945 replies to this topic

[Volkodav]

CapperDeluxe, on 15 July 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why not just take out the ability to shield friendlies from GECM, then add Angel ECM as separate equipment? I just don't get it.

+
and give Angel ECM shield for teammates, but not yourself.

True. This will give the new equipment, and for players to new spend C-Bills and GXP. Variety. Different tactics to use.

Its need for role warfare/

Edited by Volkodav, 15 July 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[Naduk]

This is great, looking forward to this balance wave

[Black Ivan]

Tastian, on 15 July 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

ECM needs more then a range decrease. The Streak/LRM/ECM/BAP/C3/Artemis/TAG/UAV/target information relationship needs to be overhauled.

Excatly this. The ECM changes will otherwise only result in a new LRMgeddon we had sometime ago.

Revert ECM to TT abilities and rework missile interaction.

The upcoming change is a very halfbacked solution.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

So the compromising point seems to be this. ECM should have the following effects:

-ECM shields only the mech it is equipped to.

-There is approximately a 2 second delay before your targeting system places the hollow dorito on an ECM shielded mech. This resets every time your lock is lost on the ECM shielded mech.

-Once the hollow dorito appears, you can target the ECM shielded mech like a normal mech.

-ECM shielded mechs are protected from target sharing, meaning when you target an ECM shielded mech you can't relay info or locks to your teammates.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 July 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Pjwned]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

I'm sorry dude, but you're just dead wrong.

1/1.5 tons is perfectly reasonable to stop indirect missile fire. I understand that it's not fair for it to stop LRM boats that have line of sight, but it's perfectly reasonable for it to stop the LRM boats that don't have line of sight.

It's not reasonable because it makes a 1.5 ton piece of equipment too good, and if that function exists anywhere it needs to be on a separate piece of equipment (or upgrade) that's more costly. It can have a lesser effect maybe, such as making a target harder (but still possible) to lock on, but preventing locks is stupid and relying on it means relying on a crutch.

Quote

You can take cheap shots and blab on about how I'm a terrible player who has no idea what he's doing, but at the end of the day, the fact is I'm not the guy who's standing out in the open and using ECM to negate 1/3 of the weapons in this game. I am the guy using cover intelligently and deploying the only countermeasure I have available to stop enemy mechs from shooting at me without exposing themselves to return fire.

Not really a cheap shot when you plainly say that speed doesn't save you from LRMs, which is patently untrue.

Edited by Pjwned, 15 July 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[Sereglach]

This is a start. I apologize if it's already been said (can't believe this thread is 13 pages already at the time I'm typing this), but here's my opinion on it:


Personally I'd like to see ECM Block TIG (Target Info Gathering) and slow lock times (easily doubling lock-on times), rather than what it does now. If it did that, then the larger bubble range would probably be fine. It'd also function as an excellent Information Warfare tactic rather than the blanket "magic bubble" that is has, now. Slowing lock-on times and preventing people from knowing what, exactly, they're shooting at are pretty big reasons to carry an ECM without completely removing the ability to lock targets.

After that, you can make BAP function like a mobile UAV, providing target lock capabilities (but again, no TIG) to enemies outside LOS and/or that are shut down, within a modestly-short-range-bubble as well (TT I believe was only 120m). That would be a function far more in line with lore, than what we have now. ECM could still counter this effet, just as it does in TT rules, rather than the bass ackwards implementation we have of EW countering that we have now.

Make the two systems function in this way and you'd actually have Raven 3L's (for example) running around with ECM and BAP, serving their purpose as they're supposed to in lore, as an Information Warfare and Electronic Warfare powerhouse.

Not only that, but it'd make BOTH systems highly desirable, and not just one always being desired for it's magic bubble and the other only when you "must" (LRM's/Streaks) counter said bubble.

