945 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

Puresin, on 16 July 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

sorry but now this means that a light can sneak up on my assaults even more quickly cause now i won't get signal interruption til they are right on me.

stop doing stuff that makes it easier for the lights. cause honestly right now with the way things are going you might as well get rid of all the weight classes and just have lights.

firestarter with 6 med pulse that can alpha.......ever tried to put 6 lasers of any kind in a dire?

stop doing NEW stuff and look at your game and how you have skewed it for the lights and put it back to lights being just that. LIGHTS. mediums being MEDIUM
lights should only be able to do light work..... right now look at how the scores go. heavies score highest usually followed by a light.

and before people mouth off about pilot skill, I drive everything from light to assault and can put up match scores of over 1000 in just about every mech i own.

I honestly can say this ecm and other stuff is just more so you can put lights right to the top as usual.

I would probably believe you on the part that you think light mechs are that powerful if people actually used them more...

5 to 15% of the weight class in MM these past few weeks are Lights.
30 to 60% of the weight class in MM these past few weeks are heavies
20-30% of the weight class in MM these past few weeks are mediums or assaults.

Okay... normal MM and games are not a good Representative obviously, Community warfare would shed more light right? how often do we have people with 4 heavies or heavies mix assault/ medium lances compared to anyone with a light mech in there line up? or specificly one with multiple lights in a line up?
Well you can't even do 4 light mechs in a line up...

The playerbase doesn't seem to think light mechs are that good it seems...

The only light mechs that are played are stupidly quirked ones and that's it. I do not see Locusts often, nor commandoes, nor spiders or raven X variants, I rarely see the H firestarter and I do not see the jenners at all either.
Kitfox, adder, and mist lynx? Those things are in dire needs of a buff...


So far we looked at the line up in the MM and in CW... they do not seem to agree with you. Indirectly the playbase...
We looked at the light mechs that isn't a "huginn", or a Raven 3L or a Firestarter pulse spammer.

What do we have left? some of the worst or least popular mechs out there.


Now let's look at the other end of the spectrum...

"6 Energy on a direwolf of any kind?" besides the fact you pointed at a Clan assault, which are not exactly the top of the food chain (neither is the clan lights I have to add). and on purpose ignored all the IS assaults which heavily carry lasers... Banshee with 6 large pulse... Boars head or battlemaster with 6 mediums, medium pulse, etc... or the stalker with 6 large lasers... etc.

The Direwolf (on the meta at least) carry 4 ER medium lasers, 2 Large pulse lasers, and 2 Gauss rifles.

"But I do not care about meta!" you might say, very well. Neither do I... my Direwolf have...
Widowmaker: 2 Large pulse, 3 er mediums, 2 ppc's, and a uac 20... and a small laser.
A: 6 er mediums, 2 uac 5's, 2 er ppc's, SRM 6...
just two of the 5 I got...

Of course i do not count, I am only one player and all...


However continue to look at these big guys...

You say ECM only benifits lights? Look at your Atlas D-DC. That thing can wait in a corner, or flank the enemy without the "low signal" warning to the enemy, You got a monster with an AC 20, 4 medium lasers, and 3 SRM 6's (SRM 6 can be subed for SRM 4's +A, or the AC 20 for 2 LBX 10's).

That's about 82 damage lying right there going directly to the expecting enemy mech... possibly the back, possibly the CT, possibly the main weapon. Either way, 82 damage + sucks especially if you walked into it without knowing...
Doesn't that sound a tad better then a mythical firestarter with 6 medium pulse lasers? If that was a firestarter that took that 82 damage I do not think he would be standing...






What's the point of this post?

Not to say lights are OP or assaults are OP or get better scrub or clans are this and IS is that or what have you.
Not to say I am better then ya and get better skills and l2p issue or to say stop bullying and stealing the crutches.

What I am simply saying, is simply the things you kinda didn't think about or elaborate on.


You said yourself you want lights to do good at what lights should do.
Isn't flanking the enemy and going by unnoticed practically the soul purpose of ANY light that is fit for combat ? (fit for combat = more firepower then 1 medium laser and 2 mg's)



However I would love for the firestarter quriks to change (please just bloody fix the flamers and give these things a flamer quirk... it's weird that this is like a mech with every variant having 4 flamers or so yet you do not see 1 at all on the battlefield.) and to change the huginn (seriously? I thought of this as the best light hero before quirks and it was devestating and suddenly a 50% quirk? I do not want any weapon quirk to be above 30% but this thing got it?)

But either way, it kinda seems like you are making a mountain of a molehill. Most lights at least for me- coming from a player who plays both IS and Clan, All 4 weight classes from 20 tons to 100 tons. etc.

