945 replies to this topic

[Bellum Dominum]

Mockingbird42, on 16 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

This is absolutely terrible!

I really dont like this. Why? Because ECM is directy linked to the major "no skill needed kill the fun in this game for me" weapon system. Yes you guessed it: LRMS.

HINT: ECM has become the no skill required way of dealing with LRMs. Argument invalidates it's self.

[Dawnstealer]

The Basilisk, on 16 July 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

@ Paul:
Did you guys think about how much more ppl will be driven to pilot ECM carrying mechs to be competetive ?
At the moment it is one or two ECM capable Mechs per wave in CW.
With the ECM change you will have to carry at least ....absolutely minimum one per Lance.
Appart from the weight class limitations, leading to focus on certain Mechs like T-wub and the like the ECM change will lead you to Companys of Griffin 2N, ECM Cataphracts etc.

Did you thought that through ?

Edit:

I think that's the point. Imagine IS LRMs no longer being a useless joke. IS might even be able to mount a defense.

[Mockingbird42]

Death Drow, on 16 July 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

HINT: ECM has become the no skill required way of dealing with LRMs. Argument invalidates it's self.

Hint: You are so right : No skill weapon should be countered with no skill countermeasures

Thats what Im saying. So dont nerf ECM


Edit: This little discussion has already shown again why I dont post in forums usually. With all due respect, im not interested in discussing this with LRM Players/Fans.

This post is for PGI

Edited by Mockingbird42, 16 July 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Heart of Storm, on 16 July 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Meh, Speed has always been a lights best cover imo. Certain sniper builds of lights (Raven 3L) without jump jets benefit but most of the time staying in cover and sprinting behind a building makes LRMs easier to mitigate in a light then any other Mech frame.

As for Streaks, they're painful and everyone hates running into a Streakcrow with a light mech, the way i see it a Streakboat will get torn apart by any other mech in the game, so its a balance. If a Stormcrow pilot dedicates his whole build to light hunting he probably *should* be able to tear me apart in short order. Scouting and using the lights speed to pick your fights will always be the Light mechs best strategy, not relying on the Jesus Box™

Clan lights cannot do this as well.

[Bellum Dominum]

Mockingbird42, on 16 July 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hint: You are so right : No skill weapon should be countered with no skill countermeasures

Thats what Im saying. So dont nerf ECM

So take out both of the no skill situations don't keep them in play. Numbers of us have suggested it. Introduce C3 for shared targeting (would also put a damper on everyone running the current meta or at least in the case of meta mixed with lrm boats). Honestly LRM boating isn't no skill but the current target sharing situation I do agree gives LRM boats an advantage they shouldn't have. It actually gives the entire team advantages they shouldn't have. Part of my somewhat facetious post about the 'magic triangles' point. I can see them for targets under a UAV and for targets that are currently locked on by either yourself or part of the C3 system but not simply anything in front of you. Why even have trees in the game if they provide no cover?

Edited by Death Drow, 16 July 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Surn]

I believe this ecm quirk is a distraction to is players, who are about to be nerf bombed by quirk nukes. Clan have an enormous ecm advantage, to the point that their only requirement to win is to shoot down uav. But that is current meta, the quirk nerf will ensure clan mecha remain op.

[Wronka]

Seamus McKenna, on 16 July 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

I do not understand why every tiny thing in a game needs balancing though, nothing in war is ever balanced to be fair, it comes down to the soldiers actually fighting, and their ability to utilize their equipment to it's fullest.

I do not understand why if balancing is going to happen that it cannot be at levels of say 10% vs 50%.

I do not understand why there are quirks at all, it forces the meta.

You don't get why the game has to be balanced? The game is pushing for one side vs the other (CW) so if one side is overpowered, why would I who has the freedom to pick either side play for the weaker side? Balance is a must for this game to work.

And you do not understand why there are quirks? It is to achieve my point above. IS tech is simply worse, quirks are a must to make them competitive. Imagine where the IS would be today if they had 0 quirks. No1 would take them to play.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Black Ivan, on 16 July 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

Guardian ECM should follow the guidelines in TT rules. There is everytwritten down how it should behave, no magic jesus box. The change won't solve the ECM issue.

That's all well and good if you also redesign LRMS. LRMS are bad right now because they either don't work at all or are amazing depending upon if the enemy team brought ECM. ECM keeps LRM counts in check, so if you are going to change it's jamming abilities, either redesign LRMs or give us a null signature system.

