945 replies to this topic

[Twilight Fenrir]

StalaggtIKE, on 16 July 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

Paul, incremental changes or not makes no difference. People would complain if it was ionly decreased down to 179m. In the end it's not even the range that is the issue. It's the mechanic and how things interact with it. There needs to be an overhaul on the following:

• Decouple shared target info and shared missile lock
  
• Rework of LRM locking (direct LOS only; shared missile lock only through TAG or NARC)
  
• Rework of ECM (only blocks advanced tech and shared missile locks)

Agreed, the current a lock for all kind of needs ECM as it is. Missile locks should only be shared with TAG, NARC, or C3. Right now, basically all mechs have C3 slave and Master built into them, making LRMs perform better than they should, making ECM need to be betrer than it should.

[L A V A]

Dr Tachyon, on 16 July 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

Please consider reducing the range of streaks to coincide.

You see this is the knock on effect that you have when you try to solve problems using the easiest path.

ECM should not be a "fixed" range. It should be scaled based on the size of the mech and it's capacity. The ECM bubble of a light mech should be dwarfed by that of an Assault.

Think Targeting Computers. If I'm in an Atlas and want to bring (buy) an ECM Type 5... not my problem if by doing so I can protect a whole lance... or more.

But we won't do that, instead we will apply the "Seismic Sensor Solution" by simply changing range effectiveness... even though an Assault should be able to be detected at far greater distances than a light (scaling).

[Tumbling Dice]

Moomtazz, on 15 July 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

I guess sales of the Griffin and Phract ECM mechs have tapered off enough to where Russ thinks he sold all he will sell. Add that to the clever release of the Clan Third wave Heavy and Assault mechs before the two ECM carriers from the pack, ensuring that people can't cancel their pre-orders for the soon to be nerfed mechs.

Very clever but very manipulative. Shame on PGI!

I purchased two Griff and two Phract ecm's to counter the LRM's from clanners in CW. While this ECM adjustment may be good for the game going forward, I will not be purchasing anything going forward until all 'beta' phases are completed.

[Tom Sawyer]

Its a start.

Magic Bubble ECM has to go.

May take some serious tinkering and programing but this is a small step in the right direction.

[Murphy7]

It's not just ECM that needs the reworking - ECM is massively overpowered in its current implementation primarily because of how sensors and radar were implemented to begin with, and how targeting was tied to it. It's the detection, variance between active and passive sensors, and some changes in targeting that could help make ECM more sensible.

That said, with the proliferation of ECM capable mechs, I am in favor of the reduced range down to 90m or even 60m.

[Koniving]

Chiming in.

I do not, and have never believed, ECM's effective range to be an issue. In this range, your sensors are hindered, your ability to target is reduced, your data is cut down. This is ideal and iconic.

It's the fact that BEYOND 180 meters, enemy sensors (i.e. yours against the ECM) are hindered in a completely NON-CANON, Un-balanced way.

ECM is intended to disable any missile enhancements occurring for missiles targeted at or within the field of ECM as well as passing through said field.

• I.E. if Awesome 8R fires Artemis-enhanced LRMs at target 800 meters in the distance and those LRMs fly over a Raven 3L with ECM standing at 500 meters within 180 meters of those missiles in such a way they make contact with the field, once said LRMs pass through said ECM field, Artemis enhancements are nullified and LRMs are standard LRMs (and if ECM is countered after the fact there is no change to dumbed down LRMs.
  
  • If Artemis-enhanced LRMs is fired at the ECM carrying mech, Artemis is nullified as the targeting mech's beam cannot focus properly on said ECM user; missiles behave as standard LRMs unless ECM is countered within time frame and visual lock is reacquired to guide missiles. (Yes, this Artemis sounds distinctly like a TAG, because essentially TAG does the same for "Homing LRMs" and "Arrow IV artillery missiles." Thus you often see custom rules doing the same effects against TAG.)

ECM denies/increases time to target information - in example weapons and their status, health, which variant - but does NOT change the fact that a target is visually acquirable and can be attacked with 100% normal accuracy with LRMs / SRMs / Streaks beyond 180 meters.



This is where the change has been requested time and time again. Yes 180 meters is a good brawling range field. That is ideal.

What is not ideal is the fact that it's a cloak shield up to maximum possible sensor range.