[bad arcade kitty]

Nightshade24, on 16 July 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

There is an overall change soon. For all we know the SSRM's will be able to guide like they do in MW4, where the segment of the mech you locked on the streak missiles will try to hit. (so if I aim at CT and fire, the streaks will hit mostly on the CT) instead of this random RNG-ish nature we got atm..

where did they say it? afaik they only told that they introduce bv system to balance quirk strength

also nerfing bap will nerf lrm too... the range of bap shouldn't be directly related to the range of ecm bubble like nerfing one means they need to buff another, ecm's most powerful feature it's 1/4 of radar range for enemy mechs who try to lock the ecm mech and bap helps to counter it to a degree

they have to get rid of ecm slowing locks by two in the band between 1/4 radar range and ecm bubble if they want to nerf bap

[Appogee]

"This change to ECM is a first pass of what may or may not lead to further changes in its operation."

Makes a miniscule change only to the existing range, announces it as "significant", and then hedges his bets about whether it "may or may not lead to further changes in operation".

16 hours later, I'm still dumbfounded by this audacious declaration of a plan to maybe one day fix something that has needed fixing for two years.

Edited by Appogee, 16 July 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[IdolElite]

ECM has been overpowered from the get go, the player base has just come to accept that over time. On top of that you've been forced to develop multiple ways to counter ECM to make it at least not the clear match decider. Furthermore, even with your efforts you still see the team with ECM pulling off the win simply because of it's presence on their team.

Knocking down the range I hope is just the beginning of a massive overhaul to the whole target locking, info gathering, information warfare aspect of the game. It's been strangely simplified, and as a number of people have pointed out many items have had their uses drastically altered or have been removed entirely. I feel like that whole part of the game has been oversimplified for no good reason.

Edited by IdolElite, 16 July 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Dagorlad13]

IdolElite, on 16 July 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

ECM has been overpowered from the get go, the player base has just come to accept that over time. On top of that you've been forced to develop multiple ways to counter ECM to make it at least not the clear match decider. Furthermore, even with your efforts you still see the team with ECM pulling off the win simply because of it's presence on their team.

Knocking down the range I hope is just the beginning of a massive overhaul to the whole target locking, info gathering, information warfare aspect of the game. It's been strangely simplified, and as a number of people have pointed out many items have had their uses drastically altered or have been removed entirely. I feel like that whole part of the game has been oversimplified for no good reason.

Be careful what you wish for. In lore only Clan mechs have the built-in ability to relay targeting information directly to each other, the IS has to equip C3 computer systems (which take up tonnage and slots) to have the same ability.

[Mystere]

Puresin, on 16 July 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

stop doing stuff that makes it easier for the lights. cause honestly right now with the way things are going you might as well get rid of all the weight classes and just have lights.

What in Hades' name are you talking about? The light queue is at 11% right now and I've even seen it go to 5% or even under. If they were so dominant, you'd think the queue would have the 50% the heavy queue has right now.

Or are you just really protecting your very own interests, being you seem to be in the "Bigger is better!" crowd?

Edited by Mystere, 16 July 2015 - 11:55 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Mystere, on 16 July 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

What in Hades' name are you talking about? The light queue is at 11% right now and I've even seen it go to 5% or even under. If they were so dominant, you'd think the queue would have the 50% the heavy queue has right now.

Or are you just really protecting your very own interests, being you seem to be in the "Bigger is better!" crowd?

yeah, That was just...bizarre...

Right now the only reason to run lights, for most players anyway, is to mix it up and add a challenge instead of running heavies/assaults all the time.

[Telmasa]

Kilo 40, on 17 July 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

yeah, That was just...bizarre...

Right now the only reason to run lights, for most players anyway, is to mix it up and add a challenge instead of running heavies/assaults all the time.

I like to run my lights because that sorta gameplay is the least affected by the quirkening (with some exceptions).

And also least affected by whatever teammates happen to be doing.

Edited by Telmasa, 17 July 2015 - 03:35 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Devorum, on 16 July 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

They don't "hold their ground all the time", they play something else. That's what there's typically less than 10% Light 'Mechs in the queue.

Keep pretending that a weapon group for Bads which auto-hits ~50 damage isn't broken, though.

I run a Streakcrow for lulz...I know exactly what it can do.

Lol, yeah dream on, there are plenty of non ecm lights being fielded, at least amongst specific elo's. the reason why the light queue is not much filled is that lights play mostly boring due to low tonnage. since the most of them have similar loadouts. Mainly lasers, since its what fits within the tonnage. medium queue is sometimes low too, simply because similar issues. Mech get interetsing at the top medium and low heavy area, because there you can start to play around with differnt laodouts.

