945 replies to this topic

[Spleenslitta]

This seems very reasonable and i use the Kit Fox with ECM constantly. If you go with 60 meter radius or even lower i wouldn't be worried at all.
You could even go so far that ECM only counts for the mech equipped with it and i'd be totally fine with it.

As things are right now if a team has 1 ECM mech that mech becomes the babysitter of the team automaticly. Especially if it is a fast mech.
If that ECM mech player goes lone ranger the team hurls profanity at the player like he has commited some kind of crime or teamtreason.
I've been there.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 16 July 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Death Drow, on 16 July 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

HINT: ECM has become the no skill required way of dealing with LRMs. Argument invalidates it's self.

'Not saying I agree with him the LRMs take no skill. But weapons that don't require any gunnery skills should have a counter that doesn't require any dodging skills. LRM skills are about strategy and tactics for exposing an enemy to missile fire.

[Sir Crazy]

I like the sound of the ECM range change. It's a good starting point. I want to see how it works out in game.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Here's more of my two cents. So long as LRMs have free access to indirect lock ons, they undoubtedly operate much more in the realm of information warfare weapons than typical gunnery skill based weapons. Now, so long as LRMs are an information warfare weapon, their counter also needs to be information warfare based. I agree that ECM is currently too potent, but it still needs to have significant LRM jamming abilities after nerfs occur, it's only fair.

[Bellum Dominum]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

'Not saying I agree with him the LRMs take no skill. But weapons that don't require any gunnery skills should have a counter that doesn't require any dodging skills. LRM skills are about strategy and tactics for exposing an enemy to missile fire.

They still take gunnery skills just different than gauss, just like gauss takes different than sm pulse lasers. As you said strategy, tactics, are such but they are shared by all weapons. More launch location, when to fire them, to use them for suppression or not, etc. I agree they are far from 'no skill' just a different skill set than point and shoot. With target sharing as it is in game they are stronger/might say easier than they should be but dodging is exactly one of the counters that should be used against them just like it should be used against any other weapon system. (I guess you could say this is all mostly symantics but I think we are both on the same page.)

[Bellum Dominum]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

What you are saying is all well and good so long as LRMs get reworked. Unfortunately, AMS is currently trash and walls and buildings are only usable as LRM cover on certain maps. Lock sharing is what leads to Lurmageddon, it doesn't need to be totally removed, but it needs to be nerfed with respect to LRMs. My proposed solution is to make ECM mechs immune to lock sharing, or at least immune to missile locks without direct LOS. (btw I'm in favor of making ECM a personal defense only, and in favor of buffing AMS.)

I don't think ams is trash. I mean if I run my support kitfox, 3xAms with Ams modules, I can nearly shutdown enemy lrms by myself. AMS is highly under used in game unfortunately. Ever ran an lrm boat and had an enemy team with a lot of mechs with AMS? It's been a long time since I've seen AMS used by a lot of mechs on an enemy team I'll grant you but it's an lrm boats nightmare when it is.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Death Drow, on 16 July 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

I don't think ams is trash. I mean if I run my support kitfox, 3xAms with Ams modules, I can nearly shutdown enemy lrms by myself. AMS is highly under used in game unfortunately. Ever ran an lrm boat and had an enemy team with a lot of mechs with AMS? It's been a long time since I've seen AMS used by a lot of mechs on an enemy team I'll grant you but it's an lrm boats nightmare when it is.

Problem with AMS is that most AMS mechs can't protect themselves from LRMs without team AMS support. You can't count on PUGs to bring AMS

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 16 July 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Problem with AMS is that most AMS mechs can't protect themselves from LRMs without team AMS support. You can't count on PUGs to bring AMS

That's not a problem with AMS it's a problem with the player base refusing to run AMS. Devs can't be expected to compensate for that. 1 AMS vs 1 LRM launcher works really well but you are right that 1 AMS vs 5 LRM launchers just doesn't do the trick. Answer = more people need to learn to run AMS.

