73 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

I merely have one question hypothetical of course

How can we have role warfare in MWO when within 20-30 seconds the slowest assault mech can literally see one of the enemy?

Even the Revamped River City which is aesthetically nice and kudos for the work put into it, but it did not solve one of the core problems

These maps are to damn small for 12v12 with the exception of Terra Therma, that is about the only map that you really do need a scout.

Further more until they change the way LoS and Radar detection work so a Locust does not give off the same damn signal that a 100 ton mech does... Sorry I just see Role Warfare and I laugh at it. To put it into the game as it was originally designed would be a massive overhaul to key systems. I am, IMHO, opinion afraid of the band **** they are going to bring out to try to bring us role warfare now 3 years later.

EDIT referring to his 2nd to last paragraph

Quote

The changes in role and information warfare will help us distinguish roles in a more defined manner and further separating the reasons to bring multiple weight classes to the battlefield and will also help control any type of arms race as new technologies are brought into the game.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 16 July 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Role warfare in this game is a joke. MWO is nothing more then, Grab the biggest mech with the most above the head high energy hardpoints, slap in as many MPL/LPL as you can, put them all in 1 fire group and shoot till you die. Its almost as boring as World of Warships.....

This game has no depth, no strategy, no skill....its just walk forward, and hope the enemy doesnt fire at YOU first.....then, when you see the enemy, hope enough of your own team is looking at him and that your team's alphas are deadlier and more numerous then the enemy alphas......walk around in 1 big ball of mechs for mutual protection from the alphas and that is MWO.

Its like playing a First person version of Mechcommander, but without any objectives, loot, pilot skill increases, salvage or any of the depth that game had.



Besides, do remember the ones who said Role Warfare was Smith and Tinker....not PGI. Had Smith and Tinker made MWO, it would be a much better game. I guess SnT is now Harebrained...or Jordan Weismann anyway.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 15 July 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[aniviron]

Scouting will never be meaningful unless there is uncertainty about which way your enemies have gone. The maps we have now, even in CW, are simply not big enough, or more to the point, open enough, for that to be the case. I get just as many 'scouting' bonuses in my King Crab as my Mist Lynx because I always know where the enemies are going to be anyway.

[ScreamingSkull]

The map sizes are fine for what the game currently is. If we had a Planetside 2 sized map with multiple unit types and massive zones it'd be a different story, but as it is, the lack of field tactics are from the contrived nature of combat in this game. Not because of map size.

[Darian DelFord]

ScreamingSkull, on 15 July 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

The map sizes are fine for what the game currently is. If we had a Planetside 2 sized map with multiple unit types and massive zones it'd be a different story, but as it is, the lack of field tactics are from the contrived nature of combat in this game. Not because of map size.

Map sizes are not fine when you are only carrying 6.6 tons of armor I am sorry to say. Map sizes need to be be made bigger and the spawns considerably spread out. It's way to predicatble, you do not even need scouts on all but one of the maps

[FlipOver]

I've been saying this for a loooong time.

The maps we have today range between small and smaller.

The size of maps like the old RC or Caustic or any other of the earlier maps are good if you play 4v4, but too small for 8v8 or 12v12.

All of those maps need to be larger but then we get to maps like Canyon Network or Alpine or any of the other ones. They all need to be larger too if we want a 12v12 match to really need scouting and strategy.

As they are now, it's too easy to predict the enemies movements due to lack of options on their part, since they don't have many places to go... It's also possible to have LoS on the enemy in less than 20 secs into the game... and that, I'm sorry to say, breaks all the immersion one might try to get from a military strategy game.

[stealthraccoon]

Darian DelFord, on 15 July 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

Further more until they change the way LoS and Radar detection work so a Locust does not give off the same damn signal that a 100 ton mech does...

THIS ^^^

I think the tonnage, engine size, heat and speed should be a factor in detection - a Locust standing still and not in combat should be very difficult to detect with sensors (even an Urbie with a tiny fusion engine should get some kind of detection bonuses, since it's little nuclear pulse is so friggin weak!). Counter to that, a Wolverine raging at over 106 KPH, or a Banshee with it's 400 engine full-throttle, in heat override mode should be lit up like Donald Trumps Christmas tree on any mech sensors within 1000 meters.