How many "really" different FS9's can you play? I could own 9 differently loadouts of MDD's and they all would play completely differently and fun. But FS9's quite too similar, and too boring.

Devorum, on 16 July 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

They don't "hold their ground all the time", they play something else. That's what there's typically less than 10% Light 'Mechs in the queue.

Keep pretending that a weapon group for Bads which auto-hits ~50 damage isn't broken, though.

I run a Streakcrow for lulz...I know exactly what it can do.

I tell you what it can do: spread damage all over the place. because they lock on specific parts There are some easy counters for lights to streaks, given you know them and are aware ingame. srm's would still beat ssrm's if you have somewhat of aim.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 July 2015 - 03:42 AM.

[kesmai]

90m is a good start. Next would be the split guardian/angel ecm. After that comes MAD. As promised.
and cockpit bacon items, which is the most important thing, trust me.

Edited by kesmai, 17 July 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[shopsmart]

Had some time think on this. 90m seems like a knee jerk reaction. 120 might be better. Essentially 33% cut. Completely understand due to the mass of ecm I am seeing now. No target locks sometimes during entire game with a very well co-ordinated team. Only problem I see is ecm jamming becoming really hard to do and rewards not worth it. Maybe keep the 180 jam range? Beagle too? Cut into the ecm to much and some models of mech will see lower sales. Pirates bane for one, but with quirks also being redone to modify ecm/sensor ranges. Hats off to that idea.

[Miles McQuiston]

ECM overhaul sounds good. ECM cloaks target from locks (bubble resize is about right maybe a little smaller), but only at long ranges 550m and beyond. BAP would cut into this and make it 700m. Inside the 550/700 meters ECM just increases lock time. Sensor range module add 100m detection range. Thus BAP + Sensor Range allows detection of ECM at 800m. Since we are talking about dropping the C3 style of locks just get rid of the ECM jamming sensors at short range and make the counter ECM mode provide BAP like detection at 600m (thus not as good as BAP, but counters ECM). Thus for ECM to be effective you would have to keep range from the target. In addition TAG lasers shoud be in IR spectrum. If the decision is to make LRM mechs require line of site, lets give them something better than a here I am shoot me in the face laser that TAG is now. TAG laser range should be 1000m and would allow painting targets under ECM at range. Take away the C3 type of missile lock currently in effect as others have suggested. Good news here is you can later implement C3 and have it cost the tonnage it should to have it. Narc could use a speed increase as well.

Empower LRMs only in team play. I.E. Narc is a beacon, dummy fire lrms and they track the nearest beacon. TAG should guide LRMs to target. If LRMs are dummy fired while a mech is tagged the LRMs will track toward last location of TAG. Keep the target tagged and the LRMs will continue to track to it. Tweak duration of TAG marker as needed (1 second, 1.5 second). Thus LRM indirect fire requires an active measure to guide them to target. Adjust missile tracking capability based off presence of ECM. I.E. dummy fired into ECM field don't track to target as well, but still put damage on targets.

AMS - Make it a better defense against LRMs. 1XAMS against LRM15 should shoot down 7-8. 2XAMS elimiantes a 15 volley. 3XAMS eliminates a 20 volley. So by extension an LRM5 is obliterated and LRM5 spam would not get through and would simply be a means of draining AMS ammo. No time delay between AMS engaging volleys simply cannot engage missiles from more than one mech simultaneously. This would make it such that LRM mechs would have to carry a significant amount of ammo to truly be game deciders.

LRMs - Now wait just a second I am not saying make LRMs irrelevant. Speed up LRMs signiifcantly and speed up lock time significantly, not to mention improve tracking with LOS. Thus LRM mechs can reasonably use direct line of site to fire. Same would apply to streaks. Significantly shorter lock time alot more missiles shot down by AMS. Buy yourself a deprivation module and equip AMS if you are still having trouble.

These are my suggestions. LRMs can only be nullified with significant planning ECM/AMS/COVER/Target Deprivation Module. ECM still cloaks mechs but at range. Since C3 target sharing would be eliminated everyone has to expose to lock targets and get damage data.TAG/NARC would have to be used for indirect fire to be effective. Probably not perfect, but a start.

[Dawnstealer]

Mockingbird42, on 16 July 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ok LRM Friends, let me clarify this plz: The "no skill weapon" is not exactly my main point. In fact it is the thing that pops up in my head when I have a brawl with an enemy and all of a sudden my LRM teammate or his LRM Teammate kicks in and ruins one of us. Yes I dont like it if people sit behind cover 600 m away and ruin interesting gameplay. It ruins my fun! sry thats how I feel about it. I got it that others dont feel the same.
But my real Point is: LRMs are terrible for everyone. They cant be balanced becouse they are digital: They get the lock and u are done. They dont get the lock and they are done.

