460 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

That video showed the reticle moving slightly but the shots went straight ahead, and that's been my own experience with it, which is why I don't bother with it. I've never seen Dire's aiming their arms when ballistics are in one or both to the sides, up and down, nothing else.

for whatever reason Afterburner wont do video on MWO for me anymore. So all you get are stills, but they should tell the story
With DWF-A RA

you can see the LA gauss shot clearly crossing the RT one in this shot

and the hit registering, with after trail still visible

Yes, the LA mounted Gauss and UAC20 followed the RA lower arm equipped reticle.
Mind you, the range is not great, but it's there. Looks a lot more impressive in zoom, than with normal mag level.

Good enough? No, torso mounted weapons of course, will still fire straight forward. If, like a schmuck, you got armlock on, straight forward. But if you have the arms unlocked, it will follow a limited degree of arm reflex.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I think we should form a judge/jury within this thread and we can use our high and mighty forum powers to resolve this issue once and for all. xD

As has been stated by numerous fair minded players:

If you want to rebalance the clan gauss you first have to nerf the high mounted quirked out IS mechs like the Grid Iron and Jaegar to keep parity. Yes, many of you may never see a dedicated 12 man all rolling tricked out Jaegars but many units can afford to roll nothing but these top tier mechs on certain hot maps in CW.

Be fair and rebalance the whole picture rather than just the weapon system.

That said, this games balance has FAAAAR bigger issues than clan vs IS gauss rifles which tend to be niche weapons anyways.

Edited by Blueduck, 14 July 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

*edit* can see the video now..

Ok, I can see you can aim up and down, but there's no lateral movement at all for the Gauss, which is what I was talking about. Same as the Jager, no lateral movement, same as my Yen and AH. My King, I got some swing there, and that matters a hell of a lot, since I can face away and still put 2 rounds on target.

Seriously, are you still on about this?









This is the part where you quit, because you are completely wrong.

I mean "do you even play clan mechs?".

Edited by Ultimatum X, 14 July 2015 - 08:07 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

WM Quicksilver, on 14 July 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

By straight ahead you mean followed the arm reticle or torso, because those shots definitely followed the arm reticle?

I mean it fired directly ahead while being moved on the vertical axis, it wasn't being aimed left/right.

Bishop, ok, that shows it clearly, thank you. And that is a rather odd bug, still wouldn't bother with it since it does remove 1 Gauss from having any vertical outside the limited torso movement for a rather limited horizontal movement with 1 Gauss. As to the arm lock thing, I've never understood why people would want that, rather defeats the entire point of arm mounted weapons with lateral movement doesn't it? But hey, some people think Clan Gauss needs to be nerfed somehow, what can ya do?

Ultimatum, your first video only showed vertical movement, which all Dire arms give anyway, not horizontal movement, and THAT is what I was talking about. Even with it working on the Dire as Bishop showed, it's not enough to be worthwhile, you gimp 1 Gauss to give another some slight lateral movement. Your own video shows that all too clearly, oh boy, look at that lateral movement! Of course that's a Warhawk, so you really don't get an option anyway, unlike the Dire, which gimps itself if you use that same trick.

You guys are totally overlooking how important hardpoint placement is, which is funny since other times you guys harp on it, selective fact usage is a bad way to argue your point, ya know?

That's one of the reasons I prefer my King over my Dire, I can shoot targets I'm NOT facing with my Gauss, both of them, Dire's can't do that, they need face time my King doesn't, it's an advantage, you can deny it all you want, but it's true none the less. It's one of those hardpoint location things, they really ARE very important ingame, you all know it, so why do you keep denying it or ignoring it here? Clan Mechs are gimped by using Gauss, they lose that lateral arm movement, and it's NOT a little thing, it's a big thing. Trying to use that slight lateral movement by using 1 arm pod that only allows 1 Gauss to be arm mounted, really? That's gimping the Mech purposefully, you know it. And you guys have harped on how important hardpoint locations are in other threads, but HERE you blow it off like it's not important? Ignoring or denying facts that aren't helpful to your argument is bs, you guys have pointed that out to how many people in other threads as well? And you are doing it here?

That's a sign you don't actually HAVE a well reasoned argument isn't it? When you LIE to support your side?

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

I mean it fired directly ahead while being moved on the vertical axis, it wasn't being aimed left/right.

