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Just Read Paul's Cc Post And "role Warfare"


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#41 Revis Volek

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 08:06 AM

View PostFlipOver, on 15 July 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

I've been saying this for a loooong time.

The maps we have today range between small and smaller.

The size of maps like the old RC or Caustic or any other of the earlier maps are good if you play 4v4, but too small for 8v8 or 12v12.

All of those maps need to be larger but then we get to maps like Canyon Network or Alpine or any of the other ones. They all need to be larger too if we want a 12v12 match to really need scouting and strategy.

As they are now, it's too easy to predict the enemies movements due to lack of options on their part, since they don't have many places to go... It's also possible to have LoS on the enemy in less than 20 secs into the game... and that, I'm sorry to say, breaks all the immersion one might try to get from a military strategy game.



This is not a military strategy game, dunno why or where you got that idea and im pretty sure they dont try to make it that way.

If thats what you are looking for you wont find it here.

#42 Fate 6

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 08:34 AM

Role warfare exists in comp drops. The issue in PUG drops is that 80% of pilots are incompetent

#43 Lugh

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 08:37 AM

View PostFate 6, on 16 July 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

Role warfare exists in comp drops. The issue in PUG drops is that 80% of pilots are incompetent

So one of your lance mates is incompetent too? If you are solo dropping you should count on 90% of the team being incompetent

Edited by Lugh, 16 July 2015 - 08:37 AM.


#44 Chuck Jager

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 08:39 AM

We have 4 weight classes with many mechs that are not equal amongst the classes with even more build and player skill level that affect any pug Q. If more roles are introduced they could only be enforced by making it part of the mechs abilities or you will have a substandard damage dealer. We already have enough of those as is. In a pve situation this could be easily remedied by making straight up combat less effective than going for the objective.

I see so much cool space on all the maps. It is not PGI, but the players that continue to go to the same spot like lemmings (except for that one snowy mountain lol). People like predictable.

Edited by Chuck YeaGurr, 16 July 2015 - 09:31 AM.


#45 Midax

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 08:46 AM

We need map features that provide concealment, not just cover. Also differing mechs should have different sensor and sensor profiles.

#46 Digital Pseudonym

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 09:47 AM

Wow ... after reading this thread this game must be pretty **** .... pity I was starting to enjoy it !

#47 stjobe

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 10:14 AM

I'll just repost this from an old thread, since it seems relevant:


It takes an elited KGC with a stock engine 2 seconds to turn and twist enough to fire directly behind (180 degrees):

Arm yaw 120 degrees @ 60 degrees/s = 2 seconds.
Turning 60 degrees @ 34 degrees/s = 1.8 seconds.

Since he's turning and twisting at the same time, only the longest time will count, so in 2 seconds, he's firing 180 degrees from where he was pointing when he started.

If that's not too fast for a 100-tonner, I don't know what.

It takes 1.6 seconds for an elited stock-engined AS7-D to turn, twist, and arm yaw enough to fire at least one arm 180 degrees behind it. I.e. Faster than the KGC, but only with one arm. For full alpha it'll take 2.5 seconds to turn completely around.

Just for reference, in 2 seconds a 171 kph (47.5 m/s) Commando moves 95 metres.

At a range of 50 metres, moving perpendicular to the target, that's an angle change of 144 degrees, or 72 degrees/s - well within the torso + arm twist speed of most heavies and assaults, and even within the torso twist speed alone for most heavies and some assaults.

#48 CancersCincar

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 10:34 AM

Personally, here's what I think.

Look up a game called MW:LL, realize it's a mod for one of the Crysis games made by passionate people running off of donations or without pay, includes vehicles, helicopters, jets, 'mechs, passive/active radar, etc etc. and wonder why PGI, a full fledge company, wasn't able to make similar.

It's not like I hate MWO, but if MWO had a little bit more MW:LL I don't think people would be mad.

#49 Fate 6

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 10:43 AM

View PostLugh, on 16 July 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

So one of your lance mates is incompetent too? If you are solo dropping you should count on 90% of the team being incompetent
80% of all pilots in the game, not necessarily in a given drop. Most of the pilots on the forums are terrible. Even half the ones that talk intelligently pilot like crap.

#50 Nyden

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 10:48 AM

View PostDigital Pseudonym, on 16 July 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Wow ... after reading this thread this game must be pretty **** .... pity I was starting to enjoy it !



You must be new here.

The core game play of MWO is good/different enough to keep the servers populated but it's a far cry from what was advertised during closed beta. The goal with role warfare and information warfare was to make all mech classes equally viable rather than a straight progression from light to assault. PGI has failed miserably so far.

ECM didn't make lights more viable, or make scouting more necessary, it made any mech with ecm worth it's weight in gold. If you're a light with ecm than you have a responsibility to stay with the murder ball and protect the group, If your a light without ecm than it's really dangerous to leave the ecm bubbled murder ball as you don't have the armor to take even one alpha from an assault. If you can see the enemy murder ball your probably on their radar so start dodging LRM's (at least lights have that advantage). With both groups basically traveling in murder balls (in no small part due to the ecm bubble) scouting is really unnecessary as first contact with any enemy basically means you've found the entire group and you best be under an ecm bubble of your own when you do.

