69 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 July 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

NO.

God! people either cant read, dont know how things work or are just dumb.

Pauls post is a NERF for streaks.

The size of the ECM bubble has literally zero bearing on the range a BAP equipped mech can lock it, that is entirely down to the range of the BAP to cancel the ECM. If BAPs range is reduced alongside the friendly bubble size and no other changes are made, Streaks will no longer be able to lock at the same range they can now.

But if you follow the PGIsms to the conclusion Current BAP is 240m to allow lock ons for mechs with 180m ECM, which is 60m further than the ECM. So if ECM goes to 90m then BAP should go to 150m for a net result in No change whatsoever to the effectiveness of BAP for streak boats.

[KHETTI]

ECM needs to work in two modes, offensive and defensive modes.
Offensive mode is exactly what disrupt mode is, except in reality the offensive bubble is much larger and would disrupt Tag.
Defensive mode is basically what Mechwarrior 3 had in place, a target circle bouncing around rapidly inside the target box, this mode only affects the ecm unit.

[Jack Corban]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Streaks recycle the mechanic from LRMs.
Its a lock on, and its a 1 button press sort of deal

Streak lock should be redone completely

I for one would like to see streaks only be fireable when you have a chroshair on a target in weapon range but from then on out you have to guide them with your crosshair as good as you can to hit the target. So like a cable controled AT missile.

[CrushLibs]

streaks sucks anyways

too much spread I will take my SRM over SSRM anyday in a fight

[Widowmaker1981]

Lugh, on 16 July 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

But if you follow the PGIsms to the conclusion Current BAP is 240m to allow lock ons for mechs with 180m ECM, which is 60m further than the ECM. So if ECM goes to 90m then BAP should go to 150m for a net result in No change whatsoever to the effectiveness of BAP for streak boats.

NO.

Not no change. They go from being able to shoot at 240m to being able to shoot at 150m. That is, in fact, a decrease in effectiveness. The ECM mech is not losing anything in this exchange whatsoever, because the only ones who are losing are the teammates between 91m and 180m away from him who are no longer in his bubble.

if we are talking clan streaks, they could shoot him at 396m if he had no ECM, the ability for ECM to cause the no signal effect is very much secondary here. Its the dorito denial at longer distances

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 July 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

It's a start. But make sure the Clan versions weighs the same, cause they always have lighter and better equipments than the IS.

I can usually afford to fit cap on a mech easier than BAP. It is the second slot that makes or breaks the build using BAP on IS mechs.

[Midax]

Both SRMs and LRMs should be reticule tracking. SSRMs should lock on to a location, but have a spread so the missiles don't hit more than half their missiles there. SRMs and CLRM should be ripple fire. IS LRMS would keep the tube system. Indirect LRM fire should only work when you have TAG or NARC spotting. Missile speeds should be buffed to at least AC 5 speed. Artemis should reduce spread and increase turn rate. Indirect fire from LRMs without lock would require skill or luck to pull off.

[WatDo]

I hated the fact that teams sat under ECM all match long before brawls broke out.

BUT

Breaking ECM and making it more in line with tabletop isn't the answer, since ECM is the only decent counter to LRM spam we have in-game, outside of sitting behind a friggin' rock.

Just watch, when they change ECM, LRM "users" will have a field day while everyone else hides even harder than before. SSRM's should be the least of your concerns.

[Midax]

WatDo, on 16 July 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

I hated the fact that teams sat under ECM all match long before brawls broke out.

BUT

Breaking ECM and making it more in line with tabletop isn't the answer, since ECM is the only decent counter to LRM spam we have in-game, outside of sitting behind a friggin' rock.

Just watch, when they change ECM, LRM "users" will have a field day while everyone else hides even harder than before. SSRM's should be the least of your concerns.

That is why LRMs need to be changed. They should trade well with AC and PPC in LOS and be subject to strict limitations in indirect fire.

[Chuck Jager]

Midax, on 16 July 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

That is why LRMs need to be changed. They should trade well with AC and PPC in LOS and be subject to strict limitations in indirect fire.

Indirect fire is to easy of a trap for lower skilled players and MM has a pretty wide range of skills to pull from. Anything that helps alleviate the tension players at both end of the skill set encounter is better. Indirect fire has to little risk for the reward (0 risk means any reward is good). While direct/los fire is the opposite. When I have target decay and artemis and/or tag I can make my lrms work well, but newer players do not know or can afford this. If we could make the baseline for lrms what target decay and artemis do now while nerfing indirect fire this could help, but the radar derp folks may not be happy.

[Weeny Machine]

WatDo, on 16 July 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

I hated the fact that teams sat under ECM all match long before brawls broke out.

BUT

Breaking ECM and making it more in line with tabletop isn't the answer, since ECM is the only decent counter to LRM spam we have in-game, outside of sitting behind a friggin' rock.

Just watch, when they change ECM, LRM "users" will have a field day while everyone else hides even harder than before. SSRM's should be the least of your concerns.

And that's exactly the problem. In the hands of an experienced rather skilled players LRMs become a nasty supression weapon.
The many ECM mechs help to alleviate the broken lock mechanic of LRMs - however, bring a new set of problems of their own.

Both mechanics need to be re-worked quickly. The 90m reduction won't do jack

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Perhaps the indirect buff to ssrms (and lrms) will get more people bringing ams which might cut down on the alpha they can bring and thus increase ttk slightly...

probably not lol, I almost never take ams

Edited by Rizzelbizzeg, 16 July 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

The problem with indirect LRM fire is that the game doesn't model it accurately. The spotter (ie: role warfare) is the one who designates a target (or more accurately, an area) for the LRM barrage. The indirect LRM barrage acts more like artillery because it's unguided. That's part of what the C3 system was for. Instead we have C3 innately which completely negates some of the major utility of recon units.