No matter how strong or weak u make them, there will either be a skill level where they wreck and dominate everything (beginners skill level) or are totally useless (high level Players, caus they know how to handle them ).

IF they get get the lock or not is merely coincidental. ANd Lurmers, I feel your pain with ecm; enemy has or has not ecm in pugs. Then you have or have not a spotter, narcer or uav. But thats exactly the problem. Dumbfiring LRMs with autoaim once locked is terrible for gameplay and no fun of the targets. You can do almost nothing once somehow locked you.

And being confronted with ecm is terrible for the lurmer. You can do nothing ( -errh cough tag.., cough cough.. own lock.cough -sry couldnt resist

My point is
LRMS now are a bad system cause either they wreck stuff coincidentally or are a liability to the team. ECM is a equally bad counter to this so my point is, both should be reworked. The main decision for how the LRM-ECM game goes is before the match. This is not the way I want games to be decided. This is not the way I want my influence to the outcome to be severely restricted.

Dang, I answered an Lrm post, didnt want to do that

And my mechs, or the vast majority of them, are built as brawlers, not lurmboats. But lurms DO have a function in this game. Think of them as controlled artillery that's "on the board." Your teammates can call down the thunder on someone or force them back into cover. If someone's stupid enough to stand out in the open while getting pounded, that's more of a "them" problem than an "LRM" problem.

I get the frustration, though - I've been caught out in the open before, too, and pounded into the ground by lurms. It happens.

[Sabotai]

I like the change, I personally don't use ecms, I find enemy ecms to be troubling versus my cancer boats and my skill crows and skill timber, assuming the counter distance is also tuned to 90, but then comes the question will it still mean that ecm targets can only be targetted from 200m? if yes, great, I like the change!

Id love the targetting distance to be buffed to 240 or 250 aswell.

[Felbombling]

Your first inclination should have been to eliminate the JesusBox umbrella of protection that the equipment gives off, not reduce the range. Let's hope that is part of your fix, because we have been telling you it was overpowered from the day it was introduced, and range was the least of the concerns we pointed out.

[L A V A]

The problem MWO has is that it has no scaling. So everything is based on arbitrary ranges.

Scaling means that on active radar you will see a large target far sooner than a small one.

On seismic you will detect a heavier object long before you detect a light one.

In real life, when it comes to sensors, mass and range have a huge effect on detection and lock on.

In MWO, PGI makes arbitrary ranges which apply equally to all classes of mechs. This is really poor modeling and should be the issue folks are most concerned with.

Sort that out first and then stuff like ECM coverage,BAP and LRM/streak locks will just fall right into place.

[Fubbit]

The original post is just plain weird.

A several paragraph discussion about one (hopefully relatively trivial) aspect of an entire redo to the "information warfare" system with no context at all is useless.

Also, a redo of the quirk system? Sounds great, but that's the kind of thing to post about.

Information like this (in my opinion) needs to start from the general ( an outline ) and move to the specifics ( ecm_range_val = ??? )

Please take the time to make a useful post that outlines the general plan, then we can yell at each other about the specifics as it becomes relevant.

[Spleenslitta]

Fubbit, on 17 July 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

The original post is just plain weird.

A several paragraph discussion about one (hopefully relatively trivial) aspect of an entire redo to the "information warfare" system with no context at all is useless.

Also, a redo of the quirk system? Sounds great, but that's the kind of thing to post about.

Information like this (in my opinion) needs to start from the general ( an outline ) and move to the specifics ( ecm_range_val = ??? )

Please take the time to make a useful post that outlines the general plan, then we can yell at each other about the specifics as it becomes relevant.

I find that the way Paul outlined it is fine. He explained everything in detail so that we could see things from his perspective.
What's wrong with that?

We will hear about the quirk stuff another day.
I'm sure they have ideas about replacing quirks but they are too rough to talk about right now.

[JC Daxion]

Why not ECM only effect your mech...

if you are moving at half your MAX speed it stops working..

add more levels of sensors, and yes i am talking upgrade the sensor aspect of the game, so you need to use bigger/heavier sensors, to even mount it in the first place..

Not just strip a little armor, drop a heat sink, and BAM you are turning off targeting on your whole lance....

[Old Fart]

nurf this then that, you people are trying to loss more people, ive seen hundred's leave because of bull that you are putting on meches. = timber and storms. like IS Highlanders stop already. did not have this bull in MW4. Pay really good money for these and hate getting ripped off.