The fact of MWO's cloakshield on ECM is not only non-canon, but virtually makes ECM a requirement, forces the limitation of ECM to specific units, severely limits potential variety of Community Warfare teams to stale selections, forces numerous Hard and Soft counters to a device designed to counter the immensely overpowered BAP and Artemis systems (in Battletech). ECM in and of itself is perhaps one of the poorest stealth systems you can use, rated about equivalent to a mech using camouflage. In other words, virtually worthless as a stealth system. It is not intended to be, nor should it ever be, a sensor-cloaking device.

In fact, in PGI's developer blogs it is clear that PGI had other intentions for role warfare when it comes to sensors and stealth in the form of consumables such as Sensor Disruption Buoys, Target Spam Buoys, and Interception of Enemy Surveillance Data.

Quote

Dev Blog 2 - Information Warfare

In this blog we discuss some of the details about Information Warfare and what it means to MechWarrior® Online™. As always we're revealing details that are beta ready.
Contributors include Bryan Ekman, Paul Inouye, and David Bradley.
Overview

At its heart, Information Warfare is about controlling the flow of information on the battlefield.

• Knowing where your enemy is.
  
• Knowing the current status of your enemy.
  
• Understanding your enemy’s intentions.
  
• Sharing information between units.

BattleGrid


The core of information warfare is the BattleGrid, a combination of command center and dynamic battlefield map useable by players during gameplay. The BattleGrid is an extension of the HUD and allows players to quickly review the tactical situation at hand. Players will immediately recognize elements from other successful shooters and previous MechWarrior® products.

• A scalable battlefield top-down map.
  
• Object and waypoint markers.
  
• Friendly and Enemy Unit Markers
  
• Support Units
  
• Orders

Modules – A New Concept


In order to evolve the concept of MechWarrior®, we needed a new layer of customization. After several scrapped ideas, we settled on a module concept. Modules allow players to customize their BattleMech with functionality without having to deal with the existing slots and tonnage rules.
Each BattleMech will come with Module Board. Players can insert modules of their choice, provided they have space. Each module adds a layer of functionality. Modules are linked to the Pilot Tree and are unlocked by training various skills.
Modules are also a very important part of Role Warfare - a topic for a future blog.
Targeting Tweaks

We’ve changed how targeting has worked by layering and controlling what players see and know about the opposing force elements.
Target information is now exclusively Line of Sight/Detection (LOSD). Simply put, if you, a teammate or support unit can’t directly see or detect a target using a module, that target is invisible. Target information decays rapidly. This means if you lose LOSD, you will lose all knowledge that target’s position and current status.
Details about a target are not inclusive, and is now layered based on the type of modules and BattleMech you are piloting. The concept helps emphasizes using specific `Mech and Module combinations to gain and share enhanced targeting information.
Sharing of target information is also no longer inclusive and requires a Module or C3 Master/Slave unit.
Detection

So how do you gather LOSD information? Well there are several ways.

• Direct – You can see the target directly (LOSD).
  
• Radar – Your radar can detect a target in a predetermined arc, also LOSD.
  
• Satellite Scan – Orbital scan of the battlefield, highly efficient however still limited to top-down LOSD.
  
• UAV – Similar to a Sat Scan, but localized to a specific area on the battlefield.
  
• Detectors – Dropped off on the battlefield.
  
• Units – Any non-BattleMech present on the battlefield.

Detection Modes


Each type of detection device may also have different primary or secondary modes of detection as follows:

• Night Vision – Allows players to see more detail in low light situations.
  
• Thermal Vision – Allows players to see heat signatures that can be detected through obstacles.
  
• Magnetometer Assisted – Allows players to detect metal and metal densities which can uncover a BattleMech hiding behind a building.

Some of these modes will not be available at launch, but I want to give you an overview of where we plan to take this concept.


Disruption/Spoofing

With such an emphasis on detection and tracking, we also needed a counter balance, something that players could equip. Using the module system, we allow players to equip Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) devices in the form of:

• Spoofers – Beacons that send out a false target signatures.
  
• Disruptors – Disrupt or block modes, communication, target acquisition and locks.
  
• Surveillance – Allows a player to intercept and decode enemy intel.

We've opened up the Community Q&A 3 thread for your questions, so ask away!

Source:

Furthermore, to assist in information warfare, the original Battlegrid sensor system should be brought back. That is to say that blips appear every X seconds rather than in real time.

