460 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Mawai, on 14 July 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

Hehe

You do realize that you can't see ANY laser beam unless the light scatters off something in the air? The more dust or other particles in the air ... the greater the beam attenuation and the greater the scattered light ... making it easier to see. Without that, you won't see a thing no matter what actual colour the laser might be. For example, in a near vacuum like HPG, lasers are essentially invisible.

Ah, but if the power output of the laser is high enough to ionize the gasses making up the atmosphere, the path of the beam will be visible.

Edited by Mystere, 14 July 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Ultimax]

DONTOR, on 14 July 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I would LOVE to be able to aim with Gauss in my Clan mechs arms, can i.s. mechs do this? YES

This is how you do that. Now your Gauss arm piggy backs off of the range of motion granted by one arm's lower actuator.


Oh, and Jager? No lower actuators.

K2? Can't even slot them in the arms.


I'm using these two examples now, because you brought them up in the quote below as shining examples of IS gauss builds.

DONTOR, on 14 July 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

Are there many Clan mechs capable of running dual Gauss even though they weigh 3 tons less? NO.

i.s. dual gauss mechs jaeger, cataphract, Catapult, King Crab. = 4

Clan Dual Gauss mechs, Cauldron Born, Dire Wolf, Warhawk. = 3

Jager runs Gauss well, but it's still fragile with XL and relatively slow.

Cataphract is a worse version of the Jager, even though it has more tonnage.
Relatively slow, low slung arms/torso mounts for ballistics, XL.

Catapult? There is a reason we almost never see this any more.
Run it with XL and you are basically a time bomb.
Run it with standard and you travel sub 70 KPH with 5 tons of ammo an no backup weapons.

King Crab: does it well, inferior to Dire Wolf.




So out of the 4 you mentioned only 2 are really viable as good builds and both are inferior to same tonnage clan versions (EBJ Dual Gauss > Jager. DWF > KCG).


What's more important, or pertinent?

How many total mechs can run it, or which faction has the superior platforms?


My answer is the latter.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 14 July 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[R Razor]

Alistair Winter, on 13 July 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Is the gauss Dire Wolf better than the gauss King Crab? Is the gauss Ebon Jag better than the gauss Jagermech? Is the gauss Shadowcat better than the Grid Iron?

Answer to question 1.......marginally but not enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Answer to question 2.........are you honestly trying to compare an EBJ to a glass cannon (or unbelievable SLOW) Jag????? Hell yes the EBJ is better, hands down!!!!

Answer to question 3..........no idea, have never run either of those mechs, although my gut feeling is that the quirked GI probably outperforms it until it runs out of ammo or runs into a Dire or EBJ.

Edited by R Razor, 14 July 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Mystere]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Not that im a big Lore guy...

But one of the MAIN THEMES of Clan Invasion is one side was terribly out-gunned. LORE.

And most of the people who did Stock Mech Mondays WANTED the experience of numerous but weaker IS mechs vs fewer OP Clan mechs.

We did after all, switch and trade who was Clan and IS...

The numbers that worked was 5 vs 8 and 8 vs 12. But that was pre-quirk. Most agreed that was a good 'feel'.

But, but, but ...self-proclaimed "experts" declared that such an asymmetric system will not work, never, ever.

[Alistair Winter]

R Razor, on 14 July 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

Answer to question 1.......marginally but not enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Answer to question 2.........are you honestly trying to compare an EBJ to a glass cannon (or unbelievable SLOW) Jag????? Hell yes the EBJ is better, hands down!!!!

They were rhetorical questions. My point is, you can't just look at the spreadsheet comparing IS and Clan weapons. It's more complicated than that.

[InspectorG]

Mystere, on 14 July 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

But, but, but ...self-proclaimed "experts" declared that such an asymmetric system will not work, never, ever.

I believe they claimed 'MM would never ever work'...

[IraqiWalker]

Prosperity Park, on 13 July 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Clan Gauss Rifle weighs 3 tons less than the IS version. What are the balancing factors used to compensate for this?

Does it have a slower charge-up time? No.
Does it have a slower recycle time? No.
Shorter range? Less damage? No. No.
Does it take up more slots? No, opposite, it takes up fewer slots.
Does it explode more easily? No; in fact Clanners get 0-tonnage CASE on every arm and torso section to boot.
Does it cause more internal damage when it explodes? No.


Does it do anything at all that balances the 3 fewer tons and 1 fewer slot? No.

When can we expect a change to this situation?

(This is not an IS player whining, this is a video gamer scratching his head in wonder)

Fixed equipment slots.