Edited by stealthraccoon, 15 July 2015 - 09:05 PM.

[El Bandito]

At least change the reward system so "Scouting", "Flanking", "TAG", "NARC", "Protected Light" bonuses are worth risking life and limb for. Then we will see more Lights.

Same thing for AMS. If people wants instant gratification in order to mount them, give AMS C-Bill bonus per missile shot down.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 July 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FlipOver, on 15 July 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

I've been saying this for a loooong time.

The maps we have today range between small and smaller.

The size of maps like the old RC or Caustic or any other of the earlier maps are good if you play 4v4, but too small for 8v8 or 12v12.

All of those maps need to be larger but then we get to maps like Canyon Network or Alpine or any of the other ones. They all need to be larger too if we want a 12v12 match to really need scouting and strategy.

As they are now, it's too easy to predict the enemies movements due to lack of options on their part, since they don't have many places to go... It's also possible to have LoS on the enemy in less than 20 secs into the game... and that, I'm sorry to say, breaks all the immersion one might try to get from a military strategy game.

As does 1 shot lolphas taking you outta the game, despite being in a massive heavily armored robot.

[FlipOver]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 July 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

As does 1 shot lolphas taking you outta the game, despite being in a massive heavily armored robot.

That's sooooo debatable...
Small maps break immersion and I'll just stick to that instead of going around this subject...

[El Bandito]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 July 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

As does 1 shot lolphas taking you outta the game, despite being in a massive heavily armored robot.

If it was a Dual Gauss shot, then I congratulate the enemy. If it was due to some lucky random Arty Strike took you out from 100% head armor, then that's pure BS.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

If it was a Dual Gauss shot, then I congratulate the enemy. If it was due to some lucky random Arty Strike took you out from 100% head armor, then that's pure BS.

Oh, I mean the mass laser vomit. If the 1 shots were something as rare as a Gauss Shot to the head or Arty strike and only about that rare, then I think this game would be in a much better place overall. BUt just about evvery mech and thier 40-60+ alphas.......

[Davegt27]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 July 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Role warfare in this game is a joke. MWO is nothing more then, Grab the biggest mech with the most above the head high energy hardpoints, slap in as many MPL/LPL as you can, put them all in 1 fire group and shoot till you die. Its almost as boring as World of Warships.....

This game has no depth, no strategy, no skill....its just walk forward, and hope the enemy doesnt fire at YOU first.....then, when you see the enemy, hope enough of your own team is looking at him and that your team's alphas are deadlier and more numerous then the enemy alphas......walk around in 1 big ball of mechs for mutual protection from the alphas and that is MWO.

Its like playing a First person version of Mechcommander, but without any objectives, loot, pilot skill increases, salvage or any of the depth that game had.



Besides, do remember the ones who said Role Warfare was Smith and Tinker....not PGI. Had Smith and Tinker made MWO, it would be a much better game. I guess SnT is now Harebrained...or Jordan Weismann anyway.

Wow that is a pretty scathing review

This is my first on line game so I really don’t know what to say, maybe give me some examples of games you think are great?

I do know the look and feel of MWO is great if you watch it on you tube you say --I got to try this game

I am still playing it after a year so that gives it pretty high marks
Of the games I played in the past 10 years (which is not many) this is number 1 or 2

Need some examples of role warfare games so I can get on the same page

[El Bandito]

Davegt27, on 15 July 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Need some examples of role warfare games so I can get on the same page

Team Fortress 2. Scout captures objectives, Heavy face-tanks, Medic heals Heavy so he can face-tank better, Sniper removes Medic so Heavy can't face-tank as well, Engineer defends key places, Spy destroys Engineer's nest, Pyro checks for Spy, Soldier brings Death from Above, Demoman brings Death from Around the Corner.

The maps are optimally designed for objectives, and it is the objectives that will win you the game, not kills.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 July 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

Oh, I mean the mass laser vomit. If the 1 shots were something as rare as a Gauss Shot to the head or Arty strike and only about that rare, then I think this game would be in a much better place overall. BUt just about evvery mech and thier 40-60+ alphas.......

