73 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

At least change the reward system so "Scouting", "Flanking", "TAG", "NARC", "Protected Light" bonuses are worth risking life and limb for. Then we will see more Lights.

Same thing for AMS. If people wants instant gratification in order to mount them, give AMS C-Bill bonus per missile shot down.

Yeah, I dunno. If there were a match reward overhaul for lights, they would have to be insane bonuses to offer much temptation - for me anyways.

I play lights to out knife-fight my enemies. I love slowly tearing apart an assault, knowing that just one solid hit will end me, yet keeping a cool head as I can see it's ponderous frustration rising while I stab lasers deeper and deeper into it with each pass... sounds kind of disturbing, actually.

To me, lights are stealthy killers. They're sharks in shallow water, a glittering blade in the dark. They aren't cash cows. There comes a point where money holds far less meaning to a player, so what will happen if the big drawcard of lights, is money - and experienced players don't need it? Will light mechs head further down the path of past titles, where they were little more than fodder?

I love that lights in MWO have an actual purpose as the paper to an assault's rock, other than being a means to a bigger end for new players. I worry that they'll end up irrelevant, outside of comp matches where they are forced to be taken.

[El Bandito]

Kiiyor, on 16 July 2015 - 02:49 AM, said:

Yeah, I dunno. If there were a match reward overhaul for lights, they would have to be insane bonuses to offer much temptation - for me anyways.

I play lights to out knife-fight my enemies. I love slowly tearing apart an assault, knowing that just one solid hit will end me, yet keeping a cool head as I can see it's ponderous frustration rising while I stab lasers deeper and deeper into it with each pass... sounds kind of disturbing, actually.

To me, lights are stealthy killers. They're sharks in shallow water, a glittering blade in the dark. They aren't cash cows. There comes a point where money holds far less meaning to a player, so what will happen if the big drawcard of lights, is money - and experienced players don't need it? Will light mechs head further down the path of past titles, where they were little more than fodder?

I love that lights in MWO have an actual purpose as the paper to an assault's rock, other than being a means to a bigger end for new players. I worry that they'll end up irrelevant, outside of comp matches where they are forced to be taken.

10x bonus to "Protected Light". Done

As long as MWO's matches are kill based, and not objective based, Lights will stay less relevant.

[Alistair Winter]

Their track record is not good. I am not very optimistic. But this time, I'll wait and see what they have in mind before I make my verdict.

To be honest, I was fairly sure PGI's stance on role warfare and information warfare was basically "We already did that. It's called modules and ECM. Stop complaining!"

... so compared to my original expectations, at least they're saying some of the right things now. It just remains to be seen if they'll do the right things.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

all are screaming maps are too small. It doesnt matter. Everytime, all walks to one place, and there is YOLO. So no matter if you do maps 100 km x 100 km, it will ends in one single point. And honestly i rly hate being mplaced with my assaults on alpine, and walk to the fightcore 7 minutes of 15, then being demolished in 30 secs. This isnt fun.

Edited by Titannium, 16 July 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Role Warfare will be embraced by the team/group players and they will excel

Those that are not team based players will want it changed/removed.

[oldradagast]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 July 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Role warfare in this game is a joke. MWO is nothing more then, Grab the biggest mech with the most above the head high energy hardpoints, slap in as many MPL/LPL as you can, put them all in 1 fire group and shoot till you die. Its almost as boring as World of Warships.....

I find that last part hilariously inaccurate since at least in WoWS, you have actual scouting, maps that are large enough for position to matter, and combats that actually last long enough for the ships to feel like tough war machines vs. in MWO, where the matches consist of people hiding behind rocks and poking each other with super-accurate, perfect convergence weapons until somebody dies like an egg smashed by a hammer. If you make a mistake in WoWS, you can usually recover - in MWO, mistakes, or even doing the right thing, will often get you killed faster than you can react, especially now with improved HSR. That's makes for boring "hide behind a rock" game play and helps kill any hint of role warfare.

To each their own, of course, but I'll gladly say in public that WoWS has far more role warfare than MWO has ever had and far more accurate "feel" of what they are representing than MWO has (warships vs. mechs.) Finally, WoWS actually has maps of the appropriate size for the encounter. And it's still in Open Beta, while MWO has been released for closing on 2 years... lol... ugh...

Edited by oldradagast, 16 July 2015 - 03:26 AM.