Bishop, ok, that shows it clearly, thank you. And that is a rather odd bug, still wouldn't bother with it since it does remove 1 Gauss from having any vertical outside the limited torso movement for a rather limited horizontal movement with 1 Gauss. As to the arm lock thing, I've never understood why people would want that, rather defeats the entire point of arm mounted weapons with lateral movement doesn't it? But hey, some people think Clan Gauss needs to be nerfed somehow, what can ya do?

Ultimatum, your first video only showed vertical movement, which all Dire arms give anyway, not horizontal movement, and THAT is what I was talking about. Even with it working on the Dire as Bishop showed, it's not enough to be worthwhile, you gimp 1 Gauss to give another some slight lateral movement. Your own video shows that all too clearly, oh boy, look at that lateral movement! Of course that's a Warhawk, so you really don't get an option anyway, unlike the Dire, which gimps itself if you use that same trick.

You guys are totally overlooking how important hardpoint placement is, which is funny since other times you guys harp on it, selective fact usage is a bad way to argue your point, ya know?

That's one of the reasons I prefer my King over my Dire, I can shoot targets I'm NOT facing with my Gauss, both of them, Dire's can't do that, they need face time my King doesn't, it's an advantage, you can deny it all you want, but it's true none the less. It's one of those hardpoint location things, they really ARE very important ingame, you all know it, so why do you keep denying it or ignoring it here? Clan Mechs are gimped by using Gauss, they lose that lateral arm movement, and it's NOT a little thing, it's a big thing. Trying to use that slight lateral movement by using 1 arm pod that only allows 1 Gauss to be arm mounted, really? That's gimping the Mech purposefully, you know it. And you guys have harped on how important hardpoint locations are in other threads, but HERE you blow it off like it's not important? Ignoring or denying facts that aren't helpful to your argument is bs, you guys have pointed that out to how many people in other threads as well? And you are doing it here?

That's a sign you don't actually HAVE a well reasoned argument isn't it? When you LIE to support your side?

Yup. KGC does have the superior arm reflex. Heck it has superior mobility, period.

Personally, I find the KGC to need it and then some. It loses a side easier than a Stalker. Good for the to be able to sideshot those Gauss. In most matches though, the DWF is slinging Gauss, and either Dual ERPPC or laser vomit. 50 PP-FLD. Or some just have crazy alphas. That alpha, plus clan XL? Sorry, but unless you are facing bad competition, it'll eat the Krab just about every time still.

*shrugs*

Which seems irrelevant, since the point of weapons balance is the need to be balanced regardless of the chassis they are slapped into. So all this waxing eloquent about individual chassis is still pretty moot. Blueduck can't quite figure out that the quirks are the icing, and thus the last part of the puzzle, but I would have hoped you would understand that from basic balance tenants, the weapons need to be balanced. Is there like...1 whole IS mech that needs a quirk reset in regards to this? Yes. As I have been saying for over 6 months. The fact it's a slow, brittle mech with pretty bad hitboxes and laughable armor, notwithstanding. But that one mech is not argument enough to change the fact that the weapon itself, is out of balance.

I honestly don't give a crap if it's Clans or IS. I do give a crap about game balance.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2015 - 09:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

You guys are totally overlooking how important hardpoint placement is, which is funny since other times you guys harp on it, selective fact usage is a bad way to argue your point, ya know?

That's because you overestimate how useful having lateral movement is. Would it be nice for the Dire considering its limited twist range? Yes, considering you can load all the weapons in the arms. Is it necessary considering how dominant the Whale is in coordinated teams? No, not at all. The ability to abuse a Clan XL and have the massive firepower of Gauss/Laser vomit which equates to having the firepower of a Stormcrow and Timber Wolf all rolled into one, is much more valuable than the ability to do better snapshots with Gauss.

Keep in mind some of the best mechs in the game have typically had no lateral movement or at least it hasn't been a significant factor in its usefulness, firepower and some piece of equipment (ECM or JJs) has been the major factor, not actuators.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 14 July 2015 - 09:57 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

...
That's one of the reasons I prefer my King over my Dire, I can shoot targets I'm NOT facing with my Gauss, both of them, Dire's can't do that, they need face time my King doesn't, it's an advantage, you can deny it all you want, but it's true none the less....

Are you talking about lateral arm movement on KGC? It doesn't have lower arm actuators so no lateral/side to side arm movement.

[Sjorpha]

Blueduck, on 14 July 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

If you want to rebalance the clan gauss you first have to nerf the high mounted quirked out IS mechs like the Grid Iron and Jaegar to keep parity. Yes, many of you may never see a dedicated 12 man all rolling tricked out Jaegars but many units can afford to roll nothing but these top tier mechs on certain hot maps in CW.