[Tom Sawyer]

Balance ECM so its not the magic box

Make it so that only mechs carrying a command module or targeting computer can share lock data with the lrm boats in the rear

TAG and BAP need tinkering

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Death Drow, on 16 July 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

That's not a problem with AMS it's a problem with the player base refusing to run AMS. Devs can't be expected to compensate for that. 1 AMS vs 1 LRM launcher works really well but you are right that 1 AMS vs 5 LRM launchers just doesn't do the trick. Answer = more people need to learn to run AMS.

Or LRMs need to have their Indirect locks impeded by ECM. That way I cannot stand in the open and brush them off like I shouldn't be able to do but, I don't have to face inevitable death at the hands of simple PUG weapon choice.

[Pjwned]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Here's more of my two cents. So long as LRMs have free access to indirect lock ons, they undoubtedly operate much more in the realm of information warfare weapons than typical gunnery skill based weapons. Now, so long as LRMs are an information warfare weapon, their counter also needs to be information warfare based. I agree that ECM is currently too potent, but it still needs to have significant LRM jamming abilities after nerfs occur, it's only fair.

It can do that by hampering locks to an extent, not completely preventing them and defeating a rather large point of bringing LRMs in the first place over other better weapons.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Or LRMs need to have their Indirect locks impeded by ECM. That way I cannot stand in the open and brush them off like I shouldn't be able to do but, I don't have to face inevitable death at the hands of simple PUG weapon choice.

Sure, as long as ECM doesn't prevent locks and it doesn't impede locks to ridiculous degree then that's reasonable enough even if that's still more than it should do.

Edited by Pjwned, 16 July 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Bellum Dominum]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Or LRMs need to have their Indirect locks impeded by ECM. That way I cannot stand in the open and brush them off like I shouldn't be able to do but, I don't have to face inevitable death at the hands of simple PUG weapon choice.

Well I think the shared lock problem solves that better than nerfing scout mechs into a role that isn't at all what they are supposed to be doing and making ECM more powerful than it should be. Don't forget that this magic bubble of ecm also hinders direct fire weapons as it can make getting target info next to impossible so fire placement is hosed. I'm really surprised that the direct fire only players don't scream about that more but I can see how their focus would be on the problem with free shared lock for lrms. I like the idea of making it so the 'shared lock' doesn't affect lrm weapons unless the C3 system is in play.

EDIT: Seeing as there is no C3 I hope that they'll add it at the same time as removing free shared lock should they decide to make that move.

Edited by Death Drow, 16 July 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Death Drow, on 16 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Well I think the shared lock problem solves that better than nerfing scout mechs into a role that isn't at all what they are supposed to be doing and making ECM more powerful than it should be. Don't forget that this magic bubble of ecm also hinders direct fire weapons as it can make getting target info next to impossible so fire placement is hosed. I'm really surprised that the direct fire only players don't scream about that more but I can see how their focus would be on the problem with free shared lock for lrms. I like the idea of making it so the 'shared lock' doesn't affect lrm weapons unless the C3 system is in play.

EDIT: Seeing as there is no C3 I hope that they'll add it at the same time as removing free shared lock should they decide to make that move.

Sounds fair to me. I'm also an advocate for ECM only applying to the equipped mech.

Pjwned, on 16 July 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

It can do that by hampering locks to an extent, not completely preventing them and defeating a rather large point of bringing LRMs in the first place over other better weapons.



Sure, as long as ECM doesn't prevent locks and it doesn't impede locks to ridiculous degree then that's reasonable enough even if that's still more than it should do.

Shielding a single mech from indirect locks is not completely nullifying the advantage of LRMs IMO.

[Pjwned]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 16 July 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Sounds fair to me. I'm also an advocate for ECM only applying to the equipped mech.

Agreed, if mechs want an ECM bubble they can equip Angel ECM when that is also added.

Quote

Shielding a single mech from indirect locks is not completely nullifying the advantage of LRMs IMO.

It doesn't do that because LRMs do have other advantages, but indirect fire is obviously a big reason to bother using LRMs and preventing locks with ECM at low cost is still too powerful.

[Bellum Dominum]

Pjwned, on 16 July 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

It doesn't do that because LRMs do have other advantages, but indirect fire is obviously a big reason to bother using LRMs and preventing locks with ECM at low cost is still too powerful.