[Rasc4l]

Darian DelFord, on 15 July 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

Further more until they change the way LoS and Radar detection work so a Locust does not give off the same damn signal that a 100 ton mech does... Sorry I just see Role Warfare and I laugh at it. To put it into the game as it was originally designed would be a massive overhaul to key systems. I am, IMHO, opinion afraid of the band **** they are going to bring out

You're very much right that Locust shouldn't have the same sensor image as a large assault. But fixing this doesn't require a massive overhaul. For example, my earlier suggestion would be a rather straightforward fix.

[MeiSooHaityu]

This is my hangup about the whole roll warfare thing.

PGI is hoping to boost the light queue by giving the Light mechs true scouting and info gathering capabilities while taking some of that away from other classes.

It sounds good on the surface, but people play this game to destroy their opponents. It feels good to attack and destroy mechs and their components. That is why people like the Heavy and Assault heavy hitters so much.

Is the ability to target an enemy faster or at longer ranges really going to make people WANT to give up their heavy hitter, destroy stuff mech? I'm really sceptical.

I feel that unless info gathering pays better on average than fighting, you won't encourage people to take more light mechs.

If you want players to sacrifice their ability to inflict heavy damage and destroy for info gathering, they need to be adequately compensated for that.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Rasc4l, on 16 July 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

You're very much right that Locust shouldn't have the same sensor image as a large assault. But fixing this doesn't require a massive overhaul. For example, my earlier suggestion would be a rather straightforward fix.

I didn't really consider a stealth aspect to light mechs vs heavier mechs. I think that would help aid as an incentive to take lights. If lights were harder to detect and it was easier for them to sneak a round and do damage, that would improve their appeal (a long with better info gathering).

[Darian DelFord]

Top 5 things to Make Lights Matter in this game

1. Reduce Radar Signature
2. Far Better UAV, Scouting, Protected Lights, and Hit and Run C-Bill and XP Bonus (Just reduce the timers on the latter)
3. Larger maps, I am sorry but when you have 12 enemy mechs on the field on these maps the chances of the enemy seeing the light and taking it out are FAR GREATER
4. Increase the agility of the lights specifically Jump Jets and toro twist acceleration and deceleration
5. REDUCE the Agility of most Heavy and Assault Mechs specifically their toro tiwst speed and arc.

Currently Lights are the bottom tier of class in this game, there have been so many direct and indirect nerfs to lights its not even funny. EVERY class should be fun to play and be able to make C-Bills XP and be ENJOYED. Right now even seasoned players are becoming frustrated. As a point of fact last night I took out my Hellbringinger. 3 Matches all wins I made more C-Bills than in 5-6 matches as a light. The difference was really staggering to me (I do not play non lights very often)

I would love to see role warfare in this game, At the same time though I do not want to see light mechs reduced to just "scouts" and not be able to keep the assault population in check.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 16 July 2015 - 04:58 AM.

[tucsonspeed6]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 July 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

It sounds good on the surface, but people play this game to destroy their opponents. It feels good to attack and destroy mechs and their components. That is why people like the Heavy and Assault heavy hitters so much.

Too true. This is the same reason why asymmetric matches of 10 clan v 12 IS with no other balancing or BV based matchmaking are terrible ideas. If you were guaranteed to face a weaker enemy and statistically get more kills, why wouldn't you take the most powerful mech?

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Darian DelFord, on 16 July 2015 - 04:57 AM, said:

5. REDUCE the Agility of most Assault Mechs specifically their toro tiwst speed and arc.

you must be joking there. then I say, reduce speed of lights to 2/3.

[Weeny Machine]

Kiiyor, on 16 July 2015 - 02:49 AM, said:

Yeah, I dunno. If there were a match reward overhaul for lights, they would have to be insane bonuses to offer much temptation - for me anyways.

I play lights to out knife-fight my enemies. I love slowly tearing apart an assault, knowing that just one solid hit will end me, yet keeping a cool head as I can see it's ponderous frustration rising while I stab lasers deeper and deeper into it with each pass... sounds kind of disturbing, actually.

...and then you get a missile warning and you need to break off or get destroyed. Too bad you eat damage while withdrawing

...and then the budy of the enemy fires some shots in your direction which are enough to cripple you


Don't get me wrong, I love to play light mechs but that is how most often the reality looks like.

[Darian DelFord]

Titannium, on 16 July 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

you must be joking there. then I say, reduce speed of lights to 2/3.