*EDIT: Stastically speaking you could also make the benefits of Artemis, BAP, TAG and NARC lock on speeds directly equal to the ECM lock-on decrease . . . thereby giving them all a cancelling effect for a soft-counter aspect. This would also make them function more in line with lore then what we have now, and provide a greater EW/IW facet to the game.*

----------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, Mr. Inouye, since you're actively addressing the community with some balancing updates, is there any chance we'll get a word on Flamers soon, please? Last word in February was that you were having the visual effects overhauled before final reengineering was completed. ANY info on this would be greatly appreciated, please.

Edited by Sereglach, 15 July 2015 - 10:14 PM.

[Pjwned]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

So the compromising point seems to be this. ECM should have the following effects:

-ECM shields only the mech it is equipped to.

-There is approximately a 2 second delay before your targeting system places the hollow dorito on an ECM shielded mech. This resets every time the ECM shielded mech goes into cover.

-Once the hollow dorito appears, you can target the ECM shielded mech like a normal mech.

-ECM shielded mechs are protected from target sharing, meaning when you target an ECM shielded mech you can't relay info or locks to your teammates.

Sounds decent I suppose, but that last point is stupid because if you're not being jammed by ECM then what would prevent you from sharing target info just because an enemy mech is in an ECM bubble?

[Tesunie]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

-There is approximately a 2 second delay before your targeting system places the hollow dorito on an ECM shielded mech. This resets every time the ECM shielded mech goes into cover.

More or less. But the delay could be any kind of number. There may need to be a cool down for that though, as otherwise ECM replaces Radar Deprivation. (Which also needs to see some work in my opinion. Radar Dep should reduce target decay, in a similar fashion as Advanced Target Decay increases decay. The two, when equipped, should counter each other. Right now, it doesn't do that, and Radar Dep reduces decay far more than Adv decay increases it, even when used as counters to each other.)

As it is, currently Radar Dep can make little wires block locks, even though the mech is still clearly visible. Mix with ECM, and I've seen this mess up locks without any cover involved (probably a bug, but still). Of course, with ECM in it's current implementation...

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Pjwned, on 15 July 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

It's not reasonable because it makes a 1.5 ton piece of equipment too good, and if that function exists anywhere it needs to be on a separate piece of equipment (or upgrade) that's more costly. It can have a lesser effect maybe, such as making a target harder (but still possible) to lock on, but preventing locks is stupid and relying on it means relying on a crutch.



Not really a cheap shot when you plainly say that speed doesn't save you from LRMs, which is patently untrue.

Lol, I don't think you are going to get very far trying to outrun LRMS in a Kitfox.

It isn't a crutch because I don't rely on it to win, I bring it on certain mechs because it's a pragmatic choice.

Lastly if you'll look above, the more intelligent and level headed opponent of ECM and I have reached a fair and balanced compromise.

Tesunie, on 15 July 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

More or less. But the delay could be any kind of number. There may need to be a cool down for that though, as otherwise ECM replaces Radar Deprivation. (Which also needs to see some work in my opinion. Radar Dep should reduce target decay, in a similar fashion as Advanced Target Decay increases decay. The two, when equipped, should counter each other. Right now, it doesn't do that, and Radar Dep reduces decay far more than Adv decay increases it, even when used as counters to each other.)

As it is, currently Radar Dep can make little wires block locks, even though the mech is still clearly visible. Mix with ECM, and I've seen this mess up locks without any cover involved (probably a bug, but still). Of course, with ECM in it's current implementation...

Indeed perhaps ECM mechs should be subject to normal targeting decay, but once the lock is lost, the 2 second delay once again applies.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 July 2015 - 10:01 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Pjwned, on 15 July 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Sounds decent I suppose, but that last point is stupid because if you're not being jammed by ECM then what would prevent you from sharing target info just because an enemy mech is in an ECM bubble?

The last point is the most important one, and it's a game not real life, real life makes more sense granted, but it isn't balanced.

You could think of it as ECM actively interfering with all of the mechs on the battlefield, and part of that interference is preventing data about the mechs location from being sent to allies.