[Devorum]

Mockingbird42, on 16 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Why is this -imho- so? Because 12-12 is too much mechs per team. Back when it was 8v8 i had so many games that where close and could be turned around quite often - if my memory doesnt fail me of course;

Look at it this way: Fun in games for me is having control and influence in the outcome! This should be obvious.

If you say now: "why should the number of mechs matter? Your team also has 12!", look at it from your personal influence to the outcome.
1v1 -all your fault or glory - total control
2v2 - if your teammate sucks and blows himself up at the start its only 1v2, theres a good chance you turn it around
3v3 - still only 1 v 3 a good player can do it. I believe in you!

You get the idea

8v8 seemed to have been a good spot.
12v12 not good.
(Imho giving a 8v8 option would increase the fun really much.)

I agree that 12v12 is awful. There's just too many players on the field. 8v8 was much more fun.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

TWIAFU, on 16 July 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

Simple solution, stay out of pug queue.

That's not a solution

If a significant number of PUGs leave it's going to hurt PGIs wallet, they aren't going to risk that purposefully.

[Ridir Semii]

Wronka, on 16 July 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

You don't get why the game has to be balanced? The game is pushing for one side vs the other (CW) so if one side is overpowered, why would I who has the freedom to pick either side play for the weaker side? Balance is a must for this game to work.

And you do not understand why there are quirks? It is to achieve my point above. IS tech is simply worse, quirks are a must to make them competitive. Imagine where the IS would be today if they had 0 quirks. No1 would take them to play.

correct, I do not understand why it needs balancing, is it so that less skilled players can compete, or is it to make them lazy because the game levels the abilities of us all, I run IS and Clan mechs and I have seen little to no difference in them when played properly (NOT following TT clan honor rules)

All quirking and nerfing does is force EVERY player to field the same BS mechs in every match, in order to be competitive and effective, that is a huge part of CW's failings as well as the pub queue...

I do not argue that the tech levels are vastly different, but I also know many people who don't give a damn about Clan being better and they prove it all the time (before the quirkening and since) No, your reasoning behind it all does not make sense, you are forcing me to play your game, vs the one I have fun playing, just so I can earn cbills and buy more stuff.

Sounds like I am being forced to choose a side, rather than being able to play the things I enjoy playing.... so if you cannot understand my points, then we have nothing more to say to one another, I will not start a new spam war on this thread simply because you think I am wrong

[Devorum]

Seamus McKenna, on 16 July 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

correct, I do not understand why it needs balancing, is it so that less skilled players can compete, or is it to make them lazy because the game levels the abilities of us all, I run IS and Clan mechs and I have seen little to no difference in them when played properly (NOT following TT clan honor rules)

All quirking and nerfing does is force EVERY player to field the same BS mechs in every match, in order to be competitive and effective, that is a huge part of CW's failings as well as the pub queue...

I do not argue that the tech levels are vastly different, but I also know many people who don't give a damn about Clan being better and they prove it all the time (before the quirkening and since) No, your reasoning behind it all does not make sense, you are forcing me to play your game, vs the one I have fun playing, just so I can earn cbills and buy more stuff.

Sounds like I am being forced to choose a side, rather than being able to play the things I enjoy playing.... so if you cannot understand my points, then we have nothing more to say to one another, I will not start a new spam war on this thread simply because you think I am wrong

I can't...what?

The very reason players, skilled or otherwise, can compete is because of game balancing. That's literally how competitive games work.

If you don't see a difference in Clan and IS technology, then I can only assume you're being willfully blind to it.

All other things being equal, including player skill, a Stormcrow will beat a Hunchback every time simply because its weapons can outrange the Hunchie, and its speed allows it to outmaneuver its opponent.

That's entire reason BV exists in the TT game.

Edited by Devorum, 16 July 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[TheSilken]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

To be honest...it's barely a change. It's still the Magic Jesus Box that combines gECM, aECM, Null Sig and some fairy dust thrown in for good measure.

Either remove those magical properties, or give it proper consequences. Null Sig generates 1 Heat per second, which won't stop you from cooling entirely (unless you have 10 SHS) but will significantly hamper your ability to shoot while under the Magic Jesus Field.

To stop the 1H/s penalty, swap from Disrupt to Counter.

Changing the range really isn't significant, but I guess it's a start...I hope the next iterations have a tad more impact.

All it needs now is the properties of the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, or better yet the Void Signature System.

Edited by TheSilken, 16 July 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Surn]

Quirks in themselves are ok, but it should be at the equipment level. Further, clan tech doesnt need to always be superior in every sense. Technological progress is sometimes about compatibilIty not performance or price. Take modern lightbulbs as an example..cfl are more efficieNt but not as good, plus they are hazardous Waste. Lcd are an improvement , but expensive and still inferiOr to incandescent in some ways. Further, an example of bureaucratic advancement, not driven by user requirements.

