945 replies to this topic

[Marcus Tanner]

I don't understand why it hasn't just been electronic countermeasures this whole time. Let it kill Artemis, narc, beagle, Doritos, maybe tag. Delay target data acquisition. No other effect needed on mechs that don't mount special stuff.
Mechs are currently in passive radar mode. The targeting reticule is just your FCS recognizing a shape (the way your smartphone has facial recognition software).
Small mechs should be good enough even when there's no ECM nearby. If base "radar" range went from 800m to 8x tonnage then your light sniper mechs will be fine sans ECM.
This half-range nonsense isn't enough to bring me back.

[Tarzilman]

I like it. Nerf it down to 75m. Seems to be the middle of both or your thoughts.

[bad arcade kitty]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

Still nobody has explained to me why making LRMs Line of Sight only on either all mechs or just ECM mechs when TAG/NARC aren't in play is unfair. Either one of these suggestions is fine with me. It's not that I cannot take cover from LRMs, it's that it seems very unbalanced to me to let an enemy team fire consistently on mechs without exposing themselves to return fire.

the indirect fire is the only lrm advantage over lasers/ppc/ballistic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

InspectorG, on 15 July 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

A. Give Lights more Recon: larger sensor range, faster + better target info. Should affect Heat Vison and Night Vision similar to zoom on a TC.

B. SHRINK Medium/heavy/Assault's SENSOR RANGE in ascending order. Medium = 500m, Heavy = 450m, Assault = 400m
ALL BUT SELECT FEW MEDIUMS get LESS sensor info.
FOSTERS COMMUNICATION/SHOT CALLING: VOIP FOR A REASON

C. ECM, covers @90m DIAMETER, COUNTERS INDIRECT LOCKS- Direct locks act as normal, Negates NARC/Probes

D. Buff BAP/AP PROPORTIONAL to weight class of mech using it.

E. Due to ECM cutting indirect locks, LRM users should use TAG and stay CLOSE ENOUGH for their weight class's sensor range...YES! NO MORE LRM FROM THE BACK - YOU NOW GET TO FIGHT GLORIOUS FIGHT COMRADE!!!
Dedicated scout can still scout but will have to be more 'dedicated'. TAG would thus be used like spotting artillery and provide bonus for indirect LRM use. Bigger reward for spotting.

F. TAG range depends on weight class. 700m for Lights, 600m for Medium, 500m for Heavy/Assault.

G. Buff LRM if needed due to more demanding criteria.


Something like this.

You get:
Roles for Lights
Demand for more teamwork
Perhaps better balance for indirect fire/LRM/ECM
Meta less heavy on strict damage done.

Perfect, where do I sign up?

[Better Call Saul]

This is a horrible idea, there are many counters to ECM:
BAP/TAG/NARC and UAV.

Why do we need to make it easier for LRM and Streaks? Extend the range of TAG or BAP if LRM users are having a hard time of getting locks in the SOLO queue.

Further to this consider Alpine and Caustic Valley, 2 maps with NIL cover from LRM.

Group Que players have no excuse about getting LRM locks, they have teammates that should scout and equipe NARC/UAV for them. i.e. work as a team to leverage your loadout.

INCREASE THE BONUSES FOR TAG/NARC/UAV and scouting. Give people more incentive for playing the ROLE of the scout.

QUIRKING LIGHT mechs to do more damage just encourages selfish game play i.e. for scouts to increase damage and kills, not to perform scouting.

[InspectorG]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Perfect, where do I sign up?

Dunno? Copy&Paste+spread the word to Tina?

[El Bandito]

Tina Benoit, on 15 July 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Hello MechWarriors,

Please share your feedback on this thread regarding Paul's discussion on ECM changes.

JUST DO IT!

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Rick Rollington, on 15 July 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

I could almost agree with you, if ECM didn't stop LoS locks.
The problem though, is that it does, and that Direct Fire LRMs are terrible. Compare an ALRM10 with one ton of ammo, to a PPC. The PPC does near instant damage to the target, on the location of your choosing, and has no ammo requirement. The LRM takes anywhere up to 5 secs to get to the target, it spreads it's damage all over the place, and if the target has ECM, then you need to hold a Laser Pointer on the Target for at least 1.5 secs for a lock to occur. And if the target has any skill whatsoever, they will break lock, evade, and watch as the missiles fly harmlessly past them. The ONLY thing LRMs have going for them at the moment is their indirect fire ability.
Which ECM completely negates without any active input from the user. They don't have to engage it when locked. They don't have to do anything to bypass the lock. It's just ON.

