945 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

JC Daxion, on 17 July 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

if you are moving at half your MAX speed it stops working..

No... many things wrong with that suggestion,

First and least relevant, that makes no sense when you think about how electronic countermeasures work, a mech will never come close to out running jamming waves.

Second and somewhat relevant, some skilled players do leave throttle decay on, meaning achieving half speed consistently would be a pain in the ass for part of the player base.

Lastly, you are asking light mechs to move slowly. Light mechs should never do this unless they are walking behind Assaults and heavies, otherwise it's a death sentance.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Also if we do come around to nerfing ECM so that it's buff only applies to the mech equipping it, I assume we are going to be taking away counter mode since the ECM no longer has a field effect? if so can we give ECM an "off" mode and when it's off allow BAPs countering function to work?

To the few of us who run ECM and streaks (I don't boat them) this is important.

[Lugh]

ECM is one ton, it should unlock say 3 or 4 'sub modules' for potential use.

Potential sub modules:

1) no sig (doesn't allow any other modules) this module reduces your detection signature like now, without extending to anyone else. Still beaten out by bap
2) SRM scrambler makes tracking and hence spread worse on SRMs, increases the time needed to lock on for SSRMS.
---SRM tracking increaser for the opposing affect for a second slot. Both protect withing that 90m radius
3) LRM scrambler Longer locks and an increase in the missile spread for lrms
----target locker for LRM as well. both separate modules.

And so on. # of module slots is negotiable, but likely you'd want it so that a single ECM can only do two of these things.

[Ken Harkin]

I love my Ravel 3L and rely on ECM. That said simply let ECM have a range of 0.

[Markoxford]

As a "no skillz" LRM player I really can't support the change - ECM in pug match is very unpredictable, sometimes yu get none sometimes you 4 or even more. In higher level CW matches there are generally 1 or 2 on each side at all times, (more if you play IS). As with all things I believe that a base has been reached and counters are sufficient to deny dominance to the ECM mech. Reducing the range only nerfs LRMs and Streaks, (due to BAP being nerfed too), in the current meta and does nothing for the already over powered laser/er ppc boats that are quirked beyond their realistic capabilities.

TL:DR Not supportted, nerfs streaks and lrms leaving ranged weapons even more powerful

[Bullseye69]

As long as both ecm and beagle have a range reduction it should be OK. But ecm should really on effect the mech it mounted on. I would like to see a reduction of the range on tag myself, it seems really foolish that a tag has the range it has and it make shooting the tagging mech hard unless your mounting really long range weapons they should be a down side to using it either in range or heat or both. If your giving them rewards for tagging mech then they should be paying a penalty for doing so either having to get closer to you their a chance to hit them greater or a penalty in terms of heat when you have tag turned on I see mechs all the time that have tagged turnwdon the whole game.

[Veev]

Flutterguy, on 15 July 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Your logic makes AMS sad... ECM really shouldn't be the go to system to stop missiles.

I almost never run AMS anymore, too many ECM mechs shielding everything.

[Bellum Dominum]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 17 July 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Also if we do come around to nerfing ECM so that it's buff only applies to the mech equipping it, I assume we are going to be taking away counter mode since the ECM no longer has a field effect? if so can we give ECM an "off" mode and when it's off allow BAPs countering function to work?

To the few of us who run ECM and streaks (I don't boat them) this is important.

Good point, altho counter still has an effect.. ie that sniper 3L raven you are chasing in your spider would be nice to counter so your teams lrms can help with the fight
or for streaks....

[Carrioncrows]

*Sigh*

ECM done wrong again.

[Xannatharr]

ECM is way overdone right now, because it has an impact on the game that is vastly disproportionate to its tonnage/critical slot carry cost. Nobody wants LURMpocalalypse 5.0 but before folks get their panties twisted too tight, they should probably wait to see how the reduced ECM range affects gameplay.

We should also try to be patient and learn a little more about other planned changes that will (hopefully) enhance the Information Warfare aspect of the game.

Those of you that have posted in this thread ten, twenty times or more... perhaps you should reconsider how you use your time. Think about something else for a little while, or maybe even just log in and play the game. Seriously

Regards,

Xann

Edited by Xannatharr, 17 July 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Xannatharr, on 17 July 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

Those of you that have posted in this thread ten, twenty times or more... perhaps you should reconsider how you use your time. Think about something else for a little while, or maybe even just log in and play the game. Seriously

Regards,

Xann

You mean we shouldn't use forums for what they were intended and debate ideas back and forth in a location the devs are sure to see to consider what we come up with for suggestions in a forum format? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Seriously?

(Psst dual monitors or even more for a lot of us so we can actually play and participate in the forums at the same time.)