Sending a few mechs to flank the enemy is usually a death sentence for your whole team as your murder ball will be less effective than theirs (due to less fire power) and your flankers will generally get wiped as soon as they poke their heads out from around cover, because they'll immediately pop up on enemy radar.

TL;DR The addition of ecm, in it's current form, was a half baked attempt to make lights more viable. It actually made the game less tactically diverse. Information warfare currently boils down to bringing enough counters to ecm to be effective against it. The fact is ECM is the single most important 2 tons you could ever put on a mech and that needs to change.


Changing radar so that it has passive and active modes and making it so that radar contact isn't automatic to all mechs in line of sight would go a lot farther to promoting information warfare and more advanced tactics. ECM has needed to change since it was first implemented.

#51 Weeny Machine

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 10:57 AM

View PostNyden, on 16 July 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:



You must be new here.

The core game play of MWO is good/different enough to keep the servers populated but it's a far cry from what was advertised during closed beta. The goal with role warfare and information warfare was to make all mech classes equally viable rather than a straight progression from light to assault. PGI has failed miserably so far.

ECM didn't make lights more viable, or make scouting more necessary,


True. Especially when a non-ECM light mech scouts and comes into the firing field of the ECM hidden murderball. Then it gets either crippled or dies outright. Seismic helps soooo much. Which is dumb because it is pretty expensive

#52 Light-Speed

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:05 AM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 16 July 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

I dont run meta mechs. Ofc, I have a hard time building any other builds I would dare take into a game. I mainly run my WHK, it had 4x LPL on it, since, well, that is an insanely effective build, chain fire, dual fire, idk, it racked me up a number of kills and some nice damage numbers 600-800, 2-4 kills....it worked well. But now ive been running 4x CERPPC Warhawk simply because I like the WHK with its 4x CERPPC. ITs been working better since the buff.

I wont lie, I find the all laser meta boring as **** to. Its why I for one, dont play this game much, as I find its style boring overall, just alpha all the lasers, and its hard to come up with a build that is non laser vomit that would be decent at all. SRMs and LRMs in general are kinda crap, cannons, esp CUAC, I think are meh, aside form the DWF AC boat. PPC, on any mech but a WHK, or something with nice speed quirks is meh....

That's a building problem on your part... can't really tell you much but try to experiment a lot.
Ask yourself what you want to build, think about the specialty of weapons, and go from there I guess.
IMO all the weapons on the weapons list have some useful application, though stuff like flamers and machine guns are a bit situational/not useful in all circumstances and therefore so loved.

SRMs is not useless but requires a different playstyle compared to PPCs.
Cannons are superior to lasers in terms of not spreading damage, heat generation, and a bit on the facetime side.
It's all about the results in the end though.

Do try to not underestimate heat though. Anything less than 40% heat is going to absolutely suck when you can't put cover between you and the enemy.

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 16 July 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

Plus, with the alphas, its hard to run anything but an assault, since they atleast might survive 1 alpha. Took my HBR out in a CW match, itgot face planted in like 3 blasts from a 6LL Stalker. Arm gone, CT stripped, other torso stripped....SCR, despite everyone claiming its so durable, I find it to get killed real quick. WHK, ive had it take a fe hits, but lately, even with twisting and moving, it just melts.....no amount of twisting or anything will make it live. Plus, with the way heat vs sustainable output is, once the enemy has you in thier sights, nothing you do will let you get away. Then with high ass alphas, your just dead.

Im bad with lights, and with the way alphas are, lights melt in sseconds. Even ive gob smacked a number of them. Plain and simple, this game needs to start addressing the TTK.....

Maybe don't drive everything like an assault?
There are Shields called Not-Being-Where-The-Shot-Is and Immortal-Objects (fancy word for indestructible terrain) that's pretty much godlike. Torso twisting helps, but it's much better to just not be exposed to enemy fire so much. Even real life military forces rely heavily on these Godly Shields, though the latter is changed to something more like simply "Cover".

Hellbringers make much more sense if you call them ECMbringers and not heavies. Plus Stormcrow is a medium... even more reason to not charge into the open (which is the impression I am getting. don't have an idea/example of what happens that causes epic fail on your part, so can't help you much there).

Then there's lights.
I am a dedicated light pilot and I actually like the HSR fix.
Makes killing heavies even more efficient and better outcomes when I engage certain lights that exist in quantum superposition. Plus I can feel better about myself because lag shield can't take credit for those miracle survivals now.
Now that I don't still make tons of mistakes, but I don't particularly feel like I die more often than before. Open areas are still death traps for lights though.


View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 16 July 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:


Role Warfare basically CANT happen, any attempts to do anything but deathball is met with swift death.....I watch the maps in pug games. When my team splits up into groups of 2-3, 3 or 4, the game is assuredly a wipe...and it is. THe team that deathballs wins.....and yeah, takes alot of brain power to sit in a ball and shoot.......this game is just boring.