Edited by MechregSurn, 16 July 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[Luscious Dan]

Devorum, on 16 July 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I agree that 12v12 is awful. There's just too many players on the field. 8v8 was much more fun.

Or just have the maps dictate the number of players. 2 lances for smaller maps, 3 lances for bigger maps. I don't see this causing any issues for matchmaker, since you can't opt out of certain maps like you can opt out of game modes.

Anyway. I'd prefer a more subtle change to ECM range if it's an interim fix. Going from 180m to 90 is a big drop, maybe make it 120m for now.

I know that releasing the Shadow Cat and Arctic Cheetah will dramatically increase the ECM prevalence for a few weeks, but come on... I don't own the current ECM clan mechs so this is a bit of a kick in the nuts for me to nerf them as soon as I get access lol.

Edited by Luscious Dan, 16 July 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[Surn]

my previous post cuts to the fact that some older Tech is often more rugged and technically better at a certain task, but may not be omni compatible.

Edited by MechregSurn, 16 July 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[Luscious Dan]

Devorum, on 16 July 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

I can't...what?

The very reason players, skilled or otherwise, can compete is because of game balancing. That's literally how competitive games work.

If you don't see a difference in Clan and IS technology, then I can only assume you're being willfully blind to it.

All other things being equal, including player skill, a Stormcrow will beat a Hunchback every time simply because its weapons can outrange the Hunchie, and its speed allows it to outmaneuver its opponent.

That's entire reason BV exists in the TT game.

And presumably that's why they are looking at developing a BV-based system instead of just quirks.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Death Drow, on 16 July 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

Glad to see changes finally coming along but I agree with others that dropping it to 90 just isn't enough.

ECM providing cover for other mechs doesn't make sense to me anyways. Paul used the right words with 'magic bubble' and players end up yelling at their scout mechs to do the exact opposite of what a scout mech is supposed to be doing. The later has always annoyed me

LRMs are only complained about by players that either haven't played long enough or are too dependent on scouts not fulfilling their actual roll. AMS, Walls, Buildings, ETC = How LRMs are easily dealt with. LRM boats are destroyed by the team that works together and aggressively pushes onto them and that's without ECM or AMS even. If players started taking advantage of the ams hardpoint LRM boat role would be even harder to pull off.

BAP and CAP should only provide the target for the mech using it (unless there's a command computer on the team or the clan equivalent), and ECM should only 'stealth' the mech using it. EDIT: C3 system in play I should have said. I don't know why I always mix up the CC with C3. shrug

Honestly the current way that ECM, BAP, and CAP has been used is exploiting bad game mechanics (Not meaning any offense Dev Team just personal opinion).

What you are saying is all well and good so long as LRMs get reworked. Unfortunately, AMS is currently trash and walls and buildings are only usable as LRM cover on certain maps. Lock sharing is what leads to Lurmageddon, it doesn't need to be totally removed, but it needs to be nerfed with respect to LRMs. My proposed solution is to make ECM mechs immune to lock sharing, or at least immune to missile locks without direct LOS. (btw I'm in favor of making ECM a personal defense only, and in favor of buffing AMS.)

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 16 July 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Devorum]

Luscious Dan, on 16 July 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

Or just have the maps dictate the number of players. 2 lances for smaller maps, 3 lances for bigger maps. I don't see this causing any issues for matchmaker, since you can't opt out of certain maps like you can opt out of game modes.

Anyway. I'd prefer a more subtle change to ECM range if it's an interim fix. Going from 180m to 90 is a big drop, maybe make it 120m for now.

I know that releasing the Shadow Cat and Arctic Cheetah will dramatically increase the ECM prevalence for a few weeks, but come on... I don't own the current ECM clan mechs so this is a bit of a kick in the nuts for me to nerf them as soon as I get access lol.

I'd be completely OK with map size determining unit composition.

[Spleenslitta]

This seems very reasonable and i use the Kit Fox with ECM constantly. If you go with 60 meter radius or even lower i wouldn't be worried at all.
You could even go so far that ECM only counts for the mech equipped with it and i'd be totally fine with it.

As things are right now if a team has 1 ECM mech that mech becomes the babysitter of the team automaticly. Especially if it is a fast mech.
If that ECM mech player goes lone ranger the team hurls profanity at the player like he has commited some kind of crime or teamtreason.
I've been there.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 16 July 2015 - 09:28 AM.