To be fair, no MW title has accurately modeled LRMs.


The whole information warfare system is completely borked and needs to be reworked. Until then, LRMs will never be what they should be.

Edited by ShadowWolf Kell, 16 July 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Lugh]

CrushLibs, on 16 July 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

streaks sucks anyways

too much spread I will take my SRM over SSRM anyday in a fight

Not me, I like being able to roll laser damage and still be firing volleys of missles at the guy I have targeted. Takes some skill but leads to 6+ kill 700-800Damage games (in a Maddog ffs) So YeahSSRMs for life!

[MoonUnitBeta]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Streaks recycle the mechanic from LRMs.
Its a lock on, and its a 1 button press sort of deal

Streak lock should be redone completely

I may have to disagree with you there.

I think the flight path of streaks is what could use some work. I wish they flight path was stiffer and didn’t just fall out of the launcher and splat into mechs. I’d kind of would like to see streaks stream out of the launcher too, like clan mechs, and also come with a 25m minimum arming range.
And because of the tighter flight path (which is requiring you to actually look at your target or even lead) they have a slightly tighter grouping towards the center of the mech.
I’m not really a fan of the weighted/random spray of streaks that goes to different components. So I’d really like to see that gone.

I’m kind of seeing S-SRM’s being more Aim-Assisted-SRM’s. The stiff steam of missiles would force steak boats to look at their target, before turning to mitigate damage.


I’m not sure what you’d do to streak lock to make it work differently/balance the weapon itself. Because that also raises the issue of how you differentiate LRM lock from Streak lock. Unless streak lock redo also means an LRM lock redo, but I don’t think that’s necessary.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 16 July 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

MoonUnitBeta, on 16 July 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

I may have to disagree with you there.

I think the flight path of streaks is what could use some work. I wish they flight path was stiffer and didn’t just fall out of the launcher and splat into mechs. I’d kind of would like to see streaks stream out of the launcher too, like clan mechs, and also come with a 25m minimum arming range.
And because of the tighter flight path (which is requiring you to actually look at your target or even lead) they have a slightly tighter grouping towards the center of the mech.
I’m not really a fan of the weighted/random spray of streaks that goes to different components. So I’d really like to see that gone.

I’m kind of seeing S-SRM’s being more Aim-Assisted-SRM’s. The stiff steam of missiles would force steak boats to look at their target, before turning to mitigate damage.


I’m not sure what you’d do to streak lock to make it work differently/balance the weapon itself. Because that also raises the issue of how you differentiate LRM lock from Streak lock. Unless streak lock redo also means an LRM lock redo, but I don’t think that’s necessary.

Well thats fairly easy, you dont really need to decouple the lock, just give streak missiles a very bad turn speed and pretty high velocity, then get rid of the bone targeting and make them hit with LRM/SRM-like spread. Would dramatically improve them vs heavy mechs and make them much worse against lights.

I also think they should sod the timeline and give IS streak 4 and 6 in some form. It seems like a no brainer to me.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 July 2015 - 01:46 PM.

[Lightfoot]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

I want MW4's fire-and-forget mechanic for SSRMs. Then I can target individual sections with homing missiles! Suddenly SSRMs are useful against not only Lights! Since I have to aim at the particular section in the first place, the Church of Skill should have no issues, right?

You want MechWarrior 3 SSRMs. They had such a wide turning radius Light mechs could dodge them easily and Assaults not very well. That allows SSRMs to be moderately good damage, not as good as SRMs, but have normal lock-on and homing instead of the fuzzy dice roll targeting mechanic they use now.

Edited by Lightfoot, 16 July 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 July 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Well thats fairly easy, you dont really need to decouple the lock, just give streak missiles a very bad turn speed and pretty high velocity, then get rid of the bone targeting and make them hit with LRM/SRM-like spread. Would dramatically improve them vs heavy mechs and make them much worse against lights.

I also think they should sod the timeline and give IS streak 4 and 6 in some form. It seems like a no brainer to me.

Oh. See that's kinda what I was suggesting, change flight path/the actual behaviour of the missiles. I guess that could be what Tennex meant as well. It makes sense because I don't know what changing how the reticle locks on would make a difference. lol

[bad arcade kitty]

Lugh, on 16 July 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

But if you follow the PGIsms to the conclusion Current BAP is 240m to allow lock ons for mechs with 180m ECM, which is 60m further than the ECM. So if ECM goes to 90m then BAP should go to 150m for a net result in No change whatsoever to the effectiveness of BAP for streak boats.

ecm prevents locks from further than 1/4 radar range and slow down locks in the band between 1/4 radar range and the radius of its bubble by two

that functionality isn't touched and bap largely counters it, that's why nerfing bap together with nerfing ecm umbrella would cause a buff to the personal ecm usage

read this thread and the feedback thread

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 16 July 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[LordNothing]

stjobe, on 16 July 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Perhaps it's lostech to MWO, but in the BattleTech universe, all missiles except MRMs are guided missiles.


(Tech Manual, p.229)

Yep, SRMs are guided, and Streaks are just SRMs that refuse to fire until all tubes have a good lock.

guided != fire and forget.

fire and forget means that once the missile is locked on and fired, you are done with it, you dont need to hold lock, the missile will home in entirely of its own devices.

guided simply means that the missile is under active control. you still need to relay targeting information to the missile for it to know where it needs to go. which means something needs to be painting the target, you, another mech, a narc beacon, etc. in the case of srms, being self guided pretty much means its holding its course.