CW is a tunnel, defenders sit on the other side of the wall and shoot.....the defender that doesnt deathball loses, the defender that does wins. The attackers only win if the defenders dont deathball and decide to emply some kind of alternate strategy. THe only strat is deathball.....then melt anyone who dares poke out to shoot. Lasers do that best since they are light, small, plentiful and give great heat/dmg.


IMO there's a line between not doing a deathball and splitting up far too much. I mean, heavies and assaults have to go in groups...

Given how so many players just facetank and try to brute force the other team, it's not much of a surprise if a pug team can't handle an enemy team that have a superior deathball.

With how strategies end up failing or not being brought up due to the definition of PUG, it's not surprising how you think deathball is the only strategy. Seriously... they need to fix that...

CW is a bit hated for being a bit bland on the tactical side... Don't see much point in such large fortresses if the defenders can't really take advantage of it. 31st century combat indeed. Please, even modern weaponry will absolutely troll that kind of defense into the ground.

I disagree with your view on lasers. I feel like most of the weapons are around the same level of usefulness, it's just how it's applied in builds and combat - the results - that matter.
Though one of my favorite mech is a laser boat :D, not sure how the term laser vomit applies to lights.

#53 TWIAFU

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:05 AM

View PostNyden, on 16 July 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:


Changing radar so that it has passive and active modes and making it so that radar contact isn't automatic to all mechs in line of sight would go a lot farther to promoting information warfare and more advanced tactics. ECM has needed to change since it was first implemented.


Ability to change modes would be great! Ability to zoom in and out on mini map would be a benefit as well.

#54 Darian DelFord

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:19 AM

View PostLugh, on 16 July 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

This whole statement is extremely curious to me as I don't have trouble staying behind Dires and Stalkers in ANY mech, let alone the speedy ones. The trouble I have in the lights especially is OVERRUNNING the dart behind them and getting caught in a counter turn. That is the difference in skill on his side vs the equivalent LACK on my side.



I am referring to Dire's and Stalkers acting like assaults in regards to torso twisting. They twist correctly. This is why they have such a hard time with light mechs. And why Stalkers and Dire's are the easiest targets for lights to win against.

View Poststjobe, on 16 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

I'll just repost this from an old thread, since it seems relevant:


It takes an elited KGC with a stock engine 2 seconds to turn and twist enough to fire directly behind (180 degrees):

Arm yaw 120 degrees @ 60 degrees/s = 2 seconds.
Turning 60 degrees @ 34 degrees/s = 1.8 seconds.

Since he's turning and twisting at the same time, only the longest time will count, so in 2 seconds, he's firing 180 degrees from where he was pointing when he started.

If that's not too fast for a 100-tonner, I don't know what.

It takes 1.6 seconds for an elited stock-engined AS7-D to turn, twist, and arm yaw enough to fire at least one arm 180 degrees behind it. I.e. Faster than the KGC, but only with one arm. For full alpha it'll take 2.5 seconds to turn completely around.

Just for reference, in 2 seconds a 171 kph (47.5 m/s) Commando moves 95 metres.

At a range of 50 metres, moving perpendicular to the target, that's an angle change of 144 degrees, or 72 degrees/s - well within the torso + arm twist speed of most heavies and assaults, and even within the torso twist speed alone for most heavies and some assaults.


Thanks for posting that Jobe, I could not find it. This is mostly what I am referring to. This illustrates the one of the biggest problems between assaults and lights.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 16 July 2015 - 11:21 AM.


#55 Trev Firestorm

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:40 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 15 July 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

At least change the reward system so "Scouting", "Flanking", "TAG", "NARC", "Protected Light" bonuses are worth risking life and limb for. <_< Then we will see more Lights.

Same thing for AMS. If people wants instant gratification in order to mount them, give AMS C-Bill bonus per missile shot down.

My triple AMS Nova approves, reward me for my umbrella. (Seriously running that thing is 4.5 tons minimum dedicated to team defense instead of in weapons/heatsinks)

#56 Moldur

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:44 AM

MWO is half baked. I think we've known that for... awhile?

#57 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 01:10 PM

View PostLugh, on 16 July 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

So one of your lance mates is incompetent too? If you are solo dropping you should count on 90% of the team being incompetent



I just basically say "we lose" to myself at te start of everygame

#58 Viges

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 03:56 PM

View PostDarian DelFord, on 15 July 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

These maps are to damn small for 12v12 with the exception of Terra Therma, that is about the only map that you really do need a scout.


Yea and most people hate that map the most. That should tell you something...

Also look at cw, people just want a usual shooter, and more people we have, more will want that.

Stream is coming...

#59 Darian DelFord

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 03:59 PM

View PostViges, on 16 July 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:


Yea and most people hate that map the most. That should tell you something...

Also look at cw, people just want a usual shooter, and more people we have, more will want that.

Stream is coming...



People hate that map because of the heat, not the size.

#60 Kristian Radoulov

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 04:09 PM

So much l2play issues in this thread. lmao





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