That's the biggest one. Clan Gauss has to be smaller, otherwise, it can't be mounted on most clan mechs.

Lack of STD engines is another one. Since C-Gauss is usually mounted in the STs, it's a huge risk, even for omni mechs, which have built in case for every section.

[Mystere]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

How would you replace the current convergence model without CoF? Limited weapon groupings with cooldown between groups? Intrigued but not quite following you.

One way is to make convergence fixed to a certain distance, while have separate convergence for left and right arm-mounted weapons (i.e. no arm lock if at all possible). But, allow the convergence point to be manually adjustable in the Mechlab and in-battle.

[IraqiWalker]

Mystere, on 14 July 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

One way is to make convergence fixed to a certain distance, while have separate convergence for left and right arm-mounted weapons (i.e. no arm lock if at all possible). But, allow the convergence point to be manually adjustable in the Mechlab and in-battle.

I've had this idea for a while now, of scaling convergence where even the hardpoint location is factored in (CT, and ST hardpoints will converge faster than arm hardpoints, for example). Weapons will have their own modifiers to convergence too. So energy weapons will converge faster than ballistic weapons (on average) for example. We'd need to have at least three reticles, the CT one, and then one for each arm. (If we could have one for each weapon, I would die a happy man)

[Kristov Kerensky]

Ultimatum X, on 14 July 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

This is how you do that. Now your Gauss arm piggy backs off of the range of motion granted by one arm's lower actuator.


Oh, and Jager? No lower actuators.

K2? Can't even slot them in the arms.


I'm using these two examples now, because you brought them up in the quote below as shining examples of IS gauss builds.






Jager runs Gauss well, but it's still fragile with XL and relatively slow.

Cataphract is a worse version of the Jager, even though it has more tonnage.
Relatively slow, low slung arms/torso mounts for ballistics, XL.

Catapult? There is a reason we almost never see this any more.
Run it with XL and you are basically a time bomb.
Run it with standard and you travel sub 70 KPH with 5 tons of ammo an no backup weapons.

King Crab: does it well, inferior to Dire Wolf.




So out of the 4 you mentioned only 2 are really viable as good builds and both are inferior to same tonnage clan versions (EBJ Dual Gauss > Jager. DWF > KCG).


What's more important, or pertinent?

How many total mechs can run it, or which faction has the superior platforms?


My answer is the latter.

You DO realize that the Gauss arm won't actually aim where the target reticle is, right? Or do you actually believe the non-mobile arm will somehow magically start being mobile because the OTHER arm is? First hand experience speaking here, it does NOT work that way, seriously, it doesn't do that. You will aim at something to the side, fire, and watch your round go STRAIGHT ahead because that arm has no actuator to move it to the side...do you even drive Clan Mechs?

And I hate to tell you this but I'll take my King Crab with dual Gauss over my Dire with dual Gauss any day of the week, I can actually twist with my KC and spread damage out, no way to do that with the Dire, and my KC moves faster, twists more and faster, and is just a better platform all around, despite the Dire being able to carry more sheer firepower. Again, do you even drive Clan Mechs?

[InspectorG]

Mystere, on 14 July 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

One way is to make convergence fixed to a certain distance, while have separate convergence for left and right arm-mounted weapons (i.e. no arm lock if at all possible). But, allow the convergence point to be manually adjustable in the Mechlab and in-battle.

Interesting.

But past convergence, wouldnt everything scatter and possibly 'overload' HSR??? Im no techie, just guessing worst case scenario.

[Kristov Kerensky]

InspectorG, on 14 July 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

Interesting.

But past convergence, wouldnt everything scatter and possibly 'overload' HSR??? Im no techie, just guessing worst case scenario.

The shots would cross at that point and continue on in straight lines, forming a big X with that point as the crossing, you can actually see it now ingame by firing at something and having it move out of the line of fire before the shots hit it.

One simple way to do convergence, IF the engine will allow it, which I honestly don't know, is to actually turn off autoconvergence and make the system calculate it with a slight time delay, which WAS the original plan, hence the skill tree for it. Evidently the engine won't do it, or PGI can't figure it out, I don't know which. I'm not aware of the CryEngine being used in such a fashion in any other game, even SC doesn't do that, convergence is automatic and instant there too, and they are using much greater ranges than MWO weapons do, so it may simply be something the engine can't handle.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

You DO realize that the Gauss arm won't actually aim where the target reticle is, right? Or do you actually believe the non-mobile arm will somehow magically start being mobile because the OTHER arm is? First hand experience speaking here, it does NOT work that way, seriously, it doesn't do that. You will aim at something to the side, fire, and watch your round go STRAIGHT ahead because that arm has no actuator to move it to the side...do you even drive Clan Mechs?