Yet more of a reason for the player base to learn to make use of their AMS hard points. Getting rid of this magic bubble might actually cause that to happen and AMS really is a much better response than ECM anyways with tag, narc, uav already in the game.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Pjwned, on 16 July 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

It doesn't do that because LRMs do have other advantages, but indirect fire is obviously a big reason to bother using LRMs and preventing locks with ECM at low cost is still too powerful.

But it's only preventing that lock on one mech so long as the LRM user doesn't have line of sight. The LRM mech shouldn't even be bothered, he can still indirect lock on plenty of targets, and direct lock on ALL targets, it seems plenty fair to me.

I can't discuss this any further until after work unfortunately; ttyl all.

[MCchum]

it use to be in other MW games ,, BAP countered ECM and BAP was only on special mechs just like ECM mechs , so mechs capable of carrying BAP was a must ,, is why u always seen 1 or 2 ravens on the battlefield , was only mech capable of carrying both .. Also , pilots was able to reduce radar range , from 500m to 250m .. only way to shut off radar was by powering down the mech . ecm only covered the area of 500m to 250 .. any mech within the 250m range was able to see all mechs within that range , ECM did not cover that range ..
Is why u seen 1 mech with radar on and right behind it was 1 or 2 with radar in reduced radar range..
at times the battlefield would be popping red triangles because of radar gone from reduced to full range and back again ,,
is only time u knew u was now surrounded and it didn't look good

[Dawnstealer]

Mockingbird42, on 16 July 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

This is absolutely terrible!

I really dont like this. Why? Because ECM is directy linked to the major "no skill needed kill the fun in this game for me" weapon system. Yes you guessed it: LRMS.

Yes, and ECM is the very PINNACLE of a skill weapon. People train for DECADES to install that on their mech and then become invincible to missile fire for the match...

[-Ramrod-]

So many clan ECM mechs out and coming out. LRM's are useless against clans in CW. Direct fire is even more pointless.

[IanDresarie]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heres a suggestion to information warfare/fixing ECM
Give all mechs Seismic Sensor by default as a "Radar"

Almost all mechs equip the module seismic sensor. It has become the de facto Radar of Mechwarrior Online. (don't freak out. Think of this change as just Seismic Sensor with more integration into Role Warfare)
Summary of what changing seismic sensor to Radar will do for the game :

• Active/Passive Radar
  
• True to lore implementation of ECM. That doesn't break all missiles
  
• Visual/Missile Targeting is the ONLY mechanic of Information Warfare right now. This change will fix that
  
• True to lore implementation of whatever the hell radar tech you can think of
  
• Null Sig

And here is the how:



By actually having a Radar mechanic you are are able to implement features that are true to lore.
Meanwhile the Radar(seismic sensor) portion of the game is still kept separate from the Missile Lock/Visual Lock portion of the game. What this mean is:

#1 Just because you see mechs on your Radar(seismic sensor) doesn't mean you can lob LRMs at them. Just because you see them on Radar, doesn't mean you can have damage information on them. (A problem the developers sought to get rid of from the old game.)

#2 Lore ECM: Having a separate Radar and Missile targeting system means that ECM can have the Radar jamming portion of its function (invisible from Radar), without the missile targeting interference. I.E true to lore and does not break an entire 1/3 of the weapons.


#3 You can tune/adjust a mech's Radar capability without hindering its Missile/Visual Targeting ability. I.E if you lower the Missile Targeting range from 1000 you can no longer effectively use LRMS. Whereas if you lower the Radar radius there is no effect on viability of Missile weapons. Worried that giving light mechs 2x Visual/Missile Lock will wreck the game? Worry no more, giving light mechs 2x Radar range is fine and encouraged!

#4 Passive/Active Radar! Turn off your own Radar(Seismic Sensor), and other mechs will not see you on their Radar. This means mechs will still be able to sneak around, and have that stealth gameplay.



Heck, devs can add Null Sig if they wanted to if it no longer has functionality overlap with ECM. Miss your Sniper Raven? Slap that Null Sig onto a Rave, turn on Passive Radar and it works just like ECM does now without the broken umbrella.

+1