Mute this video (because audio issues) and watch the Battlegrid/radar at any and all points during the video (especially in combat). Notice how movement is detected periodically rather than constantly. We won't need a cloaking device with sensors like those.

Edited by Koniving, 16 July 2015 - 06:23 AM.

[Tiger Dad]

90m is a good start. What could that mean during the adjustment period:
More people bring ECM mechs.
Less people covered under ECM.
More people lurmed.
More people bringing lurms.
More people crying about lurms.
More AMS used (hopefully).
More people learning to be careful to use cover and maybe more careful in general.
KitFox revived as a loved mech (trip AMS).
No real change to streakers I guess against an ECM light (if they have streaks they should have BAP anyway).
May actually nerf it a bit if BAP range is also lowered. ECM mechs need to stay out of the 90m and pew pew back.
More huddling maybe.
More people stepping on the light to leech ECM and get AMS cover.
More chasing of the ECM light at the end of match because the "low radar" detection will be closer.

Questions:
Will/Can rewards systems be reworked for the increased tonnage a light (or maybe any mech) carries for the AMS protection?


That's all that I can think about in PUGLandia right now.
Will edit this post as I think of more.

Edited by Tiger Dad, 16 July 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[TheRealTommo]

Range decrease is needed.

[JoeKidd]

Let the LRMageddon begin!

[EVA1313]

On ECM:
I think it works great, I honestly do. I have piloted both LRM boats, brawlers, and scouts. It adds a fun quirk to the game. I have fought with it and against it.
What might be a solution is adding a consumable module to counter it. let me explain.

You have a module, let call espionage, it costs 40,000 (like most consumables). Upon seeing an ECM Mech within radar range only the pilot how has the module can see, get locks and counter that ECM. The consumable is spent automatically upon entering the match.

The upgrade for the consumable is that works not on just the 1st Mech that is seen but on all ECM.

In lore their were spies who would rig Mechs to blow legs in the middle of combat, i am not sure i am ready to go to extreme It would be nice to see more "NPC modules" in the game.
if half the battle is knowing your enemy and we are not using NPC modules to do that then we are missing that half of the battle.

[BadKimche]

Completely disagree with this approach, a 50% reduction is way too drastic a change.

Jesus you guys don't do anything in moderation do you?

I have more then enough matches where one team has no ECM equipped mechs at all. ECM should be a staple component for any force, it's important, no force would go to the field without it by choice.

But on the flip side, the poster who wants to take the perfect counter to ECM, Seismic Sensor, and change it from a logical counter to ECM to a completely illogical one is ridiculous. A mech already has sensors like RADAR, that is the purpose of ECM, to defeat or JAM these sensors. Seismic Sensor is passive where RADAR is always active, no such thing as passive RADAR.

Both RADAR and ECM would easily travel the full distance o any map in this game under the rules of reality. I can understand the reasons for a game to artificially limit I. But I you really want to limit ECM, you should do it in away that makes sense. How many mechs are being protected by ECM has nothing to do with the function of what ECM would do, ECM should be "preventing enemy mechs from gaining "active" electronic signature locks on friendly mechs. How many mechs can be jammed at a time is a good limiting factor.

As an example, one ECM equipped mech could say, jam up to 10 electronic sensors. Now I didn't say it could jam 10 mechs, I said 10 sensors. A mech with Artemis would count for two, a mech with Artemis and Streaks would count for 3, etc. Furthermore, the effect of being jammed doesn't have to be absolute, the closer a mech is to the ECM source the great effect it should have. At longer distances it wouldn't have a great impact, at closer distances it should be stronger.

This brings into focus the first real problem with how ECM is implemented in the game. Currently ECM acts as a protective "bubble", it should be a disruptive "bubble" instead. It should be an electronic countermeasure that reduces the effectiveness of enemy sensor system and therefor I should target and effect as many sensors as "possible", (based on a defined limitation), and not act as a "mask" on friendlies mech. It's a technical distinction that if coded correctly will become much more realistic and easier for the devs to deal with when I comes to gameplay balance.

RADAR shouldn't reveal mechs that are not in "line-of-sight" to a RADAR source. ECM shouldn't have the effect o stopping all enemy mechs from locking onto every mech in the ECM range, ECM should act as an active sensor jammer that only has the ability to "identify, analyze, and counter" a discrete number of sensors.