The Jager is not a top tier mech in the current meta, nor is it significantly quirked out or expensive to field.

The EBJ is the strongest current dual gauss heavy by far, it's so much better than the Jager it's not even funny.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 July 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

That video showed the reticle moving slightly but the shots went straight ahead, and that's been my own experience with it, which is why I don't bother with it. I've never seen Dire's aiming their arms when ballistics are in one or both to the sides, up and down, nothing else.

Ill add my voice to the others saying that you are definitely wrong here. A Dire can laterally aim up to 1 ballistic in the left arm, so long as the A right arm is used, the LAA is selected and no PPCs are mounted there. If you wanna test it, build a WUBWOLF PLUS, play with armlock off and notice how 100% of your weapons hit the arm reticule spot.

[Lugh]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

The Jager is not a top tier mech in the current meta, nor is it significantly quirked out or expensive to field.

The EBJ is the strongest current dual gauss heavy by far, it's so much better than the Jager it's not even funny.

Yes because hitting that CT is SOOOOOOO hard my grandma after her stroke in her wheelchair could do it....

[Sjorpha]

Lugh, on 15 July 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Yes because hitting that CT is SOOOOOOO hard my grandma after her stroke in her wheelchair could do it....

The EBJ is currently a tier 1 competitive mech, and the Jager is not. Despite the big CT, It's just better.

That is actually my cat on the ironing board btw

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 July 2015 - 04:56 AM.

[Lugh]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

The EBJ is currently a tier 1 competitive mech, and the Jager is not. Despite the big CT, It's just better.

That is actually my cat on the ironing board btw

So because the Jaeger has fallen to tier 2 because of hardpoint troubles, somehow that makes it not competitive? I see people still feel the need to try to use mechs in ways that they weren't designed to be used.

Maybe if more people learned to side poke rather than hill hump with it, it wouldn't be tier 2...

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 14 July 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Are you talking about lateral arm movement on KGC? It doesn't have lower arm actuators so no lateral/side to side arm movement.

been awhile since I built mine...forgot,. NONE came with Gauss stock, in my head I was thinking the 000B had..... yup. All ac20, means no LAs. One more nail in the coffin of that argument.

Lugh, on 15 July 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

So because the Jaeger has fallen to tier 2 because of hardpoint troubles, somehow that makes it not competitive? I see people still feel the need to try to use mechs in ways that they weren't designed to be used.

Maybe if more people learned to side poke rather than hill hump with it, it wouldn't be tier 2...

Tier 2 because the EBJ does what it does without barndoor STs, a clan immortal XL and 89 kph speed. Heck, you can even side bias it for peeking. Or skip the dual gauss entirely and pack Gauss + PPC/ERLL/LPL on the high torso mounts, which are even higher than on the Jager.

Shrug.

Clans do have some weaksauce mechs, no doubt, but their good ones are still better than the IS; even with Quirks, in almost all cases.

Also, where the weapons ARE crazy quirked, it's to compensate for other glaring weaknesses in the mech, usually in hitbox and hardpoint location. Yet another reason the quirk argument holds little water in the basics of balance.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 July 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Lugh, on 15 July 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

So because the Jaeger has fallen to tier 2 because of hardpoint troubles, somehow that makes it not competitive? I see people still feel the need to try to use mechs in ways that they weren't designed to be used.

Maybe if more people learned to side poke rather than hill hump with it, it wouldn't be tier 2...

Hardpoint troubles? The Jager has no hardpoint troubles, it has superb hardpoints, that has nothing to do with it.

Side peeking? What advantage is there to side peeking with dual gauss on a Jager? That's just another plus for the EBJ who actually CAN side peek with both gauss rifles.

I'm not saying it's a very bad mech, in fact it's one of my favourite mechs. And the dual gauss build is good, it's just not top tier meta or the best dual gauss heavy like that other poster claimed.

My only point really is that the Ebon Jaguar is now the best dual gauss heavy in the game, and it has changed the tables on dual gauss superiority to the clan side so that clan now has the best dual gauss platforms in both heavy and assault class. The gaussvom build is of course even stronger.

You seem to be trying a "moving the goalpost" type argument here, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

My only point is that EBJ>Jager for dual gauss, are you disputing that or not?

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 July 2015 - 05:16 AM.

[Tahribator]

This is a massive balance problem in my opinion. Since the C-Gauss is so good with little drawback people tend to go for Gauss+ERML builds which is stupidly effective considering ERML is also another weapon with little drawbacks. No wonder the Clan meta is dominated with the Gauss, you're just stupid not to take it if all you care about is winning. This also has the unwanted side effect of shifting the overall meta towards longer ranged builds, which forces the IS side to stick with ridiculously quirked 'Mechs (FS, TDR, STK) while hurting brawlers even more.