Sincerely,
Death Drow

[Jabilo]

Look at the PASSION in this thread.

You all deserved something more than this.

[Mahrexen]

What is the range for unit coherence? (The range you need to get the bonus for being grouped)

It would make sense to have ECM range and unit range match, so as long as you were traveling as a unit your group would be under ECM cover, but not have a situation that the whole team has ECM coverage from two mechs.

Also if people knew that the ECM range was the same range as unit coherence, people would get used to what that range feels like to travel as a unit, since ECM gives visual queues if you are in it or not.

This way we might actually have units traveling together more often maintaining unit coherence.

[bad arcade kitty]

Bullseye69, on 17 July 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

As long as both ecm and beagle have a range reduction it should be OK.

grrrr
yet again, beagle range shouldn't be touched together with the nerf to the range of the ecm bubble because 1/4 radar range for hidden mechs (200 meters, 250 with bap) and the double lock time for those in the band between 1/4 and the bubble remain intact

[Kiriesani]

TLDR version:
Good ECM change.
Spotting isn't fun or effective.
Seismic really isn't that good.
LRMs are garbage.

I will say that I agree with the ECM changes. And really I agree with the 60 meter difference. I agree with a lot of things being said about it. Like LOS LRMs and plenty of other stuff.

Here's what I don't agree with.

Spotting isn't fun. Sitting back and tagging something is great and all but unless your team is sporting LRMs, which most groups just aren't very often (or at least KFC never is), it's not very rewarding. What's rewarding is seeing your actions effect the outcome of the match. Sitting around with a tag or narc just doesn't do that very much and it's not very vital to any sort of comp play where people just aim center torso and usually hit. I started this game playing lights and thinking spotting would be fun. That was back in open beta when we had only two lights.

It wasn't.

Not to mention the rewards for spotting are garbage, your damage doesn't really go up with a tag, and plenty of other factors.

Honestly there's problems with LRMs, artimis, and tag in general anyway. I can be in a hunchback 4J with artimis and 2 LRM 10s, use a tag on a stationary target at 300-400 meters, and the LRMs hit them in the LEGS. With the laser pointed at their CT.

Sure being an LRM 80-100 is fun when someone ELSE is running narc but honestly it's not very engaging or rewarding or FUN gameplay being a narc/tag boat anyway. Not to mention the second to fire that tag the enemy team knows exactly where the hell you are anyway. Not very good for spotting unless you give the tag an infinite range and remove the enemy's ability to SEE the tag in the first place.

Someone also mentioned something about seismic sensor and blah blah blah. Honestly, I don't even run the thing anymore, I run faster target information. Why? Because knowing where the enemy is hurt is more important. Not to mention you can run select cockpit items that will actually shake if an enemy mech is walking around you and you stop moving which you have to do with seismic anyway. Yes I run urbie trashcans as a makeshift seismic.

All in all I don't see information warfare being all that important. Higher tier players will still aim CT and not miss regardless of whether or not they have information on you or not. Group play will still take place on TS3 and it's as easy as saying "yeah I saw them over there and he's smoking right torso" to remove a lot of the benefits of actual information. Maybe solo queue is different. Maybe there the gameplay will be engaging and fun.

But honestly I don't know that role warfare, spotting, and ECM changes are going to make the game more interesting or fun. Honestly I'd rather see ECM just taken out. I'd like to see LRMs have meaning in group queue. Right now there's no reason to fit LRMs when you can fire 5 medium and two large pulse into a CT for pinpoint alpha damage that instantly hits rather than a maybe hit with LRMs that take a lot more weight and ammo dependent. You could take out ECM entirely, double how fast LRMs move, and I'd still bring a laser over an LRM 5-20 any day because I know WHERE I'm going to hit and I know I'm going to hit.

Anyway I hope that helped. I don't post often because I actually play the game rather than post on the forums.

Edited by Kiriesani, 17 July 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[Skarlock]

bad arcade kitty, on 15 July 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

to clarify why changing bap range will hurt streaks

ecm has 2 different zones, 180 (will change to 90) meters zone inside which ecm jams sensors/prevents locks and 200 meters zone outside which ecm prevents locks and radar marks; in the band between 180(90) and 200 you can lock the ecm hidden mech but twice as slowly (or to give the target info to another teammate to lock, twice as slowly again); bap increases 200 to 250 though

now, bap has 240 meters range (streaks have 360 so ecm mech already has an advantage), it's a nice distance to use streaks, but if they blindly decrease bap range it will slow down the locks by two in the band between 250 and the new bap range

they cannot really increase the 200 meters no lock zone either, because it's a separate nerf to ecm and mostly to its solo usage

i dunno, imo they either shouldn't even touch bap at all or should make that it allows normal locks at at least 240 meters range even if it completely negates ecm at a shorter range

upd

a bit fixed, added that bap buffs the sensors too and afaik extends that 200 meter zone by 25%

If you're using a streak boat you should be using a TAG. TAG decreases the lock on time, BAP doesn't. TAG negates ECM at up to 750 meters, far further than the range of clan streaks + range module, BAP is pretty short range to begin with and does not work at any range your streaks could potentially hit with.