Alphas is a major issue as well, I still like the charge up idea that was given a long time ago. So many things need to be tweak to make role warfare happens I wonder if PGI even knows half of them.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Davegt27, on 15 July 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Need some examples of role warfare games so I can get on the same page

Battlefield 2's Project Reality mod requires some pretty tight teamwork in order to win. Tanks alone die pretty easy to rockets, infantry alone die fairly easy. Even PVE was a load of fun, annoying and hard at the same time. Best times were when I would get in with a squad or 2 using teamspeak and we coordinated our way to victory. Fun mod.

Men of War, that game requires some nice combined arms to win as well. Leave a Heavy tank all solo w/o infantry it gets wasted. Likewise, if you dont have any AT ability on your infantry, a single vehicle will tear your infantry to bits. BUt properly support one another and they both are monsters in thier own right. No single tool is a P2W item. Some are powerful, but everything can be killed, even the mightiest of German tanks die if played wrong. Also, MOW, the Tanks alone cannot spot anything, likewise, the Infantry alone can do it, but have a harder time dealing with a tank. But, a tank unsupported can be killed by a well controlled infantry unit. Men of War might be the one game that really has Role Warfare and combined arms to win in it. No single piece rules the day.

Id say Planetside 2, but idk, game seems to just be a zerg fest, almost like MWO, just on a MUCH larger scale, since fights can consist of hundreds of players in one area of the map.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Well, until we get multiple objectives in a game that require players to do something other than kill each other (like actually focus on taking over territory, defending it, performing escorts, moving away from "timed" and matchmade matches, yada yada...), we aren't going to have much outside of what we have already. Any change is really only going to slightly alter how people kill and die.
Role/information warfare is just a fancy way to talk about quirks and ecm/targeting.

A lot has to change before those words have big meaning and players are actually investing and dedicating themselves to carry out specific roles.

But hey, I'm all for seeing passive radar so that mechs can actually choose to be stealthy and feel like they can actually do something else in the game rather than being spotted and singled out, or blobbing up with the rest of the team.

[Light-Speed]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 July 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Role warfare in this game is a joke. MWO is nothing more then, Grab the biggest mech with the most above the head high energy hardpoints, slap in as many MPL/LPL as you can, put them all in 1 fire group and shoot till you die. Its almost as boring as World of Warships.....

This game has no depth, no strategy, no skill....its just walk forward, and hope the enemy doesnt fire at YOU first.....then, when you see the enemy, hope enough of your own team is looking at him and that your team's alphas are deadlier and more numerous then the enemy alphas......walk around in 1 big ball of mechs for mutual protection from the alphas and that is MWO.

Its like playing a First person version of Mechcommander, but without any objectives, loot, pilot skill increases, salvage or any of the depth that game had.


Besides, do remember the ones who said Role Warfare was Smith and Tinker....not PGI. Had Smith and Tinker made MWO, it would be a much better game. I guess SnT is now Harebrained...or Jordan Weismann anyway.

*Person who never wore a shirt before wears plain white T-shirt*
*Friend asks him on his thoughts on shirts*
"Shirts are horrible. Look at this, no color no decoration feels terrible and itchy. Really hate it, when does the next trend of clothing come out?"



So I happen to take 2 Thundys out for a run yesterday, with one being MPL spam and the other a LPL build which was implied by you to be the best ways to roll.

Damn, I almost fainted from boredom. How do you guys last in those things?



It's really comes down to your fault that you play such a boring-ass role. That kind of matches is exactly why I don't play heavy/assaults unless its firepower is high enough to raise my eyebrows.



My theory: since tactical flexibility is something that fatasses doesn't possess much of so you got to push thorough with a strong strategic/tactical situation, but with pug queue's command and communications mostly screwed... eh.

How can you compare it to Mechcommander if there is either no commander or a crap one?

It especially comes down to luck because in pug queue for SOME REASON you know the enemies' builds better than your teams, so you can't really come up with a plan that would suit the team's need for sure. So it falls down to personal performance... and hope that your team does the same.

I've always favored having lots of tactical options being open to me, so lights it is. And if that doesn't sound interesting at first glance, I get to be scout, squirrel, and assassin instead of the average gunholder. At least I can make a bigger impact.
So, maybe explore a little before you complain?...

p.s. any criticism is invited, just don't cross over to rudeness.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Nightingale27, on 16 July 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

*Person who never wore a shirt before wears plain white T-shirt*
*Friend asks him on his thoughts on shirts*
"Shirts are horrible. Look at this, no color no decoration feels terrible and itchy. Really hate it, when does the next trend of clothing come out?"