Alternatively, you can think of it as ECM necessitating that the LRM mechs have a line of sight in order to lock on. It's just simpler to negate target sharing than to require LOS coding in order for LRMs to lock onto an ECM mech.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 July 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[ASHTAR0N]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heres a suggestion to information warfare/fixing ECM
Give all mechs Seismic Sensor by default as a "Radar"

Almost all mechs equip the module seismic sensor. It has become the de facto Radar of Mechwarrior Online. (don't freak out. Think of this change as just Seismic Sensor with more integration into Role Warfare)
Summary of what changing seismic sensor to Radar will do for the game :

• Active/Passive Radar
  
• True to lore implementation of ECM. That doesn't break all missiles
  
• Visual/Missile Targeting is the ONLY mechanic of Information Warfare right now. This change will fix that
  
• True to lore implementation of whatever the hell radar tech you can think of
  
• Null Sig

And here is the how:



By actually having a Radar mechanic you are are able to implement features that are true to lore.
Meanwhile the Radar(seismic sensor) portion of the game is still kept separate from the Missile Lock/Visual Lock portion of the game. What this mean is:

#1 Just because you see mechs on your Radar(seismic sensor) doesn't mean you can lob LRMs at them. Just because you see them on Radar, doesn't mean you can have damage information on them. (A problem the developers sought to get rid of from the old game.)

#2 Lore ECM: Having a separate Radar and Missile targeting system means that ECM can have the Radar jamming portion of its function (invisible from Radar), without the missile targeting interference. I.E true to lore and does not break an entire 1/3 of the weapons.


#3 You can tune/adjust a mech's Radar capability without hindering its Missile/Visual Targeting ability. I.E if you lower the Missile Targeting range from 1000 you can no longer effectively use LRMS. Whereas if you lower the Radar radius there is no effect on viability of Missile weapons. Worried that giving light mechs 2x Visual/Missile Lock will wreck the game? Worry no more, giving light mechs 2x Radar range is fine and encouraged!

#4 Passive/Active Radar! Turn off your own Radar(Seismic Sensor), and other mechs will not see you on their Radar. This means mechs will still be able to sneak around, and have that stealth gameplay.



Heck, devs can add Null Sig if they wanted to if it no longer has functionality overlap with ECM. Miss your Sniper Raven? Slap that Null Sig onto a Rave, turn on Passive Radar and it works just like ECM does now without the broken umbrella.

These ideas sound really great, and much better than the existing system, I hope PGI reads this.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

ASHTAR0N, on 15 July 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

These ideas sound really great, and much better than the existing system, I hope PGI reads this.

I agree, but implementation of these suggestions requires a lot of complex coding, and some of the items on this list will be broken unless implemented at the same time.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 July 2015 - 10:14 PM.

[Felio]

Speaking of role warfare and Seismic Sensor, light 'mechs could be immune to it...

[Pjwned]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Lol, I don't think you are going to get very far trying to outrun LRMS in a Kitfox.

It isn't a crutch because I don't rely on it to win, I bring it on certain mechs because it's a pragmatic choice.

Lastly if you'll look above, the more intelligent and level headed opponent of ECM and I have reached a fair and balanced compromise.

a) Ironic that you use the Kitfox as an example when its ECM arm also has 3 AMS hardpoints.
b) I dodge LRMs just fine in mechs that go slower than that, including my own sniper mechs which go about 20% slower; I suggest gitting gud.
c) You rely on its target blocking feature to eliminate an otherwise large threat (at next to no cost) and don't want to see it go away because apparently you can't use other advantages like speed to deal with LRMs, so it is a crutch.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

The last point is the most important one, and it's a game not real life, real life makes more sense granted, but it isn't balanced.

You could think of it as ECM actively interfering with all of the mechs on the battlefield, and part of that interference is preventing data about the mechs location from being sent to allies.

Alternatively, you can think of it as ECM necessitating that the LRM mechs have a line of sight in order to lock on. It's just simpler to negate target sharing than to require LOS coding in order for LRMs to lock onto an ECM mech.