The few exceptions to this rule are the Dire Wolf and Stalker

I am sorry but when a heavy or an assault can torso twist as quick as they do and be able to face 180 behind them before a light can get a 2nd barrage off there is a problem. The problem is folks want to play BIG STOMPY ROBOTS THAT CAN TWIST QUICKLY. They do not just want to play BIG STOMPY ROBOTS. On a Skill vs Skill assault player I will get 1 barrage off behind them before I am facing his weapons. Trying to stay behind an assault is difficult at best at the moment. Why? Because their toro twist speed and arc is to quick and great. That is why the stalkers and Dires have such a hard time with lights, because that twist and arc is right where it needs to be. There are exceptions to this rule the Vicotr mainly its suppose to be agile.

This has been a problem for a very long time. There are multiple reasons that the light queue stays below 10% most days now, those 5 I listed are the main reasons.

All light have for protection right now is speed and agility. However the heavier chassis can be just as agile as most lights. THAT needs to be addressed.

Every chassis should be fun and enjoyable to play. However the entire light class has become more and more frustrating to play. Seriously go win 5 matches as a light then 5 as a heavy compare your Cbills your XP gained as well as the amount of work you really had to do and tell me who comes out on top every time. Simply put the heavies are the best class in the game.

I am seriously going to start uploading vids showing just how much work a good light pilot has to due to help his team win and the pathetic earnings we get because of it.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 16 July 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Darian DelFord, on 16 July 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

The few exceptions to this rule are the Dire Wolf and Stalker

I am sorry but when a heavy or an assault can torso twist as quick as they do and be able to face 180 behind them before a light can get a 2nd barrage off there is a problem. The problem is folks want to play BIG STOMPY ROBOTS THAT CAN TWIST QUICKLY. They do not just want to play BIG STOMPY ROBOTS. On a Skill vs Skill assault player I will get 1 barrage off behind them before I am facing his weapons. Trying to stay behind an assault is difficult at best at the moment. Why? Because their toro twist speed and arc is to quick and great. That is why the stalkers and Dires have such a hard time with lights, because that twist and arc is right where it needs to be. There are exceptions to this rule the Vicotr mainly its suppose to be agile.

This has been a problem for a very long time. There are multiple reasons that the light queue stays below 10% most days now, those 5 I listed are the main reasons.

All light have for protection right now is speed and agility. However the heavier chassis can be just as agile as most lights. THAT needs to be addressed.

Every chassis should be fun and enjoyable to play. However the entire light class has become more and more frustrating to play. Seriously go win 5 matches as a light then 5 as a heavy compare your Cbills your XP gained as well as the amount of work you really had to do and tell me who comes out on top every time. Simply put the heavies are the best class in the game.

I am seriously going to start uploading vids showing just how much work a good light pilot has to due to help his team win and the pathetic earnings we get because of it.

Very well said. It is hard to get a 2nd salvo at the back of most assault, in case of heavy you hardly have the chance, if the pilot know what he is doing. Now add that often the assault or heavy can get help soon because most of the maps aren't that large or that LRMs are flying in your direction (if you play a non-ECM light)

[Murphy7]

That, and I am less certain that hit registration and home state rewind have been fixed so much as made more wide open. I get killed in my light and spectate some of my teammates, who are able to fire BEHIND the enemy lights and score consistent hits. It's like a reverse lag shield - it doesn't much matter that the light pilot is juking or maneuvering if you can fire where they were a second ago and score good hits.

I need to figure out how to run video capture while in a match so I can demonstrate this. Maybe someone else on the forums has seen his behavior and already has the captures?

[Dracol]

Nightingale27, on 16 July 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

It especially comes down to luck because in pug queue for SOME REASON you know the enemies' builds better than your teams, so you can't really come up with a plan that would suit the team's need for sure. So it falls down to personal performance... and hope that your team does the same.

I could not agree with your point more.

Some sort of indicator to give a general idea of what your teammates are running on the initial start board / tab screen would be enough for me.
Majority of a mech's weapons are ERLL, Gauss, ERPPC, PPCs? Put a capitol S by the pilots name
Mostly LRMs? Put a capitol L
Mixed bag? Pilot has a G
Small Pulse build? K for knifefighter.... actually icons would be better.

That along would be so useful. You'd know if you just dropped with 3 LRM assualts, or a brawler heavy team.