C-Gauss needs a disadvantage for being a 3 tons lighter IS Gauss and ERML needs a solid disadvantage for being a 1-ton LL.

[Lugh]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 July 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

been awhile since I built mine...forgot,. NONE came with Gauss stock, in my head I was thinking the 000B had..... yup. All ac20, means no LAs. One more nail in the coffin of that argument.


Tier 2 because the EBJ does what it does without barndoor STs, a clan immortal XL and 89 kph speed. Heck, you can even side bias it for peeking. Or skip the dual gauss entirely and pack Gauss + PPC/ERLL/LPL on the high torso mounts, which are even higher than on the Jager.

Shrug.

Clans do have some weaksauce mechs, no doubt, but their good ones are still better than the IS; even with Quirks, in almost all cases.

Also, where the weapons ARE crazy quirked, it's to compensate for other glaring weaknesses in the mech, usually in hitbox and hardpoint location. Yet another reason the quirk argument holds little water in the basics of balance.

Weird then how the overquirked Tbolt is fricking everywhere.

[Widowmaker1981]

Tahribator, on 15 July 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

This is a massive balance problem in my opinion. Since the C-Gauss is so good with little drawback people tend to go for Gauss+ERML builds which is stupidly effective considering ERML is also another weapon with little drawbacks. No wonder the Clan meta is dominated with the Gauss, you're just stupid not to take it if all you care about is winning. This also has the unwanted side effect of shifting the overall meta towards longer ranged builds, which forces the IS side to stick with ridiculously quirked 'Mechs (FS, TDR, STK) while hurting brawlers even more.

C-Gauss needs a disadvantage for being a 3 tons lighter IS Gauss and ERML needs a solid disadvantage for being a 1-ton LL.

Once IICs are out i completely agree, but for now i still maintain that the locked up mechlab makes up for these tonnage savings - If you make a twin gauss timby for example you have 5 locked DHS you dont need, and that entirely cancels the weight saving from the Gauss being lighter, and then you have the issues of 3 locked ES/FF crits per ST, and no space in the legs or head, forcing you to hang ammo in the arms.

[Dimento Graven]

Lugh, on 15 July 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

Weird then how the overquirked Tbolt is fricking everywhere.

I don't play one. I hate all spam-a-lot builds, be they laser or AC, so I don't use them.

I prefer dual gauss builds, and have even built the 4 gauss, Gauss-Zilla Direwolf for funzies.

I have NOT even touched/looked at my EBJ yet (though to support PGI's continued development I DID purchase the package), and you'll note that in not one of my previous posts on this thread did I mention it BECAUSE I had zero experience with it in game, though maybe I should from what I'm reading here:

Dual gauss
Clan XL
89kph!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! (really? for true? fastest dual gauss mech I've ever fielded was, at best ~70kph)
Target profile is better than KGC, or jaeger.
Can sport ERML's, making it a harder hitting 'mech than the jaeger...
Can be loaded up with equivalent amount of gauss ammo as the jaeger...

I'm seeing NOTHING but cake here.

Ok you guys have convinced me, I'm seriously going to look into my EBJ as my new dual gauss platforms for pug matches!

[Necromantion]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

The EBJ is the strongest current dual gauss heavy by far, it's so much better than the Jager it's not even funny.

Maybe due to mobility but the hardpoints suck having one in the arm and one in the torso. Can result in having to fire just one rather than both guns when looking over/around objects

[Dimento Graven]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 July 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

Once IICs are out i completely agree, but for now i still maintain that the locked up mechlab makes up for these tonnage savings - If you make a twin gauss timby for example you have 5 locked DHS you dont need, and that entirely cancels the weight saving from the Gauss being lighter, and then you have the issues of 3 locked ES/FF crits per ST, and no space in the legs or head, forcing you to hang ammo in the arms.

Being forced to place gauss ammo in the arms isn't that much of a disadvantage, in fact any proper IS build crit pads the arms with gauss ammo to reduce the chance of the gauss getting crit'd out early on.

Gauss ammo doesn't explode. All that happens if you lose an arm is you lose any potentially unused gauss ammo, not much else, and considering that most 'good' pilots aren't specifically aiming at clan arms, but primarily target CT's and legs (and heads depending on their penchant for aiming), clan arms are 'relatively' safe...