Ignoring what a stupid explanation that is, having a passive stealth bubble like that for such a small piece of equipment is unbalanced. It's not as bad if you have to get within range of an enemy to jam their equipment and prevent target sharing that way, but having a bubble that apparently affects the entire battlefield is asinine.

Edited by Pjwned, 15 July 2015 - 10:19 PM.

[Zfailboat]

So you are going to take ECM and make it so that the only use for it is people running snipers - okay no problem but first FIX THE MAPS.

Seriously caustic valley with no effective ecm. Alpine peaks with no effective ecm. Sounds like you just want to bring lrm spam into the game instead of laser spam.

I am 100% for this move AFTER you have fixed the damn maps.

[VXJaeger]

Well, this is a double-edged sword and can go both ways. I just hope that this doesn't lead into LRMpocalypse #6.
BAP-range should stay the same as it is now.

[STEF_]

ECM should not be able to transfer its "magical cover" to teamates.

ALso the null sign system, that costs 7 crtitical and 10 heat per turn, gives cover only for its mech.

So, the radius Paul wants to discuss, should be at least ZERO.

ECM was introduced to stop the lurmageddon? Rework the lrm system.
Stop using bandaid to cover bandaid, to cover bandaid, to cover bandaid....

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Pjwned, on 15 July 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

a) Ironic that you use the Kitfox as an example when its ECM arm also has 3 AMS hardpoints.
I dodge LRMs just fine in mechs that go slower than that, including my own sniper mechs which go about 20% slower; I suggest gitting gud.
c) You rely on its target blocking feature to eliminate an otherwise large threat (at next to no cost) and don't want to see it go away because apparently you can't use other advantages like speed to deal with LRMs, so it is a crutch.



Ignoring what a stupid explanation that is, having a passive stealth bubble like that for such a small piece of equipment is unbalanced. It's not as bad if you have to get within range of an enemy to jam their equipment and prevent target sharing that way, but having a bubble that apparently affects the entire battlefield is asinine.

Can't fit the AMS, too much ERPPC and Streak

No you don't run so fast that mechs that are holding LRM locks on you, miss with their LRMs, not if you are going 20% slower than a kitfox. Perhaps if you get out of their lock first, but not when they are holding a lock

Once again, not a crutch, in the current meta I don't need it so much as it'd be dumb not to take it. In a LRM heavy meta that would exist if ECM went away, I would need it. Also it doesn't have no cost, it requires me to pick from a limited selection of mechs; that's the real cost, not the 1.5/1 ton.

There is nothing OP about an ECM mech blocking target sharing. It can after all still be locked onto with a direct line of sight or a spotter with TAG.

Not only are you being thickheaded you are also being intentionally abrasive, please refrain from replying anymore unless you are going to have a mature conversation.

FYI: game mechanics are more important than how realistically equipment performs.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 15 July 2015 - 10:31 PM.

[thearticulategrunt]

About dang time. Matter of fact take it down to the 60 meter range. As a former Army officer who ran combat operations and has had to run numerous ECM devices keeping their ranges and coverages in mind while running patrols and convoys the ECM in game has always struck me as broken. Being able to see an entire enemy formation but being unable to scan or lock onto anyone because 1 or maybe 2 ECM units are in the mix has just seemed idiotic. Matter of fact, i know the programming would be hell, but if we want to treat ECM more realistically how about a decreasing range of efficiency. Something like inside 30 meters I can't scan or lock onto anything, 31-60 meters It drastically impairs and slows my abilities to scan and lock while at 61-90 it impairs me but not as much and anything past 90 is completely outside the bubble causing no affect on me at all. Just a thought.

Basic though/tldr, sounds good, shoot take it down to the 60 meters.

[Kirtanus]

Please implement good radar system first. Active/passive radars are really required for information warfare. Current ECM is not an issue and range nerf is not "epic change" to ecm gameplay/