Murphy7, on 16 July 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

That, and I am less certain that hit registration and home state rewind have been fixed so much as made more wide open. I get killed in my light and spectate some of my teammates, who are able to fire BEHIND the enemy lights and score consistent hits. It's like a reverse lag shield - it doesn't much matter that the light pilot is juking or maneuvering if you can fire where they were a second ago and score good hits.

I need to figure out how to run video capture while in a match so I can demonstrate this. Maybe someone else on the forums has seen his behavior and already has the captures?

FYI Spectator mode is not accurate. What u see is not necessarily what they see.

Bush Hopper, on 16 July 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Very well said. It is hard to get a 2nd salvo at the back of most assault, in case of heavy you hardly have the chance, if the pilot know what he is doing. Now add that often the assault or heavy can get help soon because most of the maps aren't that large or that LRMs are flying in your direction (if you play a non-ECM light)

I find the key to taking out a mech via back attacks is hit and run. Blast the armor away first then scatter. Come back 30 secs to a minute later when their attention is diverted then finish the job.

[Darian DelFord]

Dracol, on 16 July 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

I could not agree with your point more.

Some sort of indicator to give a general idea of what your teammates are running on the initial start board / tab screen would be enough for me.
Majority of a mech's weapons are ERLL, Gauss, ERPPC, PPCs? Put a capitol S by the pilots name
Mostly LRMs? Put a capitol L
Mixed bag? Pilot has a G
Small Pulse build? K for knifefighter.... actually icons would be better.

That along would be so useful. You'd know if you just dropped with 3 LRM assualts, or a brawler heavy team.


FYI Spectator mode is not accurate. What u see is not necessarily what they see.


I find the key to taking out a mech via back attacks is hit and run. Blast the armor away first then scatter. Come back 30 secs to a minute later when their attention is diverted then finish the job.

Indicator of your teams range would be a good idea +1

The 30 second thing does not work like you think. even if you do hit and run tactics the best you can hope for is to distract him enough to have him out of the match, which is a win for you. However with the size of the maps he will have backup very quickly depending on how many mechs are left in the match.

The higher you climb the ELO tree the more difficult it is to get a 2nd shot on an assault or a heavy. If they have seismic you can about forget it. Lights have been pigeon holed into their load outs, very very little variety amongst them compared to the heavier chassis..

As my OP stated I fear for the upcoming "Role Warfare" changes as I think its just going to be yet another bandaid fix just like quirks were. Look at the utter failure that was.

[Dracol]

Darian DelFord, on 16 July 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

The 30 second thing does not work like you think. even if you do hit and run tactics the best you can hope for is to distract him enough to have him out of the match, which is a win for you. However with the size of the maps he will have backup very quickly depending on how many mechs are left in the match.

Well... it works for me. At least pre HSR changes. Been having fun in my Spider 5D PPC build since the change so might not be as viable anymore.

[Lugh]

Darian DelFord, on 16 July 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

The few exceptions to this rule are the Dire Wolf and Stalker

I am sorry but when a heavy or an assault can torso twist as quick as they do and be able to face 180 behind them before a light can get a 2nd barrage off there is a problem. The problem is folks want to play BIG STOMPY ROBOTS THAT CAN TWIST QUICKLY. They do not just want to play BIG STOMPY ROBOTS. On a Skill vs Skill assault player I will get 1 barrage off behind them before I am facing his weapons. Trying to stay behind an assault is difficult at best at the moment. Why? Because their toro twist speed and arc is to quick and great. That is why the stalkers and Dires have such a hard time with lights, because that twist and arc is right where it needs to be. There are exceptions to this rule the Vicotr mainly its suppose to be agile.

This has been a problem for a very long time. There are multiple reasons that the light queue stays below 10% most days now, those 5 I listed are the main reasons.

All light have for protection right now is speed and agility. However the heavier chassis can be just as agile as most lights. THAT needs to be addressed.

Every chassis should be fun and enjoyable to play. However the entire light class has become more and more frustrating to play. Seriously go win 5 matches as a light then 5 as a heavy compare your Cbills your XP gained as well as the amount of work you really had to do and tell me who comes out on top every time. Simply put the heavies are the best class in the game.

I am seriously going to start uploading vids showing just how much work a good light pilot has to due to help his team win and the pathetic earnings we get because of it.

This whole statement is extremely curious to me as I don't have trouble staying behind Dires and Stalkers in ANY mech, let alone the speedy ones. The trouble I have in the lights especially is OVERRUNNING the dart behind them and getting caught in a counter turn. That is the difference in skill on his side vs the equivalent LACK on my side.