And I hate to tell you this but I'll take my King Crab with dual Gauss over my Dire with dual Gauss any day of the week, I can actually twist with my KC and spread damage out, no way to do that with the Dire, and my KC moves faster, twists more and faster, and is just a better platform all around, despite the Dire being able to carry more sheer firepower. Again, do you even drive Clan Mechs?

Dude... no it doesn't. It goes where the arm reticle is. One lower arm actuator gives both arms half the arm articulation 2 lower arm actuators would.

And I hate to break it to you, but the Dual Gauss/Laser Vomit Dire Wolf is the current assault king. What it loses in maneuverability it makes up for, and more, with fire power and DHS. The closest King Crab I have to it has a STD 300 engine and a 62 point alpha, at 297m.

[InspectorG]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

The shots would cross at that point and continue on in straight lines, forming a big X with that point as the crossing, you can actually see it now ingame by firing at something and having it move out of the line of fire before the shots hit it.

One simple way to do convergence, IF the engine will allow it, which I honestly don't know, is to actually turn off autoconvergence and make the system calculate it with a slight time delay, which WAS the original plan, hence the skill tree for it. Evidently the engine won't do it, or PGI can't figure it out, I don't know which. I'm not aware of the CryEngine being used in such a fashion in any other game, even SC doesn't do that, convergence is automatic and instant there too, and they are using much greater ranges than MWO weapons do, so it may simply be something the engine can't handle.

Well there is that, the technical side.

I was thinking that weapons have a 'weapon grouping limit' and groups can only be chain fired with a cooldown between groups.
Alphas could exist but would be very detrimental to use unless it gimped certain builds(poptarts mainly)

They limited triple gauss in a similar way, people seem happy with it, take it to the next step.

So:

like, a HBK-P with 9E can only put 3ML/MPL, 2LL/LPL, 4Sl/SPL in one firing group.
An all ML HBK would have 3 groups of 3ML that have to wait 1 second(after previous group burn ends) before the next gets fired.

This would naturally favor boats like HBK/Nova/BNC/etc...so shrink all or some of the groups.

Limit gauss to only 1 group and no more dual gauss, but Gauss+other is still good.

5UAC5 Dire would have 2,2,1 with a second between each group unless they risk a jam...which can be buffed/nerfed with a quirk.

Catapult A, might be able to only fire LRM10/15/20 in groups of 2 but LRM5 in groups of 3.

So, yeah i was thinking limit the pinpoint/damage from the groupings.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 July 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Dude... no it doesn't. It goes where the arm reticle is. One lower arm actuator gives both arms half the arm articulation 2 lower arm actuators would.

And I hate to break it to you, but the Dual Gauss/Laser Vomit Dire Wolf is the current assault king. What it loses in maneuverability it makes up for, and more, with fire power and DHS. The closest King Crab I have to it has a STD 300 engine and a 62 point alpha, at 297m.

Did they change that or something, because I tried it when Dire's were new thinking it might do that, my Gauss rounds always fired straight ahead, only vertical changed, so I stopped trying that trick. Still not really worth it, half movement, with a Mech that has little horizontal arm movement at best, far from what I can do with my King Crab.

And sorry, but I prefer my King over my Dire, dual Gauss, 2 or 3 ERL depending on which one I use(2 for CW, more ammo), I can take a Dire face to face and survive longer than that Dire can. Or my dual 20/ERL build, same thing, I can survive the encounter, the Dire won't, simply because I can spread the damage while he can't. Yeah, they can put out a lot more sheer DPS, but they run hotter, can't twist, and have to spend more time facing the target, that's a bad combo.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 14 July 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

But, but, but ...self-proclaimed "experts" declared that such an asymmetric system will not work, never, ever.

If you can add 'must always have 35% more IS players than Clan players, evenly spread across weight classes, all matched for Elo' to the Matchmaker and have it work then there are dozens of even better equations you can add. Oh, also no mixed factions on teams for pug/group queue.

Not to mention the result is not hard to predict - everyone migrates to Clans as soon as they can afford it because Being OP > Being Zergling, resulting in huge lopsided Elo/vet population and absolutely insanely bad NPE. 'You're an expendable munchkin for veteran players to wade through with optimized OP mechs, but don't worry! You can get butchered in large numbers and hopefully overwhelm them with your dead bodies!'