As for the two different modes, just make I two different power levels, the first doesn't greatly increase the electronic signature of the ECM equipped mech, but is less effective, the second higher power level I much more effective an increases range up to the limited number of sensors, but I also makes a beacon of the ECM equipped mech meaning the enemy will get rapid target locks on him.

[BadKimche]

Please forgive all the typos, too many it and is becoming I.

[General Taskeen]

Where to start with this one supposed 'change'; good grief.

But...but I thought PGI said it was how they wanted ECM for 2+ years? Its, you know, only the most nonsensical ECM implementation in any MW game ever.

Its been gone over a million times since, but here it is again for what should be crux, base, or whatever that should be addressed: "ECM does not affect LRM Indirect Fire or Streak in any way, shape or form. Angel ECM can disable Streak's ability to lock on." <-Additionally Streaks are supposed be able to dumbfire.

Not that this will really matter, but I'll humor myself, so here it goes...

But then the oft repeated thought by PGI and thousands crying out in terror, "But how is it useful then?" That has been discussed and repeated to infinity and beyond as well. The most simple solution? A 1:1 implementation like the old games; while enhancing or adding additional features or whatever is possible to code in a newagey MW game. Basically this means the "gamey" mechanic of slower-lock on time still being present BUT not preventing the lock outright, which simulates the roll-to-hit. Hell you could even make it so certain makes take longer to lock on based on size... like say a Commando with ECM (its not supposed to have it, but whatever) (ECM 180m + Commando's small size increasing the lock on time by a certain percentage)

From there additional core mechanics could be looked at to balance other systems if changes described above actually happened (in the event it takes more time for additional things):

• Passive/Active Radar and ECM's combined use in either of those modes
  
• ECM having additional features such as blocking out Mech Target Information (while again not stopping a lock but instead stopping the enemy from seeing what weapons you carry, or other information like giving false readout of armor levels, etc. and so forth)
  
• Giving ECM the ability to place "Ghost Targets" (or blips) on radar to confuse opponents as they go to check out what they "thought" was someone having spotted an enemy

Then the whole issue with targeting itself:

• LRMs should only be able to be fired by LOS or with the aid of targeting equipment such as TAG/NARC (the caveat here is removing minimum range so LRMs are still useful as they are in the old games)

^ As often repeated and discussed, current targeting allows for anyone to fire at Mechs with LRMs they don't see as long as other friendlies are targeting and/or engaged (this is the missile rain issue)

• Additional equipment such as C3 Master's and C3I; allowed sharing of targeting information over a longer, daisy chained distance (but again does not mean "everyone can fire at this Mech with LRM now" - it would still require TAG/NARC, but C3 could allow for instance being able to fire your missiles beyond the maximum range if the enemy is tag/narced, and you happen to be a C3 Network - all of this requires not only space for such things, but also coordination).

• ECM can cut a C3 network in half -> C3 Master Mech <-> C3i Mech <-> *Enemy ECM Interruption* <-> C3i Mech (Last Mech no longer can obtain bonuses of network)

I had an old thread on this as well. I doubt any such enhancements like this would happen, but eh whatever. As it is this game's e-war aspect is severely lacking or simply non-existent.

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 July 2015 - 06:29 AM.

[Mitsuragi]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Cool I guess I will just bring 3 Hellbringers and a Shadow Cat to CW now.

Oh wait I'm in the IS. Damn...

Now it's 3 Cataphracts and a Spider. Got you covered bro

[SpiralFace]

coming late to the party on this thread, but I kinda feel like this was hitting the wrong stat.

The problem with ECM has ALWAYS been that it is a HARD binary piece of equipment.

Cutting the range still doesn't address the fact that ECM still becomes the 1.5 box that hard counters an entire weapon system and essentially gives you a personal stealth system that goes up to 200 meters, with additional effects hitting at 180 meters.

This is nuts.

NO ONE hardly even knows about the real "passive" effects like doubling missile lock time, reducing target info gather time, or target retention time.

No one knows about this because you can never target people in the first place. With sensor stealth that cloaks you for 75% of the targets total range making mechs need to target you within 200 meters, and additional effects kicking in with the bubble, this piece of equipment is still rediculously binary. Either you are in Sensor Stealth range, or you are in ECM range, and the actual ECM effects are HARDLY ever a factor due to how binary the system as a whole was.