[bad arcade kitty]

Skarlock, on 17 July 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

If you're using a streak boat you should be using a TAG. TAG decreases the lock on time, BAP doesn't. TAG negates ECM at up to 750 meters, far further than the range of clan streaks + range module, BAP is pretty short range to begin with and does not work at any range your streaks could potentially hit with.

there is a major flaw with tag - it doesn't work inside the ecm bubble, i.e. at all, if you have a tag and a single enemy ecm mech covers you with its bubble... you are done

that's why bap is mandatory while tag is optional

to take both bap and tag it's 2 precious tons, very precious because streakboats waste ammo like mad, some do it but if this ecm 'nerf' forces people to either tolerate double time locks or to take bap and tag

it will kill streak summoner, for instance, will hurt 6 ssrm-6 mad dog etc

also consider lurms, all the locks they get from spotters with bap will have double lock time too

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 17 July 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[Gumon Choji]

Paul here is the issue. ECM blocking info gathering and visuals on seen mechs makes it too strong. But without it missiles are too strong. Have ECM only effect missiles lock and lower the range slightly will fix the issue. Again this is the only reliable anti missile tool when 3 boats are on the field. Let me see the mech painted but no lock is a good solution as it makes ECM a role not a super power.

90m may be ok but seriously let us target and not get locks. then 180 is ok.

As a side note if your company ruined the quirked mechs I love I will want my money back And having dropped over $500 on imaginary items I think it is reasonable to request this. Though I do like the direction the game has moved over the last 3 months. i just do not want to lose things I have worked hard to earn in cash and hours. The balance of some of the mechs have really been based on the existing quirks.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heres a suggestion to information warfare/fixing ECM
Give all mechs Seismic Sensor by default as a "Radar"

Almost all mechs equip the module seismic sensor. It has become the de facto Radar of Mechwarrior Online. (don't freak out. Think of this change as just Seismic Sensor with more integration into Role Warfare)
Summary of what changing seismic sensor to Radar will do for the game :

• Active/Passive Radar
  
• True to lore implementation of ECM. That doesn't break all missiles
  
• Visual/Missile Targeting is the ONLY mechanic of Information Warfare right now. This change will fix that
  
• True to lore implementation of whatever the hell radar tech you can think of
  
• Null Sig

And here is the how:



By actually having a Radar mechanic you are are able to implement features that are true to lore.
Meanwhile the Radar(seismic sensor) portion of the game is still kept separate from the Missile Lock/Visual Lock portion of the game. What this mean is:

#1 Just because you see mechs on your Radar(seismic sensor) doesn't mean you can lob LRMs at them. Just because you see them on Radar, doesn't mean you can have damage information on them. (A problem the developers sought to get rid of from the old game.)

#2 Lore ECM: Having a separate Radar and Missile targeting system means that ECM can have the Radar jamming portion of its function (invisible from Radar), without the missile targeting interference. I.E true to lore and does not break an entire 1/3 of the weapons.


#3 You can tune/adjust a mech's Radar capability without hindering its Missile/Visual Targeting ability. I.E if you lower the Missile Targeting range from 1000 you can no longer effectively use LRMS. Whereas if you lower the Radar radius there is no effect on viability of Missile weapons. Worried that giving light mechs 2x Visual/Missile Lock will wreck the game? Worry no more, giving light mechs 2x Radar range is fine and encouraged!

#4 Passive/Active Radar! Turn off your own Radar(Seismic Sensor), and other mechs will not see you on their Radar. This means mechs will still be able to sneak around, and have that stealth gameplay.



Heck, devs can add Null Sig if they wanted to if it no longer has functionality overlap with ECM. Miss your Sniper Raven? Slap that Null Sig onto a Rave, turn on Passive Radar and it works just like ECM does now without the broken umbrella.

Okay, I will admit that I don't know what most of this means in regards to the Lore aspect, but I will say that every piece of this is pretty darn cool and could really, REALLY shake things up and how Information Warfare, Communication and general tactics will function and evolve.

This is something I really, REALLY think the Devs should look into!

[HammerMaster]

No.
But hey try it anyways.
You insisted on YOUR(PGIl) spin on ECM.
20+ years ago it was written out in the source books.
YOUR(PGI) way is much maligned, overpowered. Dreadful.
But HEY try it YOUR(PGI) way again!