So I happen to take 2 Thundys out for a run yesterday, with one being MPL spam and the other a LPL build which was implied by you to be the best ways to roll.

Damn, I almost fainted from boredom. How do you guys last in those things?



It's really comes down to your fault that you play such a boring-ass role. That kind of matches is exactly why I don't play heavy/assaults unless its firepower is high enough to raise my eyebrows.



My theory: since tactical flexibility is something that fatasses doesn't possess much of so you got to push thorough with a strong strategic/tactical situation, but with pug queue's command and communications mostly screwed... eh.

How can you compare it to Mechcommander if there is either no commander or a crap one?

It especially comes down to luck because in pug queue for SOME REASON you know the enemies' builds better than your teams, so you can't really come up with a plan that would suit the team's need for sure. So it falls down to personal performance... and hope that your team does the same.

I've always favored having lots of tactical options being open to me, so lights it is. And if that doesn't sound interesting at first glance, I get to be scout, squirrel, and assassin instead of the average gunholder. At least I can make a bigger impact.
So, maybe explore a little before you complain?...

p.s. any criticism is invited, just don't cross over to rudeness.

I dont run meta mechs. Ofc, I have a hard time building any other builds I would dare take into a game. I mainly run my WHK, it had 4x LPL on it, since, well, that is an insanely effective build, chain fire, dual fire, idk, it racked me up a number of kills and some nice damage numbers 600-800, 2-4 kills....it worked well. But now ive been running 4x CERPPC Warhawk simply because I like the WHK with its 4x CERPPC. ITs been working better since the buff.

I wont lie, I find the all laser meta boring as **** to. Its why I for one, dont play this game much, as I find its style boring overall, just alpha all the lasers, and its hard to come up with a build that is non laser vomit that would be decent at all. SRMs and LRMs in general are kinda crap, cannons, esp CUAC, I think are meh, aside form the DWF AC boat. PPC, on any mech but a WHK, or something with nice speed quirks is meh....

Plus, with the alphas, its hard to run anything but an assault, since they atleast might survive 1 alpha. Took my HBR out in a CW match, itgot face planted in like 3 blasts from a 6LL Stalker. Arm gone, CT stripped, other torso stripped....SCR, despite everyone claiming its so durable, I find it to get killed real quick. WHK, ive had it take a fe hits, but lately, even with twisting and moving, it just melts.....no amount of twisting or anything will make it live. Plus, with the way heat vs sustainable output is, once the enemy has you in thier sights, nothing you do will let you get away. Then with high ass alphas, your just dead.

Im bad with lights, and with the way alphas are, lights melt in sseconds. Even ive gob smacked a number of them. Plain and simple, this game needs to start addressing the TTK.....

Role Warfare basically CANT happen, any attempts to do anything but deathball is met with swift death.....I watch the maps in pug games. When my team splits up into groups of 2-3, 3 or 4, the game is assuredly a wipe...and it is. THe team that deathballs wins.....and yeah, takes alot of brain power to sit in a ball and shoot.......this game is just boring.

CW is a tunnel, defenders sit on the other side of the wall and shoot.....the defender that doesnt deathball loses, the defender that does wins. The attackers only win if the defenders dont deathball and decide to emply some kind of alternate strategy. THe only strat is deathball.....then melt anyone who dares poke out to shoot. Lasers do that best since they are light, small, plentiful and give great heat/dmg.

[Joseph Mallan]

FlipOver, on 15 July 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

I've been saying this for a loooong time.

The maps we have today range between small and smaller.

The size of maps like the old RC or Caustic or any other of the earlier maps are good if you play 4v4, but too small for 8v8 or 12v12.

All of those maps need to be larger but then we get to maps like Canyon Network or Alpine or any of the other ones. They all need to be larger too if we want a 12v12 match to really need scouting and strategy.

As they are now, it's too easy to predict the enemies movements due to lack of options on their part, since they don't have many places to go... It's also possible to have LoS on the enemy in less than 20 secs into the game... and that, I'm sorry to say, breaks all the immersion one might try to get from a military strategy game.

IFF transponders???