Clans were always an embarrassing Mary Sue creation that got largely walked back in every following iteration of BT. There is no plot armor in MW:O, which is what actually balanced the Clans in TT, BV and relative numbers absolutely didn't.

How about this - we make IS 300% superior to Clans and let Clans have the numbers and just require mercs to play in Clan mechs! You'll fill the population then. That'll work great -

Except that 99.999% of all Clan players will immediately flip to the IS, because they're not in it for 'lore', they're in it for a lore-justified Mary Sue PvP experience and trying to force other people to play redshirts for them. Look at these threads - 'But we're SUPPOSED to be OP! WHY WON'T YOU JUST LET US BE OP?!? I'll let you die twice as often! Isn't that fair?'

These threads border on painful to read.

IS/Clans need balanced ton for ton, mech for mech for CW to really work out. Otherwise you can throw it away and go with Solaris with mix tech and call it good. You're never going to get an 8 IS to every 5 Clan player population, balanced for class, tonnage and the like. Certainly not anything like Elo balanced. Will never happen. Was hard for tournaments to get people to split that way with a dozen players, never going to happen with thousands.

[IraqiWalker]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

Did they change that or something, because I tried it when Dire's were new thinking it might do that, my Gauss rounds always fired straight ahead, only vertical changed, so I stopped trying that trick. Still not really worth it, half movement, with a Mech that has little horizontal arm movement at best, far from what I can do with my King Crab.

And sorry, but I prefer my King over my Dire, dual Gauss, 2 or 3 ERL depending on which one I use(2 for CW, more ammo), I can take a Dire face to face and survive longer than that Dire can. Or my dual 20/ERL build, same thing, I can survive the encounter, the Dire won't, simply because I can spread the damage while he can't. Yeah, they can put out a lot more sheer DPS, but they run hotter, can't twist, and have to spend more time facing the target, that's a bad combo.

My DWF-Prime pumps out 94 damage in one alpha. I really can't see a way for your crab to survive a 1 on 1 with it, and while it's cooling down, it's still firing 2 Gauss Rifles non-stop. I pilot both mechs, and I love the mobility on the King Crab, but I also recognize that it can't mount as many weapons, and in a 1 v 1 situation, where both mechs are fresh, damage is on the DWF's side.

I will not say one is always superior to the other though. Piloting style, and build choices make a huge different.

[Sjorpha]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

You DO realize that the Gauss arm won't actually aim where the target reticle is, right? Or do you actually believe the non-mobile arm will somehow magically start being mobile because the OTHER arm is? First hand experience speaking here, it does NOT work that way, seriously, it doesn't do that. You will aim at something to the side, fire, and watch your round go STRAIGHT ahead because that arm has no actuator to move it to the side...do you even drive Clan Mechs?

It DOES actually work that way, I do it all the time. That is also how IS mechs with AC20 in the arm gets free aiming, like the Victor and Enforcer 4P. For some strange reason it doesn't work for the Yen lo Wang, but it does for the CN9-AH.

[IraqiWalker]

Sjorpha, on 14 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

It DOES actually work that way, I do it all the time. That is also how IS mechs with AC20 in the arm gets free aiming, like the Victor and Enforcer 4P. For some strange reason it doesn't work for the Yen lo Wang, but it does for the CN9-AH.

No, it really doesn't for AH. I use the AH. I just jumped into the Training grounds to double check it. The AH arms don't move sideways. Neither do the Yen Lo's.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 July 2015 - 04:57 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

You DO realize that the Gauss arm won't actually aim where the target reticle is, right? Or do you actually believe the non-mobile arm will somehow magically start being mobile because the OTHER arm is? First hand experience speaking here, it does NOT work that way, seriously, it doesn't do that. You will aim at something to the side, fire, and watch your round go STRAIGHT ahead because that arm has no actuator to move it to the side...do you even drive Clan Mechs?

Maybe learn some manners, and some composure before you decide to fly off the handle and attempt to insult people?

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

And I hate to tell you this but I'll take my King Crab with dual Gauss over my Dire with dual Gauss any day of the week, I can actually twist with my KC and spread damage out, no way to do that with the Dire, and my KC moves faster, twists more and faster, and is just a better platform all around, despite the Dire being able to carry more sheer firepower. Again, do you even drive Clan Mechs?

I hate to tell you this, but people who do well in Locusts but poorly in Firestarters don't turn locusts into better mechs through magic powers of wishful thinking.


The Dire Wolf is king of firepower, it is the King of Gauss Vomit and the King Crab is at best a lesser imitation.


Your results in the solo pug queue are irrelevant.