I feel like hitting the "Sensor stealth" range to something a bit more manageable like 50% instead of keeping it at 75% was the way to go.

Don't want 2 ECM mechs covering 12 mechs now? Fine, All that is going to see is the dial swing to more ECM mech spam (because there are plenty of them now.) And use it as a personal jesus box rather then a group jesus box since it still remains a purely binary system with zero soft counterply, and still ALL the effects still in tact from before.

Not the worst thing that can happen, but honestly, not the way I would like to see this go. Still WAY too binary of a system.

[Devorum]

Good job buffing the everliving crap out of Streakcrows until other changes come in.

As if life didn't suck enough for light pilots right now...

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Tina Benoit, on 15 July 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Hello MechWarriors,

Please share your feedback on this thread regarding Paul's discussion on ECM changes.

ECM or not doesn't make a difference to me. How MM decides my game bothers me more

[The Boneshaman]

Not sure if this has been said no reading 18 pages. The system that is used to put together teams should look at how many ECM mechs are in the queue and divide them out. I don't know how many matches I been in where half the team has ECM and the other side has none. ECM in CW will need to be looked at to clans technically have more ECM mechs than IS with the Omni pods all Hellbringers chassis can have ECM all Kitfoxes have ECM. But only 1 Raven or Spider chassis has ECM.

[Slambot]

I'm a really big fan of the complete re-definition of what ECM does rather than worrying about the range at which its effective. I am a big fan of the table top and while its a good base, this game is a shooter and many of the tabletop mechanics simply do not transfer well.

Rather than preventing mech detection, the ecm should rather:

-prevent targeting information about weapons loadout damaged areas etc.
-increase targeting time for homing weapons
-reduce the accuracy of homing weapons
-send false positives on mech locations
-disrupt targeting information resulting in a slight blurring of the targeting reticule thereby reducing the accuracy of all weapons

Note: I'm not a proponent of ECM doing all of the items above. They are just ideas about what ECM could do to replace the 180m stealth system it is now.

ECM has always been way too powerful. I am more than curious about the re-visiting of the quirk system...

[Dawnstealer]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heres a suggestion to information warfare/fixing ECM
Give all mechs Seismic Sensor by default as a "Radar"

Almost all mechs equip the module seismic sensor. It has become the de facto Radar of Mechwarrior Online. (don't freak out. Think of this change as just Seismic Sensor with more integration into Role Warfare)
Summary of what changing seismic sensor to Radar will do for the game :

• Active/Passive Radar
  
• True to lore implementation of ECM. That doesn't break all missiles
  
• Visual/Missile Targeting is the ONLY mechanic of Information Warfare right now. This change will fix that
  
• True to lore implementation of whatever the hell radar tech you can think of
  
• Null Sig

And here is the how:



By actually having a Radar mechanic you are are able to implement features that are true to lore.
Meanwhile the Radar(seismic sensor) portion of the game is still kept separate from the Missile Lock/Visual Lock portion of the game. What this mean is:

#1 Just because you see mechs on your Radar(seismic sensor) doesn't mean you can lob LRMs at them. Just because you see them on Radar, doesn't mean you can have damage information on them. (A problem the developers sought to get rid of from the old game.)

#2 Lore ECM: Having a separate Radar and Missile targeting system means that ECM can have the Radar jamming portion of its function (invisible from Radar), without the missile targeting interference. I.E true to lore and does not break an entire 1/3 of the weapons.


#3 You can tune/adjust a mech's Radar capability without hindering its Missile/Visual Targeting ability. I.E if you lower the Missile Targeting range from 1000 you can no longer effectively use LRMS. Whereas if you lower the Radar radius there is no effect on viability of Missile weapons. Worried that giving light mechs 2x Visual/Missile Lock will wreck the game? Worry no more, giving light mechs 2x Radar range is fine and encouraged!

#4 Passive/Active Radar! Turn off your own Radar(Seismic Sensor), and other mechs will not see you on their Radar. This means mechs will still be able to sneak around, and have that stealth gameplay.



Heck, devs can add Null Sig if they wanted to if it no longer has functionality overlap with ECM. Miss your Sniper Raven? Slap that Null Sig onto a Rave, turn on Passive Radar and it works just like ECM does now without the broken umbrella.

Yeah, all of this right here.