Which is why it is overpowered for a 1.5 ton piece of gear. It completely negates an entire weapon system for no effort on the users part.

Imagine if there was a 1.5 ton equipment that prevented from hitting the target, unless you used a 1.5 ton piece of Counter equipment, a 4 ton Missile Weapon, or a 1 Ton Laser Pointer for 1.5 secs before being allowed to fire your weapons.

Or a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that prevented Gauss from doing any damage unless you were within 180m.

Or a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that prevented Autocannons from landing more than 1 shot every 4 secs.

That is what ECM does to LRMs.

Edit: Your next post is much more descriptive, and I do agree with that one.

Oh I agree. I'm saying that ECM should not prevent LoS locks. If we end up going the way where LRMs need a TAG for all mechs without LoS, then LRMs will definitely need an accuracy and or damage buff, no question. If we go the 'just need LoS for ECM mechs' route, then I'm all in favor of making ECM a personal defense only item.

[InspectorG]

Better Call Saul, on 15 July 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

.

Why do we need to make it easier for LRM and Streaks?

It wont be if Mediums/Heavies/Assaults have their sensor range cut. ECM should only null indirect locks. LRM boats should use TAG.
Streakboats are really only a thing in CW as far as i know.

[Tesunie]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

AMS as it is cannot defend against high density volleys of LRMs from multiple mechs. Unless everybody on the opposing team brings AMS, an LRM dense team can throw all their weight onto a single mech that may only have LOS on one or two of the targets he's being attacked by.

Just like with most things in game, if you are alone it's going to be a rough time anyway. A single AMS (for 0.5 tons and maybe 1 ton of ammo typically) should get overwhelmed by 20+ tons of LRM (launchers alone) being thrown at you. However, as a team (reminder, this is a team based game) and staying near your team will provide you with much more coverage. Enough that several "LRM boats" could be rendered effectively useless by your teams AMS.

Right now, many people scoff at taking AMS, because why take that when ECM does it all, and then some. A single ECM (even with these reduced ranges) can still "blanket" a large portion of a team from LRMs, still making AMS a "useless" function.
Either that, or they scoff at AMS because "putting them on my mech doesn't enough enough (by myself)".


My issue with ECM isn't it's cloaking affects (at least not outright), but it's cloaking affects not only applying to units that I can clearly see for long periods of time, combined with when I can get a lock (via TAG, UAV or just being in that tiny sweet spot) and their still under the affects of ECM, then I also get an additional penalty of much slower lock on times.


PS: You are talking to someone who doesn't boat LRMs. I typically take some builds that mix LRMs with other weapons. All the linked builds here are builds I actively use, and enjoy. They work very well, despite not boating a single type of weapon. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

[InspectorG]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

Still nobody has explained to me why making LRMs Line of Sight only on either all mechs or just ECM mechs when TAG/NARC aren't in play is unfair. Either one of these suggestions is fine with me. It's not that I cannot take cover from LRMs, it's that it seems very unbalanced to me to let an enemy team fire consistently on mechs without exposing themselves to return fire.

Unfair but also stupid. Direct damage rules MWO and boats sitting in the back lobbing LRMs into terrain are essentially subtracting HP from their team. Also all that 'safety' range increases flight time and gives opponents more time to react.

I say have ECM cut indirect locks.

And if a team uses a designated spotter...THEN they should be rewarded with better LRM use. Spotter will need to use TAG and risks himself. If by chance too OP, cut TAG range to 500m.

Wanna LRM boat? Sure, but be a man and do it up near the fight with a direct lock or by using comms to get a nice indirect lock with a teammate instead of begging for locks like a bum and getting mad when no one takes you seriously. Should un-noobtube the LRMs situation.

[Ace Selin]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Cool I guess I will just bring 3 Hellbringers and a Shadow Cat to CW now.

