s not like their top speed is an indicator of a realistic combat speed. Supposing light/scout mechs have special soles refurbished after each drop (μ=1) you’d need streets 80m wide for a turn at almost 130kmph (40m wide for more common speed 90kmph)…

So, what’s the usual BT street like? .

[Fresh Meat]

Loaded pole

[Sp12]

Ignoring the trollacious poll options, this sounds like a terrible idea for gameplay. I mean canon or not, if it makes the game less fun then why?

[Zhanna Kerensky]

Methinks, absolutely not, unless they have been prepared to so (for example, oil and soap) or to serve as a trap, because mechs of the mech movement and gyro function (which is not challenged on concrete/asphalt) and there are plenty of other environmental scenarios that merit slipperiness causing difficult manoeuvrability and control of a mech, for instance, tundra or drift ice as suggested in a different topic:

http://mwomercs.com/...limited-access/

[bishop]

First of all this poll is absolutely stupid, just because it is or isn't canon doesn't mean it's unrealistic; we need to keep in mind that mechs do not exist and battletech is not the all holy bible on what would be realistic for a 100 ton mech.

Now think about this, is a 100 ton mech slamming his foot down into concrete likely doubling the amount of force being applied to the concrete going to simply slide along like a gundam? Absolutely not. And to that point, if sliding is in any way shape or form in MWO upon release; I will be severely disappointed because if I wanted to slide around in a building sized steel robot then I would go play armored core.

Also we can look to modern day tanks for the answer to this, going 45 miles per hour they do not simply slide along if they stop.

Edited by bishop, 03 March 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Wyzak]

it really depends on weight and surface area. A Daishi probably will never get enough speed to cause it to "ski" in controlled fashion, though it would certainly have enough inertia to linebacker-tackle an apartment complex. Whereas a raven has a very small metal surface area on the feet and has a top speed of 100kph, it is reasonable to assume it could skid at top speed. Someone mentioned that we shouldn't be comparing tanks to mechs but really, tanks are even less likely to skid then mechs because they are totally flat and have course treads. If a tank can skid on a wet/icy/muddy/flat surface, so should a mech.

[bishop]

From what I recall mechs didn't slide in mechwarrior 1-4 so they shouldn't slide in MWO. They shouldn't be able to stop on a dime either.

[Ghostrider45]

this is a BULL * *** Q you ever run a fifty ton bulldozer over asplet are concret you do not slip an slide any where! you set a foot that weights fifty tons and is ten to fifteen feet squer down its not going to move unlease you hit it with something very big an heavey!!!!!!!

[UncleKulikov]

Adding complexity to the game doesn't always make it better.

What speed would a mech skid? At what weight class? On which surfaces? During what surface conditions? And how would this be communicated to the player? How far would the skid go? Could the mech fall over?

Having to learn the specific triggers for all of those factors for all of the different mechs you are going to control is a pain, especially for something that can affect gameplay as much as an uncontrolled skid, and potential fall.

And no one seems to consider the concrete fracturing under the mech's feet, creating more surface.

This kind of realism doesn't add much to the game experience other than frustration and inconsistency. The players who memorize all of the above data would get a slight edge in very specific situations, while everyone else has to deal with a fringe mechanic that can unexpectedly throw off their whole game.

[Wyzak]

Kulikov, that's a very good point, and kudos to you for pointing out something I temporarily forgot which is that the feet will probably imprint themselves on any flat surface on all but the lightest mechs.

[guardiandashi]

you know you people who are argueing that blah blah its unrealistic to slip blah.

2 answers for you
#1 coeficient of friction
#2 MASS

what does this mean?
coeficient of friction if I get a car truck going 20+ mph and stomp the breaks HARD enough I can lock up the tires, at that point if the coefficient of friction is too low the tire will slide along the ground rather than significantly slowing the vehicle down.

mass as it applies to friction the lightest battlemech weighs 20 metric tons if its feet are properly sized they will not "accidently" damage the surface of the road it is walking on. if it is not tearing up the surface, then it can't "dig in" and it needs to rely exclusively on friction to make changes to its speed and or direction of travel.

I don't know about you, but I have a simple friction demonstration walk on bare dry road not very slippery right? now try wet pavement, lot slipperier, now try ice slippery as heck.

I am not saying that dry pavement for a mech is like walking on ice... but I would bet that proportionately for its mass its a lot closer to ice than dry pavement is for me

[Psycho Tick]

Stop with comparing 'Mechs to modern land-vehicles! A 'Mech will not operate like a car, truck or tank! Jesus Christ.

'Mechs walk and run, not drive. Their method is step by step, not rotation of a wheel. When you turn a 'Mech, it's a gradual process.
A 'Mech could not turn on a dime regardless what speed it goes, it is too big. This rule is stupid, it's pointless (for the scenario of MWO).

[Ray Mason]

I’ve actually had a discussion about this and we’ve come up with three solutions. The first is an anime-style solution to use the opposite building as an inclined plane , the second solution is to use your arms to shift your centre of gravity and thus enabling you to run at smaller angle and the third solution is track spikes!

[Sp12]

bishop, on 03 March 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

First of all this poll is absolutely stupid, just because it is or isn't canon doesn't mean it's unrealistic; we need to keep in mind that mechs do not exist and battletech is not the all holy bible on what would be realistic for a 100 ton mech.

In case you missed it, this is a BT community. We want nothing that isn't in the canon and nothing in the canon missing. Gameplay is of secondary importance to fitting with the canon of an 80s board game.

[Atlai]

I never played the TT (to young) but this sounds good

Sp12, on 03 March 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

In case you missed it, this is a BT community. We want nothing that isn't in the canon and nothing in the canon missing. Gameplay is of secondary importance to fitting with the canon of an 80s board game.

while i do think gameplay is importent i do like the idea of sliping cuz im just going to get a really fast mech then trip and slide into your mech and knock you over : )

[Sp12]

Mason West, on 03 March 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I never played the TT (to young) but this sounds good


while i do think gameplay is importent i do like the idea of sliping cuz im just going to get a really fast mech then trip and slide into your mech and knock you over : )

And you could do that if it was in the board game.

[TheSlowTrain]

Regardless of how realistic or cannon it is having not been exposed to either I think it should be put in based entirely on my opinion that a mech grinding down the road at high speeds would look totally awesome.