Oh wait I'm in the IS. Damn...

Yep Inner Sphere needs some good ECM mechs now, especially heavy.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

bad arcade kitty, on 15 July 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

the indirect fire is the only lrm advantage over lasers/ppc/ballistic

So then make it to where only ECM mechs are immune to indirect locks; LRMs will still have the opportunity to fire on plenty of mechs indirectly. Additionally being able to fire indirectly is a HUGE advantage if there aren't any countermeasures. without some sort of interference LRMS will become way more effective than lasers/ppc/ballistic. An entire team being able to fire without line of sight is a huge force multiplier.

[InspectorG]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

So then make it to where only ECM mechs are immune to indirect locks; LRMs will still have the opportunity to fire on plenty of mechs indirectly. Additionally being able to fire indirectly is a HUGE advantage if there aren't any countermeasures. without some sort of interference LRMS will become way more effective than lasers/ppc/ballistic. An entire team being able to fire without line of sight is a huge force multiplier.

Hence ICBM in real life.

[bad arcade kitty]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

So then make it to where only ECM mechs are immune to indirect locks; LRMs will still have the opportunity to fire on plenty of mechs indirectly. Additionally being able to fire indirectly is a HUGE advantage if there aren't any countermeasures. without some sort of interference LRMS will become way more effective than lasers/ppc/ballistic. An entire team being able to fire without line of sight is a huge force multiplier.

yeah, it's reasonable

[El Bandito]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

So then make it to where only ECM mechs are immune to indirect locks; LRMs will still have the opportunity to fire on plenty of mechs indirectly. Additionally being able to fire indirectly is a HUGE advantage if there aren't any countermeasures. without some sort of interference LRMS will become way more effective than lasers/ppc/ballistic. An entire team being able to fire without line of sight is a huge force multiplier.

That can be easily remedied by an entire team bringing AMS. At least that sounds more realistic than an entire team of LRM boats.

Those who scoff at AMS have lost their rights to whine about LRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2015 - 07:46 PM.

[topgun505]

Certainly understandable changes. I don't disagree with them.

The outcomes in the short come, however, will be fairly predictable.

As a result of the change more people will be bringing LRMs to the field for pug matches
This will result in larger amounts of the lesser experienced underhive being slaughtered.
Much LRM-QQ will be had.
More people will, in turn, start taking ECM mechs in pug que, if only to cover their own behinds.
As a result you will likely start seeing more Streak-Dogs and Streak-crows and rampant use of UAVs.
Much Streak-QQ will be had.

Meanwhile in the comp scene not much will change.

In all honesty, BAP, Streaks, and LRMs might need a pass afterwards in order to keep things balanced. But overall I think it will ... eventually even out for the best. The transition will probably be messy/noisy though.

[InspectorG]

Tina Benoit, on 15 July 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Hello MechWarriors,

Please share your feedback on this thread regarding Paul's discussion on ECM changes.

Needs to be adjusted within the larger totality.

Hope you guys have some idea like this.

[LordNothing]

i kinda think you need to take the bubble and the counter off of the current ecm module and keep the remaining stats. then you create a second module that is a few tons heavier, takes up an extra crit, but works about the same way as the current module (maybe with the bubble taken down to around 120m).

picking the more advanced ecm module means it will cost you some firepower. if you are in a light and just need a little bit of stealth for scouting, then you equip the lesser module. if you want to be a support mech that covers a formation, then you get the advanced module.

ecm can be used in many roles and i dont think a one size fits all ecm is the answer.

[Maxx Blue]

I'm fine with 90m...honestly, I'm fine with 60m. I'm pretty sure that I will still equip ECM on ANY mech that can mount it because it makes missile locks pretty much impossible without TAG or NARC.

I would probably even be OK with ECM not preventing locks, and instead just increasing lock time and increasing missile spread instead of stopping it all together. That way Null Sig and Angel ECM can have a reason to exist. If all it did was increase lock time and/or missile spread, then I might actually have to consider whether it was worth it to carry or not. As long as it still has the same 'powers' that it does now, I will still probably take ECM on every mech I